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Has Retro racing become too fast?


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#1 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:17 PM

This post is not meant as a troll and I hope it doesn't cause too much heart burn.  I've raced one Retro race in my lifetime and hope to do at least one more before the end of the year, but I honestly found the racing a little too fast for my liking and feel that the cars are a missed opportunity.

 

I'm sure I am in the minority but would it make any sense to have at least one class that's demonstratively slower? I know that stock cars and F1 are somewhat slower than Can Am but is there any hope of an even slower class maybe using a Hawk 25 motor? Could this even be attempted at one of the future major races with hand out tires as well?

 

The reason I posted this is in my research I saw that for the Nordic Scaleauto Endurance race they actually measure the cars RPM.

 

 

All cars will have their motors checked permitting 7230 rpm measured on the rear wheels with no load.

 

Would something like this actually make sense to anyone or am I just getting too old and feeble? Would this solve the handout motor issues that we see?


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#2 Noose

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:21 PM

What do you consider fast?  It depends on the track being raced on too.  Changes in track prep, equipment, tires, etc. have made the cars faster so not necessarily the motors.  I am not hearing any complaints out here like this and that is proven by the number of entries in our series as well as the Premier IRRA® events.

 

If you want that Retro feel but slower then I suggest you try the JailDoor class with Falcon 2s (if still available or the JKMB motor).  The Hawk 25 is wayyyyy too slow for the weight of the cars too.


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#3 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:32 PM

Dennis,

 

At Boogie Speedway in Jackson Michigan we have run some races with the power turned down from the standard 13.8 volts to around 13.2 volts. The track is a 155 ft Hill Climb. The Retro Can-Am cars slow down from 4.8 4.9 to 5.15 5.25. That small change makes the cars better for people starting out or returning to racing.The racing is also closer. That along with running spec gear ratios on the Flexi classes of 3.5,3.6 or 3.7 makes the racing fun for everyone.

 

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Greg VanPeenen. 


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#4 Neckcheese

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:34 PM

On our new "Retro" track in Kolding, we had to lower the voltage from 12 to 10,5 for our Retro F1 (Danish style) cars, which caused a lot of discussion until people tried the cars on the track ;-)

Still I feel that they are a  bit too fast, going 7,7 sec for a 39m twisty circuit, but I dont know what to do ??  we use 25K Fox 10 motors which are no hurricanes and low on brakes too !!

 

One solution is to make a max weight, as a heavier car can go faster in the corners ??  

just some thoughts from distant Denmark :-)

 

Niels, DK


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#5 MSwiss

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:39 PM

This post is not meant as a troll 

By your post in my "faster guide flag" thread, it's pretty clear you are unhappy that U.S. slot racing hasn't morphed into your ideal vision of it.

 

As Joe mentioned, the Hawk 25 is way too slow for a Retro car, unless it was raced on a 60ft., or less, twisty track.

 

The Mini Brute might work OK, but again on tighter tracks, like they already do in NorCal.

 

Running the Mini Brute on a Gerding King would become a bigger exercise in finding a "1 percenter", than it already is.

 

Checking RPM at the back wheels? LOL

 

Guys would just bind up their back end to pass tech, and correct it afterwards.


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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:42 PM

On our new "Retro" track in Kolding, we had to lower the voltage from 12 to 10,5 for our Retro F1 (Danish style) cars, which caused a lot of discussion until people tried the cars on the track ;-)

Still I feel that they are a  bit too fast, going 7,7 sec for a 39m twisty circuit, but I dont know what to do ??  we use 25K Fox 10 motors which are no hurricanes and low on brakes too !!

 

One solution is to make a max weight, as a heavier car can go faster in the corners ??  

just some thoughts from distant Denmark :-)

 

Niels, DK

I agree with all the above.

 

Having the power tailored to the particular track is good.

 

But what Dennis is referring to, is commercial IRRA®/SCRRA style, racing.

 

Most of it is contested on fast, wide open tracks.

 

PS-Neils, can you just lower the voltage, more?

On my track, for IROC races casual, for older kids, and adults, I use fast motors, but on 7-8V.


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#7 havlicek

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:50 PM

I was going to say what Noose, Greg, Niels and Mike said...but didn't have to onnacounta!  :)


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#8 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:59 PM

Yes Mike, I can imagine it would get pretty boring on a hillclimb or even a King

 

 

 

By your post in my "faster guide flag" thread, it's pretty clear you are unhappy that U.S. slot racing hasn't morphed into your ideal vision of it.

 

I don't expect anything to morph into my ideal vision and to be honest you don't know me well enough to know what that is.

 

But yes I do feel sometimes left behind or between two worlds, not countries or even continents but rather I find myself between racing in people's garages and racing on commercial tracks. I like the "open road" but I wish there were classes for me to race. What's wrong with that Mike? Should I not set foot in a commercial raceway or leave racing to the "big boys"?

 

Maybe I'm one of the "silent majority" that buys lot's of slot cars and spends 100s of dollars on the hobby but you don't see me coming in that often. You assume I only want to race on plastic tracks in some basement but that's very far away from the truth.

 

I know Slotblog is not geared to my "ideal vision" but don't make me feel unwelcome.


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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:19 PM

I know Slotblog is not geared to my "ideal vision" but don't make me feel unwelcome.

I like you a real lot, but you stepped into my paid ad, to voice your opinion of "faster" slot car parts.


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#10 Markomatic

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:44 PM

Humans are funny creatures. Regardless of what restrictions you put in place to go at a certain speed some will work harder to go faster. Same happens if you are racing  a JKMB motor or an Open G7 wing car. It takes skill to make them go faster than most. That is the name of the game, going faster and making more laps than the other dudes in the race. Once you get to an equal speed as the others it takes a lot of work to push it into the next step. Hand out motors, hand out tires, spec gears, or the worst...The Claiming Rule. Some use the short cut and do it by cheating the rules. Some do it with experience and skill. It will happen. It is inevitable. The other aspect is that not all people can drive fast. How do you regulate that?

 

BTW...I hate the claiming rule. I have been DQ'd a few times because I refused to sell my motor to some rube. Buy a look? I have no problem. I'll show you anything without paying for the privilege. Buy my motor...Ain't gettin it.


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#11 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:47 PM

I try to view "too fast" not in the context of raw lap time but rather in terms of the lap time spread from the most ballistic equipment you can combine back to the bare bones basics. 

 

Granted that's a bit tricky to establish because so much of what makes a Retro car hinges on the builder, rather than the components, so consider this the asterisk on my opinion...

 

In my experience, because there is no real wizardry inside of a Retro car, the cars are not at all too fast. It's very easy to take one look at a relatively slow Can Am, then take a look at a fast Can Am, and see what needs to be changed. For me, when the ability to mount a challenge seems mysterious to the class is "too fast" or more specifically, has lost its accessibility. 


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#12 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:52 PM

Whoa Mike. I am really sorry about that. What a stupid thing to do. I should have looked closer. Once again I never want to do that for sure, it was a stupid thing I did and I deleted my posts.


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#13 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:08 PM

Perhaps I should state that as "too fast to to be retro", whatever that means. Maybe I'm just looking for a slightly slower class with more realistic bodies IN LEXAN. Probably a reason I'm spending $800+ for three Danish Retro style cars. Something at least that I can run on a beautiful wood track at "my" raceway a few more years.

 

Let me put some numbers out there. The fast guys are putting in low 5 seconds on our flat track. I would like run a class where we are seeing low 6 seconds instead. So this is all about going 1 second a lap slower.

 

Oh and binding a car before tech. All that would be required would be for the car to be placed on the starting line directly from parc ferme and the racer would soon rue the fact that they bound the wheels. ;-) A quick post race inspection of the podium cars is also done.


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#14 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:11 PM

Dennis, have someone build you a lighter than standard chassis, such as a Jim Fowler, put a Hawk 25 in it, & run it on various tracks to see if it's what you're after. You'll be having fun, even if you're running something not accepted by the major retro groups, plus you may find a few followers along your travels.


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#15 John Streisguth

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:37 PM

Well, it is the nature of competition to be ever faster.   Dennis, since you like the "Danish" F1 cars (which are beautiful, BTW), I believe you would like the jaildoor cars, such as used to be raced both here in RetroEast land and also BPR.  Only problem is you may not have anyone to race against unless you take it upon yourself to get a program going somewhere. IMO, the current retro cars would be an absolute bore with slower motors...the handling is just too good.  

 

There can always be something for everyone's taste, you just need to find like-minded people.  Otherwise you end up on a track by yourself.


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#16 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:44 PM

I hope to do that, but if all else fails I will probably end up racing by myself. I can see how a slower motor can be a bore on a faster track especially with a high downforce body,

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#17 Neckcheese

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:05 PM

I agree with all the above.

 

Having the power tailored to the particular track is good.

 

But what Dennis is referring to, is commercial IRRA®/SCRRA style, racing.

 

Most of it is contested on fast, wide open tracks.

 

PS-Neils, can you just lower the voltage, more?

On my track, for IROC races casual, for older kids, and adults, I use fast motors, but on 7-8V.

 

Yes, we can - we have adjustable power supplies, one per lane :-)  but when we lowered to voltage to our first national championship race all hell broke loose !!!  :-(  but all who had tried our track at our opening race agreed that 10,5V was the correct choice. But I will test it in our club and see what happens. We have already lowered the voltage to 10,5V for our DSV (small GT cars) and Classic (LeMans and Sports cars before 1975) and that is the same issue.

But maybe its just me :-(   I had imagined a lower top speed for our track, but even with the differences in height, the track is soooooo smooooth that the speed just goes up :-)  - but its great fun to drive :-)    But seeing an Abarth 1000TC going like a rocket isn't just right somehow ???

 

Maybe I am just getting old....

 

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#18 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:39 PM

REAL racecars race on FLAT tracks.  Some just are tipped up a little on their side.


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#19 Tim Neja

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:42 PM

I hope that Jim Fowler checks in here.  He's the reason NorCal runs the mini brutes in F-1!  And he says it improved their racing.  I agree that the speed of the cars being SLOWER provides better racing! They don't have to be a blur to provide lot's of fun!! We have a group at Dennis Samson's home track--that races on his little 3 lane track--and it's a BLAST!! And NONE of the cars are anywhere near as fast as a current 1/24 retro car.  Slower can be better!! You just won't find that agreement here on slotblog with the "racers" we have here.  Also  Dennis-- remember that MANY of the posters here are selling parts for retro cars.  Speed kills--so more parts!  :)


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#20 mgerbetz

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:48 PM

Too fast😁, isn't that like too much fun or too much money😁.
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#21 Don Weaver

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:49 PM

Another thing that makes Jaildoor cars a driver's car is the narrower rear tires (1/2" or 5/8" depending on the ruleset).


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#22 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:55 PM

I found that going below 10 volts sometimes does strange things to electronic controllers and I need my choke ;-)

Of course I need to consider the track when talking about how much speed is required to have fun. Also I just returned from Europe so that's colored my opinion a little. I also need to get a couple of the Retro 25s and check them out. Something tells me that 30-40K is the sweat spot for me at least.

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#23 Cap Henry

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:21 PM

Dennis, I don't necessarily disagree that the cars are too fast for the "normal" mid pack racer. I don't feel personally that the cars are too fast, I can easily look ahead of my car, look at monitor, watch for wrecks, etc.

I do feel that for mid pack guys they're a bit fast. But just taking motor away from them isn't the answer, as even you have said that would be boring on most tracks.

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#24 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:40 PM

True of course. It's like the chicken and the egg with slot cars. Which came first, fast tracks or the cars that are needed to race on them.

Can a raceway survive with large tracks (rent) or is it that without large tracks nobody will come. I wish I were younger and still working then I would open a shop with a single flat track of 110 feet and 6 lanes. Then I could really test my vision. The place would need to be a loft that was zoned for commercial and residential so I could put in an office as well.

I would run the track as a commercial basis but not open for normal traffic. More along the European Club Model. With some light manufacturing as well. (CN, 3D)

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#25 Samiam

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 06:01 PM

"Has Retro Racing become too Fast?"

 

No.

 

The mainstay of the accepted motors are still the same wind spec as prescribed at the dawn of the class. I do agree that racing on tracks that were designed for maximum speed of wing cars can get pretty fast. Too fast? No. You still have time to react to traffic and wrecks.

 

Should the JK-MB be put into more Retro service? I would welcome their use on a track or two.


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#26 raisin27

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:34 PM

Maybe I am wrong but I am pretty sure that RETRO racing is if not the "slowest" then certainly one of the "slowest" class of slot racing in any of the major series run in commercial raceways on a national level.

 

We are limited to inline chassis, very little air control, and cheap low horsepower motors along with a relatively heavy minimum weight in most parts of the country.


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#27 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:51 PM

It probably is the slowest and I know at least one racer who doesn't like it because he can't understand why anyone would spend so much money to go slow. So I understand I'm probably pissing in the wind here. Especially considering most of the tracks people like and race on.

A slower series is probably only viable on a flat track and one that's fairly tight.

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#28 Brinkley47

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:56 PM

How is racing and too slow in the same sentence? Some of you are not racers. Model car enthusiasts or socialites would be a better term used. Racers are always wanting to be faster within the rules supplied :)
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#29 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:35 PM

I subscribe to the AJ Foyt school of thought. "There is no such thing as too fast" or at least how he felt as a driver. BUT..... I can make a good argument that ever increasing speeds was a big contributor to the early fall of slot racing in the beginning. Less and less people could be successful and they stopped having fun.
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#30 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:47 PM

  Out here in SoCal at Buena Park, Retro Racing tried a slower class and gave a real good shot to "Jail Door" but after a while most racers pretty much abandoned it and it just faded away. We also run the faster "Retro Pro" but the fields are getting smaller and smaller.

 

  The virtually identical Retro formats that include the nationwide IRRA, NorCal, and the local SCRRA seems to be a sweet spot that combines rules and speed that has proven to attract the most racers. :)


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#31 James Grandi

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:52 PM

The best example I can think of is this - the first time I went to RetroPalooza at Port Jeff, 2014, Can-am TQ was a blistering 3.902 and the race lap total for the winner was 354 laps.

 

Nothing major has changed since then. I can think of 1, maybe 2 bodies that were introduced, a guide flag, a few other odds & ends but generally nothing groundbreaking save for the Red Fox guide, which pretty much everyone ran at the most recent event. 

 

RetroPalooza at Port Jeff, 2017, Can-am TQ was a ripper lap of 3.743 and the race lap total for the winner was 364 laps. 

 

So what happened? Why the increase in speed, in lap total? Build a better mousetrap syndrome, followed by tuning said-mousetrap to make it a razor sharp guillotine of speed. The real evolution has been coming from guys at the workbenches, building new cars with different designs, and guys at the track testing and fine tuning to have the best car possible. Each year there is always a slight increase in speed, even when there is no real obvious reason why anyone got faster. Nature of the game in anything that has the word "Racing" in it.

 

One could, conceivably, slow us down by creating a different class or changing the rules - but the general end result will still be the same. More speed will be found eventually, records will be broken again, and the question of what could be changed would return. The pendulum never stops swinging.


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#32 SlotStox#53

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:52 PM

Never driven a current Retro car but just wanted to say..Neils, there's nothing wrong with seeing that little Fiat rocket round your track. That thing is brutal :D

#33 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:30 PM

Dennis, you're preaching to a crowd that's 55 & older. We can see the benefits of your idea for us. :)


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Bill Fernald

 

You have to be odd to be #1. :laugh2: 


#34 Dennis David

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:45 PM

Now this is just a idea. Not trying to change any existing class.

Initial idea for slowing things down would be to go back to low downforce bodies of the old Lancer or PETG type (Body list) with a thickness of .020, JK-MB and probably more suitable to a flat track.

Minimum body weight and minimum chassis weight. Chassis can be any material and yes soldering is allowed if not encouraged.

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#35 Mike Patterson

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:46 PM

FWIW, I would like to see the IRRA® mandate a spec track voltage. At the R4, I have seen readings of 14+ volts on various controllers.


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#36 Jason Holmes

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:47 PM

Want to check Speed go back to Wing cars like I did this weekend at a Drivers King on little spray glue now that was a wake up call had fun but wow  GRP F was 3.8+  Box Stock 3.2+ and 27L I ran a Fast lap in Race 2.63 and that is with 10 percent of the Glue we use in Retro not Kidding .So speed is what you make of it

 

Jason


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#37 bbr

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:25 PM

Put 10,000 laps with a well setup car on your track of choice.

It will seem slow after all those laps.
Every type of car, no matter how fast you think it is when you first start, will seem "slow " after you get enough laps.

When I got my wrx, it was fast, three months later it seem slow. Same with the c6 corvette, after six months it wasn't that scary fast anymore.
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#38 team burrito

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:28 PM

you know, for someone who raced in only one retro race doesn't really have a grasp about our sport.  we at norcal race three classes with the mini-brute motors & we have a great time.  the other two classes use the retro hawk in can-am's & big dog motors in our 1/24 retro-pro's.  the big dog motors are a handful, so the china dogs are a good alternate.  it's not about speed, it's about the participation & the challenge of the race.  retro racing isn't for everybody, it's for guys who like to tinker & build their own chassis.


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#39 bbr

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:57 PM

Retro is very competitive. There's about dozen guys that can build a fast chassis. Twice as many that can setup a car. And maybe none will tell you how.

What to do?
Get alot of laps, do alot of testing, try to drive someone's fast car to get an idea of where you need to get to.
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Mike Low
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Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#40 Dennis David

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 12:50 AM

Russ, I hope to race with you guys some more. I had work down in SD and later some health issues that got in the way but I'm feeling better now.

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#41 Dennis David

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 12:53 AM

It's not a matter of not being fast enough or not being faster though of course more practice and work would obviously improve my performance. It was never about losing or winning really.

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#42 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 06:04 AM

Sounds like you need to run break out races. Actually your original topic/comment is an insult to the guys who are dedicated to going faster and winning races. James Grandi hit it right on !
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#43 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 07:07 AM

Give me a break Andrew, the topic is not an insult.

 

If someone feels retro is to fast it only reinforces the fact that the racers have been successful in the quest for speed.

 

If someone would like to see a slower class that fits more into there racing ability or wants how does that effect your racing? 


Eddie Fleming

#44 Brinkley47

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 07:39 AM

I can't win the current class, please create a new class so I can win.
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#45 Dennis David

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 08:16 AM

Huh? Insult? Can't win?

That's got nothing to do with it. But you guys go ahead and believe what you want. I'm done here.

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#46 Noose

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 08:20 AM

A rare thing for me to do but I am locking this one up since it is going no where and is adding no value.


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