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#151 Danny Zona

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:03 AM

At least the members of USRA have an opportunity to vote and change things instead of being at the mercy of a "board of directors." Racers should be able to have a say in the rules since they are the ones paying to race and keep the hobby alive. I would like to see regional USRA racing again.

 

LMAO... the main reason it's not working!

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#152 Noose

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:15 AM

The IRRA® functions well due to several factors.

  • A very clear vision of what is trying to be accomplished.
  • Stable rules enforced fairly.
  • A BoD that listens to the racers, raceway owners, and the manufacturers where a majority vote within the BoD brings results.

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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#153 Cheater

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:23 AM

LOL... that may not be what I said, but it sure is what I inferred!


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#154 Racer36

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:24 AM

The analogy of the four-cycle engine is interesting. Especially knowing that the common descriptors for the cycles is "suck, squeeze, bang, blow."

 

It would seem that the current USRA has missed a few cycles for sure.


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#155 Cheater

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:29 AM

Dennis,

 

IMO the problems are not just with the current USRA; they're endemic to the organization's structure and have been present for a long time.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#156 Racer36

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:36 AM

Greg,

 

While I have never been an active USRA member, we have used the rules as a guideline for many years. The lack of updates and clarity on the scale side serves to confirm what you are saying. I have wondered for a long time why USRA execs have not taken the time to re-write the rules in a simpler, clearer format.

 

Perhaps the answer is that there was nothing in it for them to do so?

 

Time for new blood and new attitude for sure.


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#157 Cheater

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:13 AM

While I am not currently a USRA member, I was one for almost 20 years.
 

Perhaps the answer is that there was nothing in it for them to do so?


I think that's accurate. The adage is that "Racers just want to race and have no interest in running the show."

As I have said many times, in comparing slot racing to other hobbies (competitive or not), what surprises me the most is the almost total lack of altruistic motive among the participants. So few want to work to improve/grow/benefit the hobby or to see it prosper going forward into the future. There seems to be a notable level of selfishness at every turn.
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#158 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:54 AM

Democracy is a good thing and racers deserve a say in how rules are written.

#159 Cheater

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:56 AM

Can you point us to any 1:1 racing series where that condition occurs, Kevin?

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#160 Half Fast

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:00 AM

Democracy is a good thing and racers deserve a say in how rules are written.

 
Do you think the organizations with BoDs don't listen to the racers?
 
I know the IRRA®'s BoD does.
 
Cheers,


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#161 Dallas Racer

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:09 AM

Not to disparage the IRRA® BOD, because I think you're a good group of guys doing a good job, but I think you are benefiting from Retro classes being very popular in spite of you. Paul Sterrett's vision has much more to do with Retro's success than anyone or anything else.

 

PS: Again not to nitpick, but what's up with the ® ? I just visited NASCAR's website and there's no ® in site. The ® has always struck me as pretty comical.


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#162 Noose

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:11 AM

The ® is there because IRRA® is a Registered Trademark.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#163 Half Fast

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:21 AM

IRRA® is a Registered Service Mark (registration number 4535698) with the US Patent and Trademark Office so they are entitled to use the ® symbol, while you and others are not.
 
ImageAgentProxy.jpg

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#164 Cheater

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:39 AM

Phil,
 
I am going to disagree with your first point. If the late Paul Sterrett's "vision" had the traction you believe it does, there would be other Retro organizations drawing the numbers of participants that IRRA® does and basically there aren't any others. See my last paragraph in post #150 in this thread.
 
Regarding the trademark indication, if a trademark is not protected, it can be lost. It is also helpful to let others know that IRRA® does own a trademark for its logo. When a raceway or promoter claims to be racing using IRRA® rules, the BoD wanted to have the ability to enforce that, a condition that has never existed when someone says USRA rules are being used.
 
And perhaps NASCAR doesn't feel it needs to show the ®, but there are plenty of companies who do.
 
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#165 MSwiss

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:46 AM

Everyone in Retro appreciates the late Paul Sterrett (along with Dennis Samson and Mike Steube) getting scratchbuilt inline cars on the track at a high profile raceway like BP.

But his vision seems to be closer to the hardbody racing Keith Tananka is promoting at BP, where guys are mostly building their own cars.

As important, IMO, was Mike Steube being involved early, along with PDL, and all the posting here on Slotblog, which at the time was owned by PdL, but run by Greg.


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Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#166 Dallas Racer

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:53 PM

Greg, Mike, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think there wouldn't be an IRRA® without Paul.
 
I searched all the US racing associations listed on Wiki.
 
A couple of the sites had trademark symbols in their logo in the header, but most didn't. None of them used the symbol in the rest of the content of their site. No instance of it being used in text on any of the sites.
 
I know this is not the reason you use it 100% of the time (and edit everyone's post that doesn't have it, such as this post), but it could be construed as trying to portray the IRRA® as being something bigger than it really is. A bit self important. Actually because of the editing everyone's post, it seems like an obsession. Honestly, the editing of posts to add it is kinda weird.
 
Not that any of this really matters. Everyone's happy with IRRA®. Sorry for bringing it up.


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Phil Smith ® ™


#167 Noose

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:59 PM

Phil,

 

It was done to protect the organization legally since there was an attempt by another party to use the logo. Plain and simple. Larger companies may not use the ® but can surely sue you for infringement or copyright violations.

 

My company also has a registered trademark without using the ®.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#168 tonyp

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:05 PM

As long as you officially trademark or have a registrated trade mark you have option to use it or not.

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#169 MSwiss

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:07 PM

Greg, Mike, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think there wouldn't be an IRRA®  without Paul.

 

Or K&S, slot car raceways, slot car manufacturers, whoever invented round tires, etc.

 

PS: Do you grumble on rock 'n roll websites about how dare the Rolling Stones promote themselves when Robert Johnson and Sonny Boy Williamson should get all the credit?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#170 Dallas Racer

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:22 PM

It was done to protect the organization legally since there was an attempt by another party to use the logo. Plain and simple. Larger companies may not use the ® but can surely sue you for infringement or copyright violations.

 

Thanks, Noose. That explanation makes sense.


Phil Smith ® ™


#171 Samiam

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:36 PM

Whoever invented the "slot" is responsible for all slot car racing success.


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#172 MSwiss

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:43 PM

"I'll take a Double Whopper meal... and you guys would be nothing without Ray Kroc."


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#173 Dallas Racer

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:25 PM

PS: Do you grumble on rock 'n roll websites about how dare the Rolling Stones promote themselves when Robert Johnson and Sonny Boy Williamson should get all the credit?

 
No, but the Stones don't promote themselves by criticizing the blues legends. The IRRA® has been doing exactly that to the USRA in this thread. A confident organization/person doesn't have to stoop to such small-minded tactics. Show some class, fer Christ's sake.
 
Just kidding. Seriously, just kidding. ;)


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#174 Cheater

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:34 PM

I acknowledge you're just kidding, Phil, but it's not correct to say the IRRA® has been "criticizing" the USRA in this thread.

 

None of us have been posting anything other than our personal opinions, and mine is from the perspective of someone who helped and supported the USRA for many years. Most know I published (not 'wrote') the USRA rulebook for ten out of eleven years.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#175 MSwiss

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:39 PM

No, but the Stones don't promote themselves by criticizing the blues legends. The IRRA® has been doing exactly that to the USRA in this thread. A confident organization/person doesn't have to stoop to such small-minded tactics. Show some class, fer Christ's sake.
 
Just kidding. Seriously, just kidding. ;)

 

Even though you're just kidding, go back and read this whole thread and see where we are promoting ourselves.
 
Maybe I missed it, but I don't really notice any IRRA® chest thumping until posts 141 and 144, where the poster insisted the USRA way, is the best way.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#176 smithspeedway

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:10 PM

There is still one very basic problem to solve. There is no consensus that the process is fair. The bylaws are ambiguous. Once the bylaws and process are clear, and fair... it is more difficult to take issue with the outcome. 
 
As for the mentions of other bodies, it doesn't matter. 1:1 auto racing has multiple sanctioning bodies in different, and the same genre. Each offers something different and that's desirable. In the northeast US, modified racing has taken off over the last years running on a mix of club and commercial tracks. They would not benefit from becoming more like the USRA (or any other organization) any more than the USRA would benefit from becoming like them. UIts apples to oranges.
 
This thread is on its fourth page, and no one has weighed in on whether requiring that the named committees actually be formed would help or not. I realize it's tedious. 

Nonetheless, if no one wants to do this work, then nothing will change... and everyone who refused to work on it gives tacit approval to the status quo.
 
Steve
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#177 MSwiss

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:41 PM

Steve,

While I agree the bylaws are ambiguous, and I admire your persistence, I'm not sure there are that many interested parties here on Slotblog.
 
The remaining USRA hierarchy has only responded on OWH.
 
This got started here more because JK/Tim's attempts at posting on OWH were deleted.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#178 glueside

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:40 PM

This thread is on its fourth page, and no one has weighed in on whether requiring that the named committees actually be formed would help or not. I realize it's tedious. 

Nonetheless, if no one wants to do this work, then nothing will change... and everyone who refused to work on it gives tacit approval to the status quo.

 
It won't help, plain and simple. When the national/dictator does whatever he wants to try to screw over a manufacturer that has supported slot cars for longer than he has been around the hobby. Just because this manufacturer thinks outside the box, pays what he is supposed to pay, buys the stamping and forming dies like they are supposed to, submits like they are supposed to, and then gets a poke in the end.

Definitely not right and the only way to fix it is for the dictator to resign and put people in there who actually care about the industry and not just himself.
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#179 kvanpelt

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 01:35 PM

Jeff, this is getting kind of old. :ireful3:

 

Certainly Roger is no angel and I've had issues with him as well, but he has done plenty to support this hobby. You would be hard pressed to find someone that has done more to advance high end scale racing to our area and country than he.

 

I've been involved in slots since the early 2000s and he has hosted three USRA D2 Nats, two ISRA Worlds, and countless other Masters and ISRA events than anyone else in the country over that time period. He's had one of the top raceways in the country and invested thousands in numerous top-quality Gerding tracks for us to play on. His latest Janis Nabonkins track is awesome! He's not done everything just perfectly, but who among us can claim to do that?

 

Of course he tries to make money off of us and the hobby; he would be out of business in a heartbeat if he didn't. I'm sure JK Jerry has made plenty of money off of this hobby too, and if Tim is as smart as I think he is, he will make money, too. Enough of this BS about caring or not caring for the industry, anyone in business can carry that so far until it effects the bottom line. :wave:


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#180 kvanpelt

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 03:01 PM

Soooooooo, today is the USRA deadline.

 

Question remains, will JK rejoin USRA and make all of their stuff legal again, or do we loyal JK customers take it in the shorts.

 

USRA says the new chassis can be legal if it is resubmitted. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me, seeing as all JK approved products will be effected if they don't rejoin.

 

Some of us have been loyal JK customers, what a shame it is to be treated like this!


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#181 Bernie

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 03:22 PM

Awfully quiet out there...  :o


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#182 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 10:09 AM

USRA says the new chassis can be legal if it is resubmitted. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me, seeing as all JK approved products will be effected if they don't rejoin.

 

Some of us have been loyal JK customers, what a shame it is to be treated like this!

 

The chassis was submitted and approved by everyone involved in the decision and then vetoed by the National Director. Why would a re-submission of an already-accepted (by all but one obviously-biased officer) be necessary? A frankly childish power play.

 

Blaming Tim for your "treatment" is pretty lame (no offense).


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#183 kvanpelt

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:30 PM

You may be right Pete, but I see it the same as when I was younger on the playground. Kid doesn't like when things go against him, so he takes his ball and goes home, blowing up the game for the rest of us.

 

The deal with the new chassis sucked and certainly could have been handled better, but rescinding his membership in the USRA and making all the previously approved and legal JK products illegal for future Nationals is the issue I take.

 

JK Tim has made his choice, he will need to live with that as will those of us that have loved and used JK products all these past years.

 

Maybe with the current state of affairs, concerning the USRA, will make all of this a moot point anyway.

 

:dash2:  


Kevin VanPelt
 
"Life is too short to worry about the things we cannot change. Go to work, love your family, worship your God and try to enjoy your damn life." KVP

 

 


#184 Pablo

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:22 PM

Kevin, please specify, in a factual manner, exactly how JK getting out of USRA competition has affected you.


Paul Wolcott

#185 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 01:22 PM

Kevin,

 

I see your concern and I understand how the blanket ban on JK affects those who race under USRA rules.  That said, I have often heard it argued that, inasmuch as the USRA rules only govern one event per division (the Nationals), the rulebook has no real force in other events.  I will point to Doug Bauer at PJ as having had the foresight and good sense to depart from USRA practice when the need arose in Grp 12.

 

As for the 'situation' at the USRA, if the National Director can veto the work of  several duly authorized officials acting in good faith and following the rules, then man the lifeboats 'cause this ship's going down.

 

Note: there was, once upon a time, an Ethics Committee organized by the host of Slotblog to deal with just this sort of BS.


  • Wizard Of Iz, Jason Holmes and Samiam like this

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#186 Jason Holmes

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 03:06 PM

Same thing happened with Slick 7 in wings. Just because Rudy is not cutting chassis at this time does not mean there are not chassis in stock at the shop for this year. There are over 200 chassis kits at the shop that would work great at the host track for this years Nats – GRP F, 12, and 27L 4.6 long and could be ordered by distributors but no, he's not cutting, let's just pull his plug when he has stock on hand. Sad stuff.

 

jason







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