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#1 Pablo

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 07:55 PM

I'm happily retired, and no longer running tanks of ethanol "infected" fuels through my '03 Corolla on a regular basis to go to work.

She has 222K (trouble free) miles on her and my goal is at least 300K.

 

For you car experts out there, I'd like your opinion. I asked the distributors of Sta-Bil ethanol treatments this question a few days ago, and no answer. Here is what I wrote:

 

"I drive a 2003 Corolla, 222K miles, I recently retired so I’m not driving much any more. I think I need to protect against ethanol damage due to not running the fuel through the car like I used to. Which product for me- Sta-Bil Storage, or the 360?  Thanks"

 
My take on ethanol has always been, any internal combustion engine is OK with it as long as the fuel is being used on a regular basis. But an engine that sits, like a lawn mower or outboard motor in the off-season, will deteriorate.
 
My Corolla sits like an unused motor. I think I need to protect it so she still works on my weekly WalMart run and my monthly slot car trip. I'm convinced I need to protect it. Back in the day, we put a capful of "Biobor" in marine diesel engine fuel tanks every fillup. Keeps moisture from forming, etc.
 
Sta-Bil Storage, or Sta-Bil 360, or ? for my beloved Corolla?
 
Thanks,
Pablo

Paul Wolcott





#2 Samiam

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:16 PM

Sta-Bil 360 is for cars and equipment with metal gas tanks. The standard Sta-Bil will work fine. You can also try Star Tron. It works very well.

 

Running your car once a week will not be an issue. You're good. It is equipment and vehicles with carburetors that are most vulnerable to ethanol. Anything with fuel injection is far less prone to the damage ethanol wreaks on the fuel system.It also helps to keep your gas tank as full as possible when the car is sitting.

 

Ethanol is the worst thing to happen to small engines. Turning corn into fuel is counter productive. But it keeps me in business so I love it. I :heart: the Koch brothers.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
 
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
    Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
 
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#3 Pappy

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:21 PM

Pablo,

I just took a small engine repair class and my instructor recommended Ethanol Shield. He says Sta-Bil is crap. He showed us gas that has been sitting for a long time and the ethanol separates from the gas. If you get a gulp of pure ethanol your engine could be history. You can buy Ethanol Shield at Tractor Supply or Rural King but the best way to buy it is Ebay by the gallon. It's a hundred dollars a gallon (shipping included) but you only have to put one ounce per five gallon's of gas.

Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

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#4 Samiam

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:43 PM

Jim is correct. Ethanol Shield works very well.  Most auto parts stores stock it. Lucas makes a good product too.

 

The ethanol does not separate from the gas. You are seeing water that the ethanol absorbs from the air. With small engines and older cars with carburetors this is a problem because the fuel system is vented to atmosphere. With modern fuel injected cars the system is sealed.

 

I have been in the small engine repair business since 1985. Started working in a shop in '78. I have never seen so much havoc wreaked on the fuel systems till the ethanol replaced the MTBEs in our fuel. 


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
 
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
    Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
 
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
    George W. Bush

#5 Pablo

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 09:05 PM

Sam, I actually do not know if my car has a carb or injection, nor do I know what the fuel tank is made of.

Of course anybody with experience knows to keep a fuel tank full.

 

You said "standard Sta-Bil will work fine", but that doesn't answer my question at all. Sta-Bil has many different products in it's line. Which one are you referring to? "Storage", or "360"?

 

Pappy, does av-gas have corn in it?


Paul Wolcott


#6 Samiam

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 09:32 PM

Standard Sta-Bil. Or any of the other treatments.

 

Your car has fuel injection. And a plastic fuel tank. So the 360 is not necessary.

 

Greg better be using 360 in his Model-A.

 

I have heard that ethanol free gas is available from many marinas. Have not found any up here. Anyone seen this? 


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
 
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
    Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
 
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
    George W. Bush

#7 Mike Patterson

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 09:33 PM

Pablo, does all the gas in your area have ethanol in it? Personally, I would avoid it if at all possible. At least here in Ohio, Shell contains no ethanol.. BP (British Piss, as my Honda dealer calls it), Murphy's (Sam's Club) and Speedway all use it. There may be more, but these I know for sure.

 

My '93 Civic has went 7 months between fill-ups. I wouldn't worry about it.


I am not a doctor, but I played one as a child with the girl next door.


#8 Samiam

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 10:13 PM

Paul,

I just checked what I have and it is Sta-Bil's "Storage"  product. Their Marine and 360 are the only other products on the shelf at my local auto parts stores. 

 

As Mike pointed out, modern cars are not so susceptible to the evils of ethanol. But like my Grandmother used to say " It couldn't hurt".


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
 
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
    Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
 
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
    George W. Bush

#9 Pappy

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 10:18 PM

Pappy, does av-gas have corn in it?

No ethanol in av-gas.

You can buy ethanol free gas but last time I bought it it was $3.55 a gallon. But it was 91 octane.

Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

2000 Jackasses


#10 Rob Voska

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:09 AM

Get some glass mason jars and do a test with all the ones you can find......... let us know the results.

 

I just tried the Star Tron and truck that sits a lot and it ran much smoother after 100 miles.



#11 havlicek

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:30 AM

Ethanol-blended gasoline is as large an example of governmental lunacy as there is.  I guess the fact that it ruins so many engines (*not just small ones, like on lawn mowers) could be seen as a perverse economic stimulus, but this policy should be held up as being right there with...oh...say "cash for clunkers".  Sorry for the drift!


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#12 Pappy

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:01 AM

Pablo,

There is a gas additive called "Sea Foam" that a lot of people swear by. Not sure how much it helps with ethanol but you might want to look into it.

https://seafoamsales.com/

Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

2000 Jackasses


#13 Pappy

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:15 AM

Just found this on the net. It's hard to say how true it is because everyone has an agenda so they will say what they want you to hear.

https://www.fuelfree...hanol-Facts.pdf

Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

2000 Jackasses


#14 havlicek

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:34 AM

A lot of that is what I call "soft nonsense" Butch, meaning carefully-chosen wording, parsing and red-herrings.  Not wanting to take the thread any further sideways, there is one thing about the physical properties of ethanol (*and most any common type of alcohol) that is irrefutable, that being ethanol is a remarkably effective solvent.  Along with being able to dissolve many other substances, it can also dissolve other solvents...one of those being the "universal solvent", ie: water.  In fact, ethanol will absorb water directly from the atmosphere ("hygroscopic").  Regardless of all the other nonsense attached to this that can be shaded to fit various narratives, gasoline engines do no do well with water.  So, if ethanol could be injected directly into the combustion chambers of an engine from a laboratory-pure reservoir kept somewhere else where it couldn't absorb atmospheric water, things might be peachy.  I could go on with a lot more of the points made, but everyone's real-life experiences should tell them what's actually going on here.  ***Remember when we were all told that margarine was the "healthy alternative to butter"?  :D


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#15 Samiam

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 08:17 AM

Just found this on the net. It's hard to say how true it is because everyone has an agenda so they will say what they want you to hear.

https://www.fuelfree...hanol-Facts.pdf

It has to be true. Otherwise it wouldn't be allowed on the internet :sarcastic_hand: . :crazy: :dash2:


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
 
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
    Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
 
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
    George W. Bush

#16 Pablo

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 08:49 AM

Thanks guys. Thanks for checking, Sam, I'll simply go to wally world and get Sta-Bil Storage.

I'll look at the Ethanol Shield and the Lucas if they have those also.

 

I'll splash some in there and keep pushing for 300K :dance3:

When this one wears out, I'll go get another one just like it.

Too bad they don't still sell 'em with manual window cranks :laugh2:


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#17 boxerdog

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 08:50 AM

I have not had particularly good luck with Stabil or Seafoam. I have had better results with Startron and Joe Gibbs Driven (Defender) products. 


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#18 Pappy

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 10:24 AM

At least here in Ohio, Shell contains no ethanol..

Mike, I'm not sure if that's correct. You might have a Shell station that does sell ethanol free gas but I don't think all Shell gas is ethanol free. Here's a link to all the all the places in Ohio where you can purchase ethanol free gas. It also lists all the ethanol free stations in the U.S. and Canada. I got mine from Baker's Hardware in Okeana, Ohio.

https://www.pure-gas...sp?stateprov=OH
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Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

2000 Jackasses


#19 Phil Hackett

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 01:57 PM

I have a second car that I only drive once every 6 to 10 weeks for 1-2 tanks and then park it. And since I'm in California with the "special" gas we use I have never had a problem with the gas after the car sits for that time. I always assume ethanol is in the gas.... the car gets driven 2000 to 3000 miles/year. It's a 1993 car so it was built before all the ethanol craziness...

 

YMMV....


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#20 Dave Crevie

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 02:27 PM

Just sold my Mustang GT that had been stored outside for almost two years. Put a new battery in, and it

fired right up, and ran as good as it did when it was parked. Cenex stations in the mid-west sell ethanol

free gas, supposedly for boats and farm equipment. It is a little more expensive, which is weird because

you are paying them more to not add ethanol. I think Sea-foam is supposed to be for two-strokes. I just

did the neighbor's Johnson 40 that the carbs were coated inside with that white powder that comes from

the alcohol in the gas. I rebuilt those carbs last year in the spring, and told him to buy the ethanol-free gas

at the Cenex that we both patronize when we are up in Wisconsin. But his pockets are too tight to pay

the extra 50 cents a gallon. So again this year, the carbs were fouled. So I ran Sea-foam through them

and they worked fine. 



#21 Rob Voska

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:07 PM

A good way to store chain saws, mowers etc that only get used a little.  Drain the tanks and use lantern fuel to run them before storage.  It's really white gas & has ZERO additives.  That's why your lantern can sit for years & it still works.



#22 Gator Bob

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:35 PM

If this is still on going and the OP would like to have another opinion I'll write something up.

Some science, some business and a dose of experience.


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#23 Pablo

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 08:08 PM

Go for it, Bob. We all know you have problems following civilized internet rules, but it never stopped me from being a "Bob" fan :)

Since I am no longer a Slotblog Administrator, your madness will be seen in a somewhat different light, so to speak :good:

 

Bring it on, I ain't skeered :crazy: but my decision was already made in my post #16


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#24 Mike Patterson

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 09:32 PM

Butch, I just go by what it says on the pumps. If there is ethanol in it, it's usually posted as such. And besides, my Honda dealer recommends Shell.


I am not a doctor, but I played one as a child with the girl next door.


#25 Gator Bob

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 11:29 PM

This class clown (me) finds this amusing , thanks for that. Reading the rants and some shorts getting wound up over some alcohol :)  

 

I'll start with 'what to do to get up to 300k miles, the business side.

 

This is from experience as a station owner in the 80s, a racer that had to go through fuel tech and a hobby farmer using vintage and antique tractors. 

 

1- Buy your fuel from the most busy stations to get the freshest. 

2 -If a tanker is on site and is dumping fuel come back the next day or get it at you next favorite station as the dump stirs up the water and sediment at the bottom of the tanks.

3- Ask If the pump has a 5micron filter, water won't pass through that tight of a filter. AKA as a 'water separator' and those need to be drained at intervals. If the fuel is coming out slower than you remember it's probably loaded up.

4- Buy your fuel in the early morning because the fuel is more dense and you actually get a very little more for your money and the crap is more settled in the underground tank.

 

Anhydrous ethanol as an additive has a greater up side than expected. It is hygroscopic and that way it combines with 'water' and pulls it through the system with out little to any harm to the fuel system. Think about it... when was the last time you had a car die from sucking up a gulp of water or for the northern guys when was the last time you had a gas line freeze up. Remember adding 'DryGas' or 'Heet' to prevent that? I do. That stuff is anhydrous methanol or azeotropic iso-propyl alcohol to 'absorb' water/condensation.

 

1- It replaces MTBE (methyl t-butyl ether) and that 'stuff' is bad/worse for you/us.

 

2- The 'white power' left from evaporation is not new and exclusive to 'gasohol'. I occurs/occurred with MTBE also. It can be much worse in carbs that are vented to the atmosphere (as Sam said) and also there is an etching reaction in zinc chromate and aluminum carbs. With a sealed system as in a EFI car/truck it is 'not a big deal' 

 

3 - Both Anhydrous ethanol and MTBE are added as  'oxygenates', Other specific 'chemicals' are also add to make up what we know as gasoline containing an additive package that varies by brand to enhance shelf life, set Specific Gravity, Reid Vapor Pressure, evaporation rate and detergents added to reduce fuel system deposits.to help keep fuel systems clean,

 

Back to "your" car.

It's not how many miles you put one it in a given period, it is how you put those miles on. What?

Short trips to .. um.. Waffle House where the Motor, Trans and Diff do not get up to operating temperate to 'burn-off' the condensate in those oil filled housings can/will shorten the life of those subsystems. Of course the time/distance to achieve operating temp will vary based on ambient temperature.

 

the point is.

Adding a fuel treatment will have some but minimal effect on the total life of your fuel injected car. (with low/no maintenance crank windows :good: )

Use the best fluids, grease and filters you can buy and change the regularly. No power shifting, brake stands, hole shots or J burns will help a lot ...LOL

Under carrage rust is another enemy to meeting you goal. When it is on the lift next time look carfully at mounting points like control arms, sway bars, trailing arms, body mounts and sheet metal belly pan/floors. An additive I would recommend is an upper cylinder lubricant add to your fuel. to spare the rings, walls and valve seats and guides. 

 

Other things:

The gas pump states the octane rating and not to exceed percentage of Ethanol. 10% is the normal max.  Ethanol can not be rated using RON / Mon methods so a calculation is used BoV IIRC so its final octane rating is AKI (anti knock index) is in spec. for an octane rating.

 

Locally:

100LL is $4.15

The UL non-eth 93 here is $4.01

The UL non-eth 90 is $3.49

The UL 10% eth 87 is $1.95

 

How "I" do it having a variety of 2 stroke carb, 4 stroke carb and EFI and diesel engines

 

I buy the sweet smelling heavy metal LL100 with 2.12 grams of Tetraethyllead. Price per gallon is $4.15 and mix it 50/50 (or less)  with $1.95 unleaded 87.

At a cost of $3.05 9or less)  per/gal I use it in my 2 stroke oil mix and 4 stroke non cat engines... and am happy.

I also always add a dash of Lucus upper cyl fuel treatment and Techron (Detergent) occasionally.

 

In my Cummins Diesel I add 8 oz. of 2 stroke oil to a 35 gallon fill up since they took all the Sulfur out. That is about a 500:1 mix. If my water separator shows more water than I'm comfortable with I add about 3 oz. of 99% Isopropyl when it gets down to just below 1/4 tank. A top Diesel mechanic said "just add a quart of trans fluid to your 35 gal tank. It turn to fuel read and that might new me to cause some Serious explaining if I ever got a highway fuel check. If you get caught with 'red' off-road fuel on the 'highway' it's a $12,000 fine and they take the truck. Thus.. the green 2 stroke oil instead.

 

I run off-road (red) diesel in my New Holland tractor with a 2oz. to 5 gal.

 

All this Mad Science keeps me thinking and entertained... LOL :crazy:

 

One more detail to is maintain a Stoichiometric Air/Fuel Ratio in a carburetor will require re-jetting at or above 10% eth.

In closed loop EFI and Electronic carb cars the oxygen sensor(s) will tell the computer to adjust the fuel mixture accordingly in real time.

 

That should cover it, if I think of anything else I will add it. :heat:


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