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What I would do...


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#1 MSwiss

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:38 PM

It's been 2005 since I've made a big effort to win a race, but if I was to break that 12-year streak, in the case of the new Red Fox guide, and its durability concerns, regardless if I had a "stock" or pinned one, right before I teched, I would pull the body off and dip the nose in a container of boiling water (obviously submerging the guide) for at least a few minutes, to try to get some moisture into the material.

 

I have the boiled my last three batches of guides, and I've noticed that the thin section of the flag, is fairly pliable right after boiling, and even a few hours afterwards, but each subsequent day, they seem to get stiffer and stiffer.

 

When I ran my theory by a local racer, earlier today, he asked if I think it would hurt the car's speed.

 

I honestly don't know, but you could test it ahead of time to confirm it one way or another.


Mike Swiss
 
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#2 bbr

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:52 PM

Just putting the guide in a cup of water between race events will possibly retain enough moisture to prevent breakage.

 

I see some testing will need to be conducted.

 

Guide boiling stations in the hot pits!!!


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#3 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:03 PM

I've been boiling guides since the Jet flag days. Not too scientific, but I've always thought that using boiling helped relieve any molding stresses as well as adding moisture.


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#4 MSwiss

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:10 PM

After I posted I went to another racer and without explaining anything, I had him flex those thin surfaces with his thumbs, on two different (pink) guides.

 

I asked if there was any difference, and without hesitation, he said the second one was more flexible.

 

Both had been boiled Saturday morning.

 

The second one was reboiled, here at the raceway, about an hour before I had him try the comparison test.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#5 Steve Deiters

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:09 AM

Mike Swiss,

 

Boiling the flags: I know this is an oft-mentioned technique but how long do you boil them?



#6 kvanpelt

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:47 AM

I'm going to run my pink one unboiled this weekend at the ROC. We'll see if it can stand up to the test!


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#7 MSwiss

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:49 AM

I'm not sure if there is an optimum time.

All I know is reboiling a flag that was boiled three days earlier, and probably a month before that when Gugu dyed them, was pliable  again.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#8 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:05 AM

I am going to stir the pudding on this one.

 

If the Red Fox guide is that prone to breakage I may well put Parma guides back on my cars.

 

I am not going to reboil my guide just before the race.

 

I have several Red Fox guides on cars and have had no problems to this point. I think these were sent out before Mike started boiling them.


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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:16 AM

So you are going to replace something that hasn't given you trouble? LOL.

I think the issues have been all on high-speed tracks, like Gerding Kings and Englemans, with wide turns.

I haven't seen any breakage on my track, but most of the usage of them has been on wing cars, and our wing racing has been real clean lately.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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#10 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:45 AM

No, I am not replacing them, but if breakage becomes a problem for me I will before I start reboiling them before a race.

 

Hey Mike, I know you started of with, "What I would do" and that is fine. My point if I have one is that is pretty extreme.


Eddie Fleming

#11 MSwiss

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 10:01 AM

I guess my advice was aimed at the racer who isn't willing to give up the .05-.1 improvement in lap times most people cite.


Mike Swiss
 
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#12 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

I'll simply stick with finishing the race.


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#13 Dave Crevie

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:58 PM

Back in the day you had to boil Associated R/C car nylon parts to finish a race. Although I can't imagine why

boiling the flag would slow the car down, it seems that finishing the race would be preferable to loosing a few

hundredths of time in each heat. 



#14 MSwiss

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 02:00 PM

Did you periodically do it, or just once?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#15 tonyp

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 04:43 PM

We did it just once.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#16 Phil Hackett

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:32 PM

Try boiling in anti-freeze.....


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#17 MSwiss

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:28 PM

Sounds like a Stage III guide in the works. LOL


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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#18 Half Fast

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:50 PM

 i think this thread should be in racer recipes :)

 

I suggest boiling the guide until it is al dente

 

Cheers


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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:54 PM

Try boiling in anti-freeze.....

Phil,

Do you think I should leave the pin out and just "Phil" up the cavity with the anti-freeze?

 

Would you be able to screw-machine me up some leak-proof plugs?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#20 Zippity

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 10:20 PM

Are you saying that these new guides are permeable?

 

I doubt it :dash2: :dash2:



#21 Half Fast

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:00 PM

I think the heating by boiling "relaxes" the stresses caused by the cutting of the threads as wll as any molded in stresses.

 

Cheers


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Bill Botjer

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#22 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:13 AM

I agree with Bill.

Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta


#23 Phil Hackett

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:44 AM

Anti-freeze boils at a much higher temp.... higher temp, less time..


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#24 Gator Bob

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:11 AM

To Phil's point, with a pressure cooker you can bring the boiling point of H2O up to ~250 deg.

 

To Sam's point, my wife is all Italian and said if I wash it first I could stick it in her sauce if I want it to turn red. She's from Lodi, NJ and doesn't ever call it gravy.


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#25 Dave Crevie

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 02:36 PM

Boiled just once, for ten minutes. Ernie Provetti told me back then that it de-stressed the parts, like

drawing back heat treated steel parts. All i know is it worked.  


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#26 bbr

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 06:38 AM

"Molecular mobility is increased through the absorption of water. The increase in spacing between nylon molecules lowers the secondary forces allowing easier translational motion. This is the major reasons for the change in physical properties discussed above. There is less resistance to applied stress from the decrease in intermolecular friction. The change in molecular mobility is significant enough that molded nylon parts can relieve molded in stresses as they absorb moisture."

Found from a plastic company
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#27 Gator Bob

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:42 PM

Does boiling Graphite guides make them go faster too ?


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#28 TSR

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 05:55 PM

Nylon is a very brittle material. In the old days, SimCo made the "Jet Flag" guides using a mix of Nylon and Vinyl, making them soft enough to resist shaft or blade fracture.
When Associated took over, the mix was changed to straight Nylon, and there is a history of pro races with guide breakage through the 1970s.
By 1971, we at Tam Checkpoint, boiled all our guides while also dying them with green stuff. I cannot recall a breakage of any guides in the team the whole time I was there.
We only did it once, for about 20-30 minutes in hot water. Never had to do it again.
Once cooled (takes whst, 3 seconds! ) I cut vertical slots on the blade with a thin Dremel disc, and with needle-nose pliers, bent each subsequent tiny blade one to the right, one to the left, so that only the lower edge of the blade would contact the side of the slot. It helped keep the cars from de-slotting if it tried to "push", especially in the surviving AMCRC tracks built with a "T" slot. Worked great for me, at a time when we were truly discovering serious speeds.


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#29 swodem

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 04:43 AM

At work we manufacture a hardhat that has a nylon harness

The people who mould it for us boil the nylon components after they are moulded, otherwise they are very brittle.

Following the boiling process the parts are very flexible and virtually unbreakable


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