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#101 smithspeedway

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 10:31 AM

That's too bad. 

Still, so far the conversations here and other places are focused on people and broad topics. Call me crazy, but I believe that if some concrete proposals were floated, it might turn the focus into something productive.




#102 glueside

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 05:23 PM

JK Products "Pro" identified people are contributors, not sponsored races as other manufacturers do. We do not pay any racers to use our products, whether with cash or free products. We do not sponsor racers as a policy.
 
The people we have identified as JK Pro's are those that help us technically with development, testing, new product ideas or improvements, or general input into the slot car world. As I am new to the industry, I value the input and efforts of the people that help make JK Products better. If you consider a nice shirt as payment, then I suppose they are paid, but they do not get ongoing free products or support. The shirt is simply my way of giving them some recognition and saying "thanks."

 
And you're welcome!
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Jeff Strause

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#103 Half Fast

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 08:06 PM

Call me crazy, but I believe that if some concrete proposals were floated, it might turn the focus into something productive.

 
But Matt Bruce, D2 director, did have a "concrete proposal" to change the rule regarding so-called bite bars, which would have totally eliminated this issue and crisis of leadership.
 
However the ND, in his infinite "wisdom," used a parliamentary maneuver to prevent the proposal from coming to a vote.
 
Cheers,
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#104 Zippity

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 10:40 PM

However the ND, in his infinite "wisdom," used a parliamentary maneuver to prevent the proposal from coming to a vote.

 
Care to elaborate?

#105 Half Fast

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 11:39 PM

Please see Matt's post here and the ND's at OWH.

 

Cheers


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#106 Samiam

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 11:51 PM

Who's post on OWH? :laugh2:


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Sam Levitch
 
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#107 smithspeedway

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 10:22 AM

But Matt Bruce, D2 director, did have a "concrete proposal" to change the rule regarding so-called bite bars, which would have totally eliminated this issue and crisis of leadership.
 
However the ND, in his infinite "wisdom," used a parliamentary maneuver to prevent the proposal from coming to a vote.

 
That's what I mean. The tech rules are not the problem. The process that made that possible is the problem. A thorough read of the bylaws gives the National Director the ability to do these things. This is the first issue that needs to be corrected.
 
Steve
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#108 smokie

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 11:47 AM

A little bird chirped out to me that possibly a certain "ND" had provided financial resources to a "certain" chassis builder to go into production of his chassis design. Now the "ND" has a vested interest (read 'conflict')... make the competition illegal and have domination at the parts counter.
 
There's no way to find proof or a paper trail... and obviously no one's going to admit anything. 

I say we just let it go until the USRA elections. When the new ND takes office, a change can be voted in and the problem's solved...

I'm not accusing anyone, but it sure does sound a little fishy...


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#109 Cheater

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 12:01 PM

Yes, I have heard similar rumors.

From my perspective, just electing a new ND won't go anywhere near far enough in solving the USRA's problems. YMMV.
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Gregory Wells

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#110 Samiam

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 12:07 PM

Sounds like someone is trying to pull a "Fast One."


Sam Levitch
 
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#111 gc4895

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 03:38 PM

Doing something like that would be, uh, outi-sight as far as I'm concerned.


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#112 Benno - SAC

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 04:08 PM

It is sad to see what's going on with your national association.

 

In Germany, we had two slot racing associations from the early '80s until 2004 (some will say even three), following each other. I saw them all die. Since then we didn't have any "official" nationals, incompatible rules all over the country, everything is very fragmented.

 

As I read on Slotblog, the actual situation is not much better in the US right now. So maybe you all should consider to see this as a chance. IMO you should try to preserve the USRA and to develop a basic set of rules used all over your country.

 

Beleive me, the situation without a national association is even worse.


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#113 Dallas Racer

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 05:23 PM

The new JK chassis is pretty different from previous flexi chassis. No front wheel mounts,  wo bars, with bends in them. I'm reading this thread thinking that they might be too much of a departure from the norm. That you have draw the line somewhere, or flexi chassis will end up really complex and expensive like Eurosport chassis. It seemed like the USRA might have good reason not to approve them.

 

So I've been confused by this thread. I didn't understand why everyone was getting so mad. But recent posts shine a new light on it.

 

So Ron Hershman financed the latest Mossetti chassis? Hershman stands to gain financially by disallowing the new JK chassis? And he's the one behind all of this? Why is Roger Schmitt supporting this?

 

And why is everyone so reluctant to state what's really going on? You're making it really confusing for simpletons like me. ;)


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#114 Cheater

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 05:53 PM

Phil,

 

The rumors I am hearing suggest that Roger is the guy who has helped to fund the production of the Mossetti chassis, not Ron Hershman. Whether this is accurate info or not, I do not know.


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#115 Samiam

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 06:11 PM

I think a Trump- :diablo: Bannon :diablo: comparison is not inappropriate here, considering who is involved.  :laugh2: 


With anonymous sources, backroom deals, non-elected non-appointed advisors, conflicts of interest, this comparison is quite appropriate.
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#116 Dennis David

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 06:20 PM

There's enough politics on Facebook, I don't want to have to start blocking people here as well LOL.


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#117 bbr

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 07:27 PM

Are USRA events that relevant any more?
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#118 Dennis David

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 07:40 PM

They are to the raceways that host them and spend a lot of money to spruce up their shops.

This might be devastating to a raceway like SCR.

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#119 Dallas Racer

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:14 PM

Sounds like someone is trying to pull a "Fast One."

 

Doing something like that would be, uh, outi-sight as far as I'm concerned.

 
Greg, why were these Hershman references made? And others stating that they didn't think It was Roger's own words in his post?
 
Ron has a long history of troublemaking. I don't remember reading anything negative about Roger.
 
I'm sure if anyone knows, you do. But I'm still confused.


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#120 Brinkley47

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:17 PM

So many rumors in this post. It is like a tabloid.
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#121 Samiam

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:30 PM

Greg, why were these Hershman references made? And others stating that they didn't think It was Roger's own words in his post?

 

Speaking for myself, after reading the long-winded explanation on OWH, it is obvious to anyone who has read Ron's other diatribes that this is his work. The fact that he would rather stay "out of sight" than come out and speak in the open is testimony enough that there are shenanigans afoot. 
 
Ron ruins everything.


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Sam Levitch
 
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#122 MSwiss

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 09:24 PM

FWIW, on the Saturday I hosted the F2000 Nats, when the subject of those long-winded posts came up, and someone innocently theorized it was Ron who composed the posts, there was a chorus of comments, akin to "No sh*t, Sherlock."

IOW, while there is a possibility that those posts are solely the words of Roger, anyone who knows both him and Ron, doesn't believe they were.

The whole time I was asking questions, citing the hypocrisy of the bite bar ruling when the Mossetti clearly violated the same rule, I felt as I was arguing with Ron, as Roger and I have a pretty civil relationship.

With that in consideration, and the fact I sell him stuff periodically, I avoid internet bickering with him.

That all said, I'm still waiting for the explanation from Ron, on OWH, how the USRA considers the Mossetti piece something other than a bite bar, when it functions exactly like the JK J-bar, and more importantly, it is referred to as a bar in its written rules.

From 2017 USRA Rulebook, pages 59 & 60:

u) On the Mossetti 1001, 1003, 1006 chassis... must use either .062" dia. brass tube or the M-1052 .064" stainless tube only. Must use push/body pins to retain the bar in the chassis.


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#123 Biscuit

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:27 AM

Not trying to jump in the middle and I hate to see this whole deal going on but I think someone mentioned something that has been overlooked. Maybe the "line" is being drawn?

 

There is one of these bars on most chassis in recent memory but the new JK uses two. It also cuts out completely the option of using front wheels which, while not required, are in the spirit of the chassis designs.

 

That being said I still believe it should be approved but it really is pushing the line.

 

I still remember when the first cut motor boxes came out, stamped steel chassis have evolved tremendously the last few years.

 

I bought one to try and hope this gets resolved soon...


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#124 Danny Zona

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 11:39 AM

Biscuit, do you remember in 2007 when we weren't allowed to use two bite bars on the C7?

Amazing how times have changed. LOL.

I'm sure rules are different since then.


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#125 Biscuit

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 01:07 PM

I'll never forget my experiences from the USRA Nats great times! Racers need to stick together I'm not sure which individual(s) is the root of the problem but the USRA Nats has too much prestige to just go away. The USRA has had issues for a while now and maybe an issue like this will bring all issues to light. Maybe we can get some sort of real solution that is sustainable no matter who takes office.

 

Thanks to those who have been involved in trying to make the USRA better and save it. I am for the survival of the USRA we need to revamp what we have and make it the way it should be. 

 

Unrelated topic: Group 10 needs to be NASCAR. It was always a huge class then we went to running two classes of GTP. Just called one Group 10 and run 16Ds. I see next year Group 10 is NASCAR, the way it should be. Thank you!!!


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Participation plaque champion 2011

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#126 Cheater

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:29 PM

The rumors I am hearing suggest that Roger is the guy who has helped to fund the production of the Mossetti chassis, not Ron Hershman. Whether this is accurate info or not, I do not know.


I have been privately informed that this rumor is not true, by someone whose veracity is good enough for me.
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#127 Brinkley47

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 03:11 PM

I heard a rumor there are people making tons of money in slot cars. Unfortunately, I don't believe it is true...

Let's be thankful to those willing to volunteer their time to keep this hobby successful.
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#128 old & gray

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 04:24 PM

I heard a rumor there are people making tons of money in slot cars. Unfortunately, I don't believe it is true...

Let's be thankful to those willing to volunteer their time to keep this hobby successful.

 

I heard of several people who made a small fortune running slot car tracks.

 

They all started with large fortunes. :laugh2:


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#129 Mike K

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 05:01 PM

They are to the raceways that host them and spend a lot of money to spruce up their shops.

This might be devastating to a raceway like SCR.

 

Sounds like the USRA is more relevant to the raceway owners and manufacturers rather than the racers who are supposed to be running the organization...


So much DRAMA for such small cars....
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#130 MSwiss

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 03:20 PM

For those who don't frequent OWH much, I just spotted this;

 

http://www.slotcarta...-jk-c43-chassis


Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#131 Eparison

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 03:28 PM

Let the backpeddling begin!


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#132 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 03:33 PM

For those who don't frequent OWH much, I just spotted this;

 

http://www.slotcarta...-jk-c43-chassis

 On Facebook also. I hope Tim holds his ground. The bite bar assortment should also be approved.

 

GVP



#133 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 03:56 PM

This GvP precedent must also allow a J-bar assortment from Mossetti.

 

July first - deadline to propose bylaw changes.  I would start with a LEGAL board of directors from the membership. Duty officers are a separate function such as tech directors.  Incorporation, 990 IRS filing.et al.


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#134 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 05:21 PM

This GvP precedent must also allow a J-bar assortment from Mossetti.

 

July first - deadline to propose bylaw changes. I would start with a LEGAL board of directors from the membership. Duty officers are a separate function such as tech directors.  Incorporation, 990 IRS filing.et al.

 

Yes. But only if it is OEM from Mossetti and JK.

 

GVP



#135 Dennis David

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 05:22 PM

I think it's more the prestige of holding what is still considered a major race than the extra income for this event. Having attendance take a hit because of this controversy would be very demoralizing.

Just my $0.02

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#136 Zippity

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 06:33 PM

Let the backpeddling begin!

 

Let's keep politics out of this discussion :)



#137 old & gray

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 06:51 PM

 

Let's keep politics out of this discussion :)

 

pol·i·tics
ˈpäləˌtiks/
noun

the activities associated with the governance of an area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power

 

Too late, way too late.


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#138 Fast Freddie

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 09:49 AM

GVP is right, the J-bar assortment should be allowed if only for the reason that previous bite bars of different sizes were allowed as well as the different size of tube on the Mossetti not to mention the crazy Z-bar as a last minute fix to the unreliable push/body pins. 

 

Oh and by the way since it does say "push/body pins" in the rule book that would allow the use of T-pins which are a form of "push pin."


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#139 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 01:06 PM

This would have made a great Marx brothers movie.


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#140 Samiam

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 02:36 PM

I thought it was.


Sam Levitch
 
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#141 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:32 AM

Obviously USRA needs some changes but it is the oldest and most legitimate organization in our hobby.

 

As far as the new flexi chassis, I welcome the advances made and the fact that more than one manufacturer has a competitive chassis.



#142 Cheater

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:56 AM

I would agree with the oldest...


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#143 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 03:58 PM

Obviously USRA needs some changes but it is the oldest and most legitimate organization in our hobby.
 
As far as the new flexi chassis, I welcome the advances made and the fact that more than one manufacturer has a competitive chassis.

 
The problem remains that several parties to the string of missteps that is the recent history of the USRA have no regard for the health of slot racing.
 
Here's to a fifth decade of incoherency.

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#144 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 10:41 PM

At least the members of USRA have an opportunity to vote and change things instead of being at the mercy of a "board of directors." Racers should be able to have a say in the rules since they are the ones paying to race and keep the hobby alive. I would like to see regional USRA racing again.



#145 MSwiss

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 10:59 PM

LOL.

There should be some interesting posts answering the above statement.

I bet we'll see a good one from the owner of Slotblog.

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#146 MSwiss

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:06 PM

At least the members of USRA have an opportunity to vote and change things instead of being at the mercy of a "board of directors." Racers should be able to have a say in the rules since they are the ones paying to race and keep the hobby alive.


Nine racers just paid air fare from Japan to come race at RetroPalooza under a set of rules,they didn't get to vote on.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#147 gc4895

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:10 PM

I think that's called the tyranny of the majority rule. It's an ugly and often violent system. It's why, as a reminder, we enjoy a republic. Not exactly the same as a board of directors, but you get the idea.

 

Board of directors beats mob rule. I'm just sayin'.


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#148 Half Fast

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:18 PM

At least the members of USRA have an opportunity to vote and change things instead of being at the mercy of a "board of directors." Racers should be able to have a say in the rules since they are the ones paying to race and keep the hobby alive. I would like to see regional USRA racing again.

 
Compare the 192 entries (in five classes) for RetroPalooza for 2017 to the (edit-138) total entries (edit-in nine classes) of the 2017 USRA D2 Nats!
 
Looks like the racers voted with their entry fees!
 
Cheers,


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#149 Racer36

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:13 AM

It's pretty obvious that the IRRA® rule set works. 192 entries can't be wrong. Now if we could get the same group of guys to write a set of flexi and wing car rules...


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#150 Cheater

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:50 AM

Kevin,
 
The problems with the USRA structure are these:
 
1) Racers virtually always vote to benefit only themselves and their own racing. There's little or no concern for the raceways, the industry, or the overall hobby, not to mention the other racers.
 
2) In any organization, slots or otherwise, the best results occur when there are clear goals and a vision for the future, a consensus as to where the organization is heading with actions being undertaken to achieve those goals. The USRA leadership over the past few decades has not demonstrated any significant leadership in this regard.
 
3) In organized slot racing, rules stability should be a prime directive and again, the USRA has not been very effective in either understanding that concept or adhering to it.
 
4) A critical issue in almost everything in life is communication and the USRA has historically not acted as if this is an important factor. Don't forget that communication is a two-way street; leadership has to communicate with the membership and the membership needs to have a clear and effective channel of communication with the leadership. Again, the USRA has done poorly in this regard.
 
5) The USRA has shown for many years that recognizing and archiving the accomplishments of racers who excel at USRA racing is not much of a concern. Anyone know who won the Intl-15 class at the Nats in 1990 or where to find that information?
 
5) Not sure how many racers realize how small the USRA membership is. When I twice volunteered (I was not asked to do it) to count the USRA online vote a decade or so ago ago (because no elected official was willing to take on the task), the membership number was roughly 235-240 people worldwide (and there was a surprising number of non-US members) and a significant percentage of them did not vote. I also note that the site of next year's D2 Nats was determined by exactly 38 total votes. So to consider the USRA to be a "racer run" organization is misguided. At these numbers, the vote can be unfairly influenced and IMO this has happened in the past, especially regarding the sites for future Nats events.
 
Racer36, your nice comment regarding the the IRRA® rules sorta misses the point. The success of that organization is not based solely on the rules that define the types of slot cars raced, but IMO on the overall functioning of the organization. Yes, the specific car rules are important to an extent, but the overall functioning of the organization is the more important factor. In a successful organization, just like in an internal combustion engine, all functional aspects have to be optimized: fueling, induction and exhaust, timing, ignition, etc., to achieve a well-running and powerful result. The USRA for far too long has been more akin to a one-cylinder hit-and-miss engine that misfires more often than not.
 
In my opinion, of course...


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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