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Maserati 450S Driftin' Fifties proxy car


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:28 PM

Spec motor and gearing is a JK Hawk 25 at 8/28 with 1" OD minimum wheels.

I have zero experience with these motors so I'd like to just see what they feel like.

 

A testing opportunity is coming up for me in two days so I found a quick and dirty way to accomplish that:

My Can Am IRRA® car. A simple motor and gearing change will do the trick.

Never been so happy to see quick disconnect wire clips.  :)

 

IMG_6389.JPG

 

In goes the H25. But 1" wheels won't fit, so I looked at the numbers and found 9/26 with .818" wheels mimics a 8/28 with 1".

If nothing else, it should give me a fairly good idea of how the motor acts

 

IMG_6391.JPG

 

IMG_6394.JPG


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Paul Wolcott




#2 Martin

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 01:54 PM

Hey, Paul,

 

Why the angled pinion? Just thinking it may damage your crown. OK, for a quick test I reckon. Test on. :)


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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 02:04 PM

Just the opposite, ARP angled pinions work superior with 48p inline crowns, especially when the arm and axle shafts are offset.


Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#4 Pablo

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 02:10 PM

To add to what Mike said, in the beginnings of Retro, it was discovered angled pinions with pink Parma crowns tolerate an offset "hypoid" bracket very well.

 

99% of all Retro cars use this type set-up today.

 

The bracket on this particular car is a Chicagoland adjustable bracket and the motor can be moved up and down for the desired amount of offset.


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#5 Jairus

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 02:33 PM

:victory: ARP is what I am using!  

I think Paul knows what he is doing.
 


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#6 Bill from NH

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 07:31 PM

The Red Fox F1 race cars with Deathstar motors were using angled pinions before Retro was ever created. :laugh2:


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#7 MSwiss

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:11 PM

Correct.

Early in the Retro game, I sent Mike Steube a few to try out, because BP wasn't stocking them yet.

We were inspired by concours ace, Jack Beers, using them on his FCRs previously.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#8 Pablo

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:01 AM

Motor test results: at 12.5v my IRRA® Can Am car was full punch on the entire track.

 

By far the lowest power of any FK motor I've tested - about twice as slow as a Mini Brute.  :o


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#9 Martin

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:27 PM

I learn something every day. Thanks guys.


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#10 Pablo

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 05:02 PM

My Dilworth Maserati 450S body has arrived from Middlesex.

What other proxy sends you a free body of your choice? :dance3: :sun_bespectacled:

 

WB is 4" and wheel widths about 2 3/4"

 

IMG_6542.JPG


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#11 Pablo

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 03:59 PM

My wheels: custom trimmed JK, 250" width fronts and .375" width rears

 

IMG_6588.JPG


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#12 Pablo

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 10:51 PM

JK hypoid bracket - after some work, it's fairly true.

Chicagoland brace and Pablo moniker are simply mocked up for now

 

IMG_6598.JPG

 

Steve's "Driftin' 50's" proxy is truly "international".

Italian Maserati body was created by John Dilworth in England.

The #3 decals are a German font created by Patto's in Australia.

Wheels, motor, rubber, and bracket are Czechoslovak inspired.

I could go on. One World :)

 

The body is going to be pretty simple - three meatball numbers and a pair of Italian flags.

Paint will be a light black fog and red. All decals are inside, of course :)

 

IMG_6605.JPG


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#13 Jairus

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:24 AM

Looks great Paul! 


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#14 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:59 PM

1 mm = ,03937008 inches


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#15 Pablo

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:43 PM

It's been brought to my attention the use of wire bracing and the brass plate brace on the motor bracket may not be legal.

Here is the rule: "Inline chassis made exclusively from brass rod and tube with a limit of two rods soldered together for their full length - exceptions: motor brackets...."

If it's not legal, I'll change it to brass rod "no problemo" :give_rose:

 

My Maserati paint job is done

 

IMG_6618.JPG


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#16 Jairus

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 02:32 PM

I like it!  Great way to separate your red car from the field of other red cars. :victory:


Jairus H Watson - Artist
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#17 Pablo

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Jairus :D

 

The brass brace insert had to go. Chassis errors are easy to fix. I'll simply set this bracket aside and use it on down the road.

Grab another fresh bracket and I'll be back in the game :dance3:


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#18 Pablo

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 07:15 PM

"Motor bracket", take #2:

 

IMG_6626.JPG

 

K & S makes 3/64" OD solid brass rod, so I ordered some for new bracing :spiteful:

 


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#19 Jairus

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 07:30 PM

Oh... I LIKE it!  :diablo:


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#20 Pablo

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 04:03 PM

Hope you like this, too :) :

 

Made my own 10 thou Lexan interior deck and styrene roll bar to fit driver and body

 

IMG_6645.JPG

 

I don't have big enough jig wheels for this car, so I made my own by trimming old gears to .898" OD

 

IMG_6637.JPG

 

 

 

 


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#21 Pablo

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 06:21 PM

Once the build is done, I hope to sell the jig wheels to a Tram operation for big bucks :laugh2:

 

IMG_6649.JPG


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#22 Bill from NH

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 07:01 PM

A clockmaker might need those gears too. :)


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#23 Pablo

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 04:57 PM

My Duffy (RIP) 2 degree tongue atop a piece of .063 brass sheet.

Steve-a-Roonie deemed it legal, as long as the brass wasn't wider or longer than the tongue

 

IMG_6667.JPG


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#24 Pablo

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:17 PM

Driver is ready for battle. I need to brush some black paint on that filament tape :)

The interior/driver/roll bar assembly is designed to survive a complete proxy series.

It's lightweight and designed to bend, not break.

Head is attached underneath the Lexan interior via .032 brass rod secured in driver's neck and an earring keeper

 

IMG_6672.JPG


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#25 Pablo

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 10:04 PM

So far so good......

 

IMG_6690.JPG


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#26 Pablo

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 04:23 PM

.047" brass rod bracing for the tongue

 

IMG_6712.JPG

 

Bracket bracing, .047" up top and .063" bottom

 

IMG_6719.JPG


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#27 Pablo

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:07 PM

I still haven't played my "one set of rails soldered full length" card yet :)

 

IMG_6724.JPG

 

IMG_6727.JPG


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#28 Bill from NH

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:29 PM

If you feel the rails need to be soldered together, you could try the "half-length" first, but it might not make any difference. Iused to stiffen up a chassis with silver solder, but these weren't inlines, with a few exceptions.


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#29 Pablo

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:45 PM

Appreciate it, Bill.

I'm not worried about it; just want to use it to my best advantage. I chose the outermost front axle supports

 

IMG_6737.JPG


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#30 Pablo

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:03 PM

7 gram "shakey" lead weight

 

IMG_6742.JPG


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#31 SlotStox#53

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:41 PM

Nice bit of low c of g with that shaky weight/lead. As low as you can get it.

Car is looking good Pablo :D

#32 Jairus

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 11:15 PM

"Out of the box Paul!" I like it. :)


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#33 Pablo

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 07:57 AM

Thanks guys. First time I've soldered to lead. Thought it would be tricky, but it was easy :)


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#34 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 08:43 AM

Wondering.........I routinely read the build threads on this forum to pick up ideas that I can use - like the above lead shaker.  I have zero knowledge of the various competition classes and associated rules.  In the pond that I like to play, "rules" are typically WB, Track, tire specs (min/max diameter & width, material, shape) motor spec (sometimes) and body material - again typically molded, resin or GRP.  When I use wire in chassis builds, it is almost always steel or spring tempered stainless.  It is stronger, lighter, much less likely to bend in an accident and both its lighter weight and strength (less wire needed) allows more opportunity to weight tune within a given design goal.
 
So - my question:  Why is brass rod so widely used with the weight penalty and need for multiple parts (I assume to provide adequate strength)
 
EM
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#35 Jairus

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 09:06 AM

Weight can be your friend Alan.  If it's kept low enough of course.

Brass is easy to work with and has great harmonics as well.
But.... this proxy class requires the chassis be all brass, so... ;-)


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#36 Half Fast

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 12:40 PM

Pablo

 

You are going to scare everybody else away with this Premo build :good:

 

Cheers


Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now

 

 


#37 Pablo

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 01:35 PM

Alan, like Jairus said, no wire allowed for this build. The only non-brass item allowed is a small tongue of any material.

No brass sheet allowed, either. Normally I'd make my shaker platform using .015" brass sheet with thin wire pieces inside tubes.

Then use double sided tape to attach the weight atop the platform. It can be removed, moved, trimmed, etc.

This time, I don't have that option.

 

Thanks Bill, but I doubt I'm scaring anybody :laugh2: 

The spec motor is so docile, I'm sure a simple jaildoor chassis with no tricks would work fine.

The emphasis is on beautiful cars and having fun. I can visualize them eating fish n chips and quaffing ale as they drive them :sun_bespectacled:

 

I gave up trying to find firm enough and large enough donuts for my JK wheels.

Plan "B": my >1" OD wheels arrived today :dance3:

 

IMG_6755.JPG


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#38 Lowrider

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 12:32 AM

Congratulations, sir. You have provided me with another difficult question.

 
Lead was not specifically banned in the rules, why would it be? It's the usual method of tuning chassis balance.
On the other hand, the chassis are supposed to be made solely of brass rod and tube and Pablo has changed lead from a tuning aid where it is added to an existing chassis to an actual chassis component which has been expressly forbidden. Taking this theory to extremes, I could imagine a large chunk of lead being used as chassis pans with a simple rectangle of brass rod forming the perimeter. Not what I had in mind at all.
 
I think I'm going to have to be a little arbitrary here and ask you to remove the lead employed in this way and think again.
Might I suggest a 'concertina' of brass rod formed into a rectangle of the same size? You could overlay one rectangle over the other if you wanted to add further weight.
 
Looking forward to the next challenge.

Steve-a-roonie Kempson

#39 Pablo

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 07:04 AM

I'll remove it, no problemo :)

Thanks for the clarification :good:


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#40 Bill from NH

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 07:56 AM

It sounds like solid pans made of parallel brass rods would be legal, just a longer rectangle. :)

 

 

Lee Gilbert was right!


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#41 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:42 AM

Gentlemen - thank you for the clarification.  The only chassis material rule that I have encountered is the other way around - prohibition of the use of carbon fiber laminate in a few proxies.  I still like the little lead shaker idea - it's filed away for future use.  While I recognize that weight can help, I find that I have been going lighter recently, either because motor specs are tight and low powered (e.g. FC-130 cans, 14K RPM max) or plotting results over time points to lighter cars finishing higher (VRAA)

 

EM


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#42 Jairus

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 09:01 AM

I suspect that these cars will benefit more from tire tuning than from chassis movement.  Too much traction, they tend to roll over. Thus the "Drifting" term.


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#43 Pablo

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 03:46 PM

I agree, Jairus.

 

Adding lead weight down low always loosens up a car no matter where it's placed.

The further forward the placement, the looser it makes the rear.

 

My intent with this particular weight was twofold:

-plant the flag to avoid deslots

-make the rear end drift happy

 

Maserati-450S_3.jpg

 

The reason behind making my "shaker" isn't a weight shift trick at all.

It's simply the best way to place weight down low in that location without making a hard connection between the rails.

 

The location I chose is to counteract the weight of the motor and balance the car fore and aft.

By adding weight forward (theoretically) it actually promotes the rear end to drift and plants the flag in the slot.

 

I 100% understand and support the decision to not allow it.

Onward :)  Here are my pans

 

IMG_6759.JPG


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#44 Pablo

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 05:26 PM

IMG_6763.JPG


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Paul Wolcott

#45 Pablo

Pablo

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 08:23 AM

IMG_6790.JPG

 

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Paul Wolcott

#46 Pablo

Pablo

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 02:58 PM

No, Red, I didn't forget. Brass sheet isn't allowed so I had to be creative on the placement :)

 

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Paul Wolcott

#47 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 03:54 PM

:laugh2:  :laugh2:


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#48 Pablo

Pablo

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:50 PM

These Pro-Track CNC wheels are really sweet.

My fronts independently rotate on a 3/32" solid axle

 

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Paul Wolcott

#49 Pablo

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 07:14 PM

My Hawk 25 motor with ARP pinion

 

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Paul Wolcott

#50 Pablo

Pablo

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 01:45 PM

Flag Tips Tricks and Parts:

-Parma standard thickness flag

-Turning Man 2 degree steel tongue

-TQ 20 lead wire (my new favorite)

-TQ clips

-Koford nut and spacers

 

John Clow trick: put a spacer up top - during practice, if you need to add one, there it is.

Coastal Angler trick: round off the corners of the nut that contact the wire during flag rotation.

Pablo trick: don't trim the flag shaft too short - if the car is raced at a track with deep braid recess you'll wish you hadn't.

 

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Paul Wolcott





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