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Hawk 7 break-in


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#1 gatormark

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 04:57 AM

OK I know what these things are Chinese-built crap but has anyone found a good way to break these in? 

I have two in my F1 cars that have a ton of time and are still running strong, then I put one in my Mossetti GTP and it lags for a second then decides to fire off, which from what I hear is not uncommon.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Mark Conner




#2 Racer36

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 05:19 AM

Use the Matt Bruce method. Ten seconds in Simple Green. Works like a charm.

Dennis Dominey

Lifelong half-assed slot racer


#3 Samiam

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 05:20 AM

There's THIS.
Sam Levitch
 
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#4 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:05 AM

Rinse the factory oil crud first. Oil the motor. Run for 5 minutes at 4.5 volts, then into the car. Avoid heat when soldering wires to the tabs. After five heats of 30 laps, and cooling in between, the times should be as good as it gets, and brushes should be seated.
 
All mine get swimming lessons however... be careful - brush hardness varies in the different batches of H7s.
 
Sometimes the lag can be corrected by running underwater for 10 seconds at 3-4 volts.

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#5 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:16 PM

Matt's Simple Green method works the fastest and does the best job. Cleans out the motor at the same time. I run them in water just 2 or 3 seconds after the Simple Green to clean the Simple Green out. Blow dry and oil. Every Retro Hawk and Hawk 7 motor has run great doing this break-in.
 
GVP
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#6 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:21 PM

How long do you reuse your Simple Green? Or do you refresh for each motor?


Eddie Fleming

#7 John C Martin

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 02:51 PM

PS... LOL. Works on 4002 PSs also... careful... 10 sec. dip or brushes will disappear...
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#8 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 03:39 PM

How long do you reuse your Simple Green? Or do you refresh for each motor?


I have used the Simple Green for three motors before I change it. But I only use a tire bottle full at a time and run the motor at about 1-1/2 volts so the stuff stays in the bottle. Caution: If you have any older Hawk series motors with the softer brushes 10 seconds max before you check them or they will be gone.
 
GVP

#9 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 03:45 PM

Just a note on Pro Slot 4002s.
 
I run them until the stock brushes are gone then put the real Goldust or BF2 in and run them until they are seated Running the stock brushes down to almost nothing seems to help the comms. 
 
GVP
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#10 gatormark

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 08:58 PM

Can ya use your method after you have run them for awhile? I have one that the lag just never got better so I replaced it tonight with a new motor.


Mark Conner

#11 Zippity

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 09:11 PM

Give it a try and report back?
 
Others will be interested in your results.  :)

#12 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:11 PM

Can ya use your method after you have run them for awhile? I have one that the lag just never got better so I replaced it tonight with a new motor.

 

Yes, 

 

You can use Matt's method even if the motor has run awhile. You just have to check it after about 5 seconds at 1-1/2 volts.

 

Also anyone that has made the mistake of using lighter fluid in these motors (the brushes don't like lighter fluid) it will make the motors better again.

 

GVP



#13 gatormark

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 04:50 AM

I have used lighter fluid and it did make it run better. Correct me if I'm wrong but Simple Green is just a form of Greased Lightning/Purple Stuff, is it not? Just real strong soap?


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#14 gatormark

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 05:02 AM

So you're saying its OK to use lighter fluid?


Mark Conner

#15 SlowBeas

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 11:42 AM

I'd like to hear more from GVP, if possible, about the use of lighter fluid. I've used it on my 4002s while breaking them in, and didn't realize it's harmful to the brushes. Never had that problem before. Then again, maybe that explains why I'm so slow.

 

Can you please offer more info, GVP?


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#16 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 01:18 PM

PS 4002 seem to be OK with lighter fluid but motor spray like Pure is much better. JK Hawk series motors appear to have a different brush material. I have never used lighter fluid on them and had them run the same. I now only use Pure or other types (R/C) of motor sprays to clean them out. I also only use Matt's method of Simple Green break-in.
 
If you like lighter fluid go ahead and keep using it. We will just keep winning races. Results are how I judge what to use. Just like the new Red Fox guides. Don't have any idea, and don't care why they work, but testing show they work so I use them. Same with the motor break-in and lighter fluid.
 
Hope that clears it up for you.
 
Regards,
GVP

#17 kvanpelt

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 01:27 PM

The late, great Monty Ohren of BOW was a big time advocate of water break-in of motors.
 
After the water break in, he would blow out the remaining water and then run the motor submerged in naphtha for 5-8 minutes. FYI, naphtha and lighter fluid are virtually the same.
 
He and his disciples were some very successful slot car racers! :victory:

Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#18 MSwiss

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 01:29 PM

Were they racing Hawk 7s?

KVP, that is the motor GVP is referencing.

 

I don't really care.

 

I just wanted to use KVP and GVP in the same sentence. LOL.


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#19 kvanpelt

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 01:49 PM

No, Mike, not Hawk 7s, but he did recommend his water and naphtha bath procedure for Falcon type motors as well.

 

As with any break-in method, your time and results may vary! :D

 

Just passing on what little I know, GVP is much more knowledgeable than I :heart:. I answered before seeing his last post.   :dash2:


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#20 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 02:23 PM

Monty and others used the naphtha to polish the comm after the water break-in. As he told me in a conversation I had with him before he passed, that was in motors with Goldust or BF brushes. The brushes in the Retro Hawks and Hawk 7 motors are not the same composition. Although they are very, very hard they seem to suck up the naphtha. And naphtha always leaves residue unlike the motor sprays which leave none.

My testing on the Retro Hawk and Hawk 7 have shown consistent superior results using Matt's Simple Green break-in, which not only breaks in the brushes, but cleans the motor, polishes the comm, and last but not least leaves the motor smelling good :dance3: .

On Hawk and Hawk 6 motors with real endbells and motor brushes Monty's way would probably be just fine. if you go some where and get pure naphtha. But thanks to the government the lighter fluid of today is not what it once was. According to the feds lighter tluid contains terpene or terpenoid oil, short chain alcohol, water, a surfactant, and a thickening agent. :)
 
I have a question for you. Are built motors (C-can) allowed to use aluminum endbells in your flat track series?
 
Regards,

GVP


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#21 kvanpelt

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 02:30 PM

Thanks, GVP!

 

Yes, aluminum endbells are allowed in GLISRA classes, as are ball bearings in the endbell.


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#22 kvanpelt

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 02:37 PM

With the Simple Green break in, are you using the ready for use formula or the concentrated?


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#23 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 04:45 PM

Kevin,

 

I use use the stuff in the spray bottle. I believe that is the ready to use.

 

GVP



#24 Zippity

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 04:49 PM

The following are a series of "clips" from the late Monty Ohren in response to questions posted on OWH:
 

Motor break-in
 
I go about 45 seconds at 3-4 volts for all motors. Typical current draws immediately after drying the motor are summarized below. Most of the variance can be traced to timing differences.

16D - 2 - 5 amps
S16D- 3 - 6 "
Gr 12- 4 - 7 "
Gr 15- 3 - 6 "
Opens- 4 - 9 " well, opens do vary a lot by windings...
 
Radius the brushes so the break-in time is shorter. I don't even oil the bushings. With Goldust brushes, I run the motor at 3V. for 45 seconds in water. Check the brushes for full contact. If needed, run another 20 seconds. If using Parma brushes, run 10-15 seconds only in water. If you run them longer you will use them up. If all looks good, spray with Pure to clean everything, reassemble, oil bushings, put 2-3 drops naphtha on the comm, and run again at 3V for 30 seconds and go racing.

Not using a tool to radius the brushes will extend the time in the water and wear the comm more before full contact. Don't worry about oiling cause oil in the water makes a mess and the short time in the water won't hurt anything.

I did same day back to back testing, truing the comm both times, using the same brushes, same car, dry vs. water break-in and it was worth a tenth on a 144 ft. Hillclimb. It also lasted longer before needing a rebuild.(slowing)

I thank Monty at BOW for talking me into trying water. He da man on motors... As for amp draw, the higher the timing, the more the draw. Thats the main differance in draw! Try a rotor in both extremes and you will see!
Did I leave anything out?
 
Guys, Phil is right on in every respect. The only difference I see is that I use compressed air to remove the water, but the bit of naphtha afterwards probably displaces any that might remain.

I've become faily convinced over the last two years that most of my customers who complain that the motors run faster when I rebuild them as opposed to when they do it, are simply not following the procedure, or are messing it up by breaking the motors in their way, after I've already done it!

This applies to BOW motors new in the package too, racers. Just run them. We do a water break-in of every motor we build or rebuild here, every time, no fail.

The next time y'all go to a big race and hear motors whining away on power supplies for many minutes on end, you can do as I do: laugh quietly to yourself, and know that the extra tenth Phil just mentioned is reserved for the other guys who did it right
 
Monty, would you also use the water break-in with Falcons, Cheetahs and other non-rebuildable motors?
 
Yes. Any motor, any application.
 
If it weren't for cavitation (more in a minute), there would be no arcing at all in a liquid medium. Zammy's estimate of a 90% reduction is probably conservative. All you really need to do is take a magnifier to the comm after a water break-in, but before the finishing touch of naphtha. You will only see more clean copper than you ever thought possible in a comm track.

Actually looking at the motor in a clear tumbler while revving underwater, you will see a few small sparks (far less than normal running on a power supply in open air) which can only be occurring in air or a vacuum space. The visible arc, remember, consists of air or brush/comm materials heated past the vapor state of matter to the plasma state. In a plasma state, molecules are coming apart (electrons being stripped from the nuclei) to form an ionized, and therefore conductive (albeit rarefied) mass. Mura's motor pioneer, Bob Green, many times assured me that the plasma state existing between the brush and the comm was in fact the greatest explanation of a brushes lubricity, and furthur stated that it was therefore close to impossible to have too much spring tension.

The act of forming vacuum spaces in a liquid medium is called cavitation, which should be familiar as the active force in ultrasonic cleaning processes. The brush wears extremely fast in this environment, thus the short time required to fully adjust to the comm diameter. At the same time, deposits, whether from the brushes or made from vaporized comm material, simply don't stick and are flushed away. The brushes, while now perfectly shaped, still need that revving in naphtha to form the protective and lubricious glazed surface we all recognize as a fully broken in surface.

Mike, have you actually tried doing a motor this way? I sense this unspoken aversion to the idea (although I hope I'm wrong) but really, there is no risk at all except for the time taken to freshen up one motor. Do it, and tell us your observations, which I'm sure will be honest but valuable to most of the readers here who most certainly do regard you as an authority on the subject of slotcar motors. Me, too!
 
... on one point in particular. When I mention finishing with naphtha, I do mean a few short squirts on the comm while the motor is running, usually at least at 4 volts and briefly, up to 6 volts, where I then take note of the current draw. This procedure takes me no more than 30 seconds or so. I do use a fine tip spray nozzle backed by 100 PSI of air to remove most all water before putting the motor back on the supply and adding the naphtha.

The motor does not ignite, provided it is already revving along, and the amount of naphtha is indeed a small squirt applied directly to the comm. I have also oiled the bushings by then. I definitely have seen flaming cars, and that happens when a racer soaks the motor in lighter fuel or motor spray between heats, and does not let the fumes dissipate before setting the car back on the track. Ignition occurs as the car starts up!!

I used to use the naphtha as a bath, as Zammy relates, and did not have a problem. However, I was warned, by a racer (a small manufacturer, in fact!) who was wearing a bandage on his wounded hand, that dangers did exist. Turns out he had removed his motor from the naphtha while it was still hooked to the power supply and running. The concentrated fumes above the jar of naphtha had ignited. Shoot, I don't even leave the motor running as I take it from the water! So, for now, my reccommended procedure is as stated, with no concentrated source of naphtha present. I want all my readers to have a safe time pursuing their hobby!!

 
Enjoy :)


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#25 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 09:36 PM

With the Simple Green break in, are you using the ready for use formula or the concentrated?

 

Kevin,

 

Just came up from the work shop. The large spray bottle of Simple Green I have says concentrated on it.

 

GVP.



#26 gatormark

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 06:01 AM

Gents, would it be OK to clean Hawk 7s with parts cleaner, i.e. brake parts cleaner?


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#27 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 04:22 PM

Brake clean not good. You can use automotive electrical cleaner made by CRC like you would use motor sprays.
 
GVP

#28 rodslot53

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 12:48 PM

Once you have run in the motor, what amps should it be drawing at 4V. The higher the better?

Rod
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#29 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 08:18 PM

Depends on the style of motor. Retro Hawk, Hawk 7, Pro Slot 4002 FK, etc. If the motor is running free, and is lubed properly a higher number is most often better. But be sure you have motor brushes left. 


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#30 Fast Freddie

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:31 AM

Caution!!! This is just a caution note for anyone using the Simple Green break-in method. 

 

I used this method on some of my HR motors and while Matt Bruce is correct in everyway there's something racers need to know. I did the procedure exactly the way Matt said to do it but found out that an additional step should be included. 

 

The next day I went back through the motors on the power supply and I lit one up. It smoked and lit up like a candle but didn't burn up. I came to realize that because a lot of brush material had been removed, in order to fully seat the brushes, some of the material got caught up in the comm slots and had created a shorting effect. When I cleaned out the slots the motor ran fine. 

 

So I would suggest that if you decide to use this method make sure the comm slots are cleaned out before you test-run the motor. I believe the reason the comm slots collect the material is because of the final 2 minute process Matt suggests. During the 2 minute run-in I had no indication anything was wrong. Even though you flush out the motor with motor cleaner some of the Simple Green remains behind under the brushes and maybe even in the comm slots. 

 

So just be aware that this can happen. 


Fred Younkin

#31 Samiam

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:35 AM

This is why y'all should look into one of these:

 

Otoscopes


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#32 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:49 AM

I came to possess a Retro Hawk the other day that had been run a good bit but was not fully broken in.

 

 Long story short I hooked it up at about 4 volts and used a spray bottle of Simple Green to spray in the motor as it ran for about 5 seconds. It took two rounds of spray but the brushes seated and everything cleaned up great. I took the motor in and ran water through it for several minutes then blew it out with air and a round of motor cleaner.

 

 I have not tried it yet but it looks great.


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#33 eAddict

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 04:17 PM

Matt's Simple Green method works the fastest and does the best job. Cleans out the motor at the same time. I run them in water just 2 or 3 seconds after the Simple Green to clean the Simple Green out. Blow dry and oil. Every Retro Hawk and Hawk 7 motor has run great doing this break-in.

 

I'd love to see video or photos of this in action. I can't imagine running current in anything like water.  



#34 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:14 PM

Vince, water, and other liquids have been used for quick brush break-in for years.

 

Have you read any of the late Monty Ohren's posts on OWH?


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#35 eAddict

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:54 PM

Vince, water & other liquids have been used for quick brush break-in for years.Have you read any of the late Monty Ohren's posts on OWH?

 

I haven't been on OWH in years. Guess it it time to revisit.

 

I would just like to witness the process first.   :D



#36 MSwiss

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 01:02 PM

It's nothing dramatic.

I'm not sure what would happen if you put unconnected leads in the water, at 3-5v, but the with leads connected, there isn't an issue with non-flammable liquid.

Why it's not dangerous, it's low voltage.

It's not like dropping a 110V hair dryer in the bathtub.


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Mike Swiss
 
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#37 gatormark

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:31 PM

Would you get the same effect hooking the pinion shaft to a high speed dril? I don't have a variable DC power supply.


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Mark Conner

#38 MSwiss

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:37 PM

Mechanically breaking-in a motor takes forever.


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#39 gatormark

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:32 PM

I have no other way, no power supply. I will put some time on it and slap it in the ole Koford chassis and let 'er rip. Only so many hours in a day.


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Mark Conner

#40 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 03:50 PM

Mark,

 

Buy two C cell batteries, wire them together to get 3 volts, make up a couple of jumper wires clip to motor. Dip motor in a container of Simple Green. Let run for 10 to 15 seconds. Remove from Simple Green dip motor in container of water let run for 10 seconds and remove. Look at brushes repeat if needed. Rinse motor with motor spray blow out. Install in car, oil, run.

 

You should be able to do many motors before batteries die. 

 

Regards,

 

Greg VanPeenen


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#41 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 03:50 PM

A three-battery set gives you about 4.5 volts.

 

Probably kill the batteries quick but if they are rechargeable no problem.

 

I have never tried it to see how long they would last.

 

Or like Greg said.


Eddie Fleming

#42 zipper

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 04:38 PM

D-cells (LR20) give about 12000-18000 mAh  (Alkaline) - quite a lot for a Hawk break-in, several hours. Two or three in series.


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#43 gatormark

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 05:59 AM

Thanks, gents. I appreciate it.


Mark Conner

#44 TallyBernie

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 10:37 AM

All,

 

Following this with interest.  I remember breaking in motors using different solutions well over forty years ago. I even recall Champion (of Chamblee) selling a wide-mouth pint jar of solvent for motor cleaning and break in. 

 

I just tried the Simple Green method and admit disappointment. I ran a new Hawk 7 in Simple Green for 10 secs, followed by 5 sec in distilled water, at 1.5v. The brushes looked seated. The motor was then cleaned with Pure, blown dry, oiled, and then placed in the car, at which point it ran as if it had never been out of the package. However, between 100-150 laps the motor slowly gained speed until it reached the performance point I expected. 

 

Leaves me wondering if I had my Simple Green concentrate too diluted to be effective. I diluted it 10:1:Water:Simple Green, recommended for general purpose cleaning (side of bottle). Is anyone diluting the concentrate as I did or are all who use this method using concentrate right from the bottle? 

 

Thanks.


Keith Bernstein

#45 Racer36

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 10:44 AM

I used my Simple Green right out of the bottle and the brushes were perfect in 10 seconds.


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#46 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 12:55 PM

Simple Green comes ready to use in a spray bottle and concentrated.

Which are you guys using?


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#47 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:04 PM

Following this with interest.  I remember breaking in motors using different solutions well over forty years ago. I even recall Champion (of Chamblee) selling a wide-mouth pint jar of solvent for motor cleaning and break in. 

 

I just tried the Simple Green method and admit disappointment. I ran a new Hawk 7 in Simple Green for 10 secs, followed by 5 sec in distilled water, at 1.5v. The brushes looked seated. The motor was then cleaned with Pure, blown dry, oiled, and then placed in the car, at which point it ran as if it had never been out of the package. However, between 100-150 laps the motor slowly gained speed until it reached the performance point I expected. 

 

Leaves me wondering if I had my Simple Green concentrate too diluted to be effective. I diluted it 10:1:Water:Simple Green, recommended for general purpose cleaning (side of bottle). Is anyone diluting the concentrate as I did or are all who use this method using concentrate right from the bottle? 

 

IMO There's absolutely no way the brushes would be seated after only 10 seconds at 1.5 volts. Try 6 volts for 10 seconds, that's what I do with no issues. To seat the brush fully you have to wear through the "wrong radius" and create your own new radius that properly fits the comm. When this is achieved you will be almost out of brush visually, but the motor will still have some life left in it.


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#48 TallyBernie

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:42 PM

Thank you Ralph, I'll give that a try. I admit my vision on small parts like this is not optimal. I even recently purchased a cheap otoscope to help me see motor brushes better!!

Thanks again,

Bernie


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#49 TallyBernie

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:44 PM

BTW, do you think the concentrate vs. diluted SG plays a role in the break-in?

 

I'm using a diluted concentrate, 10 parts water to 1 part SG.


Keith Bernstein

#50 Racer36

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 02:35 PM

My Simple Green is in a spray bottle.

 

I broke in the first one at 3 volts for 15 seconds and the brushes were half gone. I did the second at 3 volts for 10 seconds and it is perfect.

 

I think 6 volts for 10 seconds is going to be a problem, as in worn-out brushes.


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