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JK Products major update


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#51 LindsayB

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 02:59 PM

We have a unique situation with slot car racing - in general - club tracks aside - we have a brick and mortar business that needs retail sales to maintain a viable business. We have moved into an online world where internet sales are so efficient we don't need to go to the shop to buy stuff.

 

Unfortunately we need the brick and mortar buildings to use our internet-purchased products. If this continues into an Amazon style market we will end up with one track left with a great website.


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#52 Brinkley47

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:02 PM

How often does a track need to send proof of an active race program?
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#53 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:04 PM

I agree Scotty is the 2 AM go-to guy. LOL. He should stay on the island...


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#54 Phil Hackett

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:10 PM

Jim whether we like it or not times have changed we get information in a second and we have a lot of options on how we purchase. That being said more and more manufacturers are cutting out the middleman and selling directly allowing him to be more competitive with their pricing. As I said this appears to be no loss for the raceways and yes it will have an impact on the distributors unfortunately this is the way marketing is going throughout the country and every way a imanageable Mac

 

Not to argue... but how does one explain Amazon if "everyone's going" direct"? Amazon IS a middle-man.


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#55 Mark Wampler

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:11 PM

Somehow I'm not seeing this as being set in concrete.  The vacuum created will also provide a boost in sales for other mfg's.

That is a good thing for them.  How the market share will swing should be in full view in a short amount of time.


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#56 jimht

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:16 PM

Raceways that are solely dependent on racing, sales of race cars and retail sales of racing parts may slightly increase their profit margin...meaning they will last maybe 30 months instead of the standard 24.

Marketing...is the market so small that JK can market his product to it all by himself without the aid of the Distributors?

 

We lost Champion, we've lost Parma...this action is an indicator of a still shrinking market even though the real competition has gone.  A manufacturer that becomes his own Distributor is not protecting his customers and increasing his market, he's increasing his profit margin.

 

If the Distributors have refused to change their practices at JK's request, I'm sure they have a reason...their attitude may be like mine, once I own something I'll sell it to whomever I want at whatever price I want.

The Distributors have been noted through the years as steadfast adherents to supporting Raceways. If that has changed it's news to me.

 

I'd be interested in hearing from other long term Raceway owners just how much their sales have been affected by folks walking through their doors with stuff they bought elsewhere instead of where they are racing.

 

An edit, keep what's happened to Wing cars out of it, I don't think it's comparable.


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#57 LindsayB

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 04:19 PM

Jimh, we lost a lot of tracks last year in OZ (more than 50%). The tracks here run on different margins and have different tax structures and higher shipping costs. To survive the tracks resell at a higher margin than in the U.S - not to make more money, simply to break even.

 

We had groups of racers that would pool together to buy batches of JK Hawk motors (in quantities of above 40) from a web based track in the U.S because it was cheaper, not surprising the local track closed because he could no longer afford rent. I guess the point I am trying to make is 3 mega raceways with great online sales is on the longer term is not going to be a healthy situation.


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#58 Dan Ebert

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 04:35 PM

Only problem I see for track owners.  If every manufacturer follows this method.  Track owners will be ordering from dozens of different places to fill their showcases.   I just can't imagine doing that as a track owner.   I dealt with one distributor, quick, easy and simple. 


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#59 Mark Wampler

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 04:46 PM

  I dealt with one distributor, quick, easy and simple. 

 

The local opinion.


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#60 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 05:24 PM

The times have and continue to change, and no one has a full understanding of the long-term effects.

 

That is not just a slot car thing.


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#61 Danny Zona

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 05:24 PM

Only problem I see for track owners.  If every manufacturer follows this method.  Track owners will be ordering from dozens of different places to fill their showcases.   I just can't imagine doing that as a track owner.   I dealt with one distributor, quick, easy and simple. 

Main reason FL has always had a distributor rule for the past decade.

I'm sure there will be some type of amendment and more news on it eventually.

It's just how it goes. 😎
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#62 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 05:51 PM

 

Not to argue... but how does one explain Amazon if "everyone's going" direct"? Amazon IS a middle-man.

No argument at all Phil but I never mentioned Amazon I would agree they are a retail distributor, same as Sears, macy's Etc. but not a wholesale one. Most gas stations are owned by the oil companies that produce the fuel . Direct from manufacturer, no middleman. We hear this advertisement every where about direct from the factory sales like windows , furniture ETC. .

IMO what JK is doing is a Hybrid in Sales and supply chain  with an option for wholesale sales and Direct retail with the caveat of the retail store getting a credit from the manufacture. A novel approach. 


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#63 n9949y

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 06:11 PM

No commercial tracks here in Oregon but a number of club and home tracks racing exclusively 1/24th equipment regularly and weekly. To maintain our large slot car stables of hundreds of cars all being raced we buy wherever we can obtain pieces and parts. Over the years I've purchased a lot of stuff via phone and e-mail ( the 21st century way) from Scott of PCH. His service is exemplary selling his merchandise at retail, no discounting to undercut manufacturers and distributors. He maintains a well stocked inventory so I've never had to wait for items I've purchased.


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#64 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 08:40 PM

I for one think it's all good. Certainly if I were a distributor, I might not be thrilled with all this, but I'm neither a racer or a distributor or a track either.  Now that you mention it, I don't know exactly what I am! Anywho, existential considerations aside (I'll have to check with Descartes and get back later on all this), I can't see anything but a good thing here. Personally, I buy from both Scott and PCH all the time for very simple reasons:

1) They have the stuff I need
2) Their prices are fair

3) Their service is consistently good

Look, in the interests of full disclosure, I've been a "fan" of what JK has been doing since before Tim took the reins. I have no dog in this fight (*not that there's a fight actually going on), but moving the hobby forward is something I'm always going to support. JK products' business model seems to me to dovetail nicely with all that. Add to that the simple-but-painful reality that slots is an ever-decreasing "pool," and anything that aims to serve the slotter directly ought to be seen as a positive.  

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!  I haven't been into a raceway in decades, so you may very well choose to completely discount what I just said. I'll still think you're cool.   :D

 

Judging by the back-and-forth between Scott and Tim in this thread... JK's new policy could very well mean that you won't be able to buy from Scott in the future.

 

I like this business model. My "home" track is a bit over an hour away. If I need something, I would have to call to check if they have it. Then if not, have them order it and "hope" the distributor has it (and the last order I had them place, 3/4 of the stuff was unavailable). Then drive down to get the parts. I could order from another raceway that I go to in the series I race, but I prefer to give the profit to the one I would most likely go to on a weekly basis.  With this new business model, I can get the parts I need pretty quickly, and my "home" track has a better chance of staying in business. Just the price of gas is worth the shipping costs, not to mention the time.  

 

Your "home" track really needs the 40% that they earn on your business rather than the 15% that JK is going to send them when you buy from JK.  

 

I also have to order from out-of-town. I've learned to leave a little extra time and send an order so that the raceway can order anything that they might be out of and then ship to me all at one time.

 

ok lets see if i have this right for me as a user of JK products..

  • The raceway buys JK products directly from JK at a better price margin.Can buy in any quantity they want and don't have to wait till there order is big enough. 
  • Racers continue to get JK products at there raceway
  • Direct access to the manufacturer.
  • As I don't have a home track  ( closest track is an Hour away ) I can continue to purchase from  the Track I race at. If i cant wait from Tracks like HVR or PCH with online stores.
  • I can also as before if I wish, purchase directly from JK but, now with a new added benefit of directing a 15% credit to the Raceway of my choice.
  • This system works for me because Not having a home track, i can buy when i need to from JK and the track gets a piece where before they got nothing.
  • Tracks that don't have online sales could benefit from the 15% credit if chosen. 

 ok what am i missing

 

The 45% discount isn't that much better than raceways get now.  Or at least what we got as a raceway when we closed 5/31/15.   Standard discounts ranged from 40% to 43% with additional incentives for reaching what was an easily obtainable level.  Not being able to buy JK products from the distributor is going to make it harder for raceways to reach that level.  And that's going to mean the raceway is going to have to pay more for their parts and perhaps not qualify for free shipping --- or settle for slower shipping.

 

Please buy from your raceway... they truly do need the 40% they get when you buy from them versus the 15% they'll get when you buy from JK.  

 

I'd be far more impressed if JK was kicking the full 40% to the raceway. Seems like they could afford to do so since they've eliminated the distributor's cut.


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#65 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 09:05 PM

Rollin, the problem is the DISTRIBUTOR does not have what I want.  So how is the raceway going to sell it to me if that's the case?


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#66 Zippity

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 09:19 PM

It all comes down to greed - pure and simple!!


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#67 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 09:36 PM

Rollin, the problem is the DISTRIBUTOR does not have what I want. So how is the raceway going to sell it to me if that's the case?

 

John, are you saying that no distributor has what you want? What are you looking for that the distributor doesn't have but JK does have?


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#68 John Streisguth

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:25 AM

I have no idea which distributor the track uses. Nor do I care. There are multiple items, some are JK, some or other manufacturers. A couple of JK bodies I need weren't even available at PCH. And even if they were, I would prefer to get them in a manner that my track at least gets a cut.

 

So people are complaining about the possibility of ordering from multiple places; if you have to piecemeal your inventory from multiple distributors, that you may not reach a minimum with, how is that better? So now I end up buying from places other than my local track and they get nothing... how is that better?

 

Not going to argue this any further. We'll soon find out what the weak link in the supply chain is.


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#69 NSwanberg

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 04:29 AM

Jim whether we like it or not times have changed we get information in a second and we have a lot of options on how we purchase. That being said more and more manufacturers are cutting out the middleman and selling directly allowing him to be more competitive with their pricing. As I said this appears to be no loss for the raceways and yes it will have an impact on the distributors unfortunately this is the way marketing is going throughout the country and every way a imanageable Mac


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#70 havlicek

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 07:03 AM

Judging by the back-and-forth between Scott and Tim in this thread... JK's new policy could very well mean that you won't be able to buy from Scott in the future.


Well, what it means (maybe) is that I will continue to buy from Scott, and just buy JK stuff wherever I am directed to. JK has good stuff, and Scott has good stuff, so it's not like any of this will change my preferences... just how I order things. For me anyway, it's all very simple.
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#71 kvanpelt

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 10:09 AM

A point made that I read elsewhere;
 
"Raceways can't pay their rent and electric bills with a 15% JK credit to buy more JK stuff."
 
No matter what Tim says, IMO, this can't be good for raceways and that is my main concern. We need raceways and they need to be profitable. Taking away a potential 40% mark-up and turning it into a 15% credit for the raceway and 25% profit in Tim's pocket, may be good for Tim and a few others, but not the raceways (see post #66).
 
I played with toy cars in my basement as a kid, which was fun, but racing at the raceway is more fun! Sorry if Tim never had that experience.
 
The JK Products that I knew and loved was innovative and promoting. The new JK Products seems to be more concerned with other things.


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#72 Cheater

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 11:25 AM

Taking away a potential 40% mark-up and turning it into a 15% credit for the raceway and 25% profit in Tim's pocket, may be good for Tim and a few others, but not the raceways.


Your "home" track really needs the 40% that they earn on your business rather than the 15% that JK is going to send them when you buy from JK.


Gentlemen, your statements above are not aligned with the posted facts IMO.

From the initial post: "The raceways will enjoy higher discounts purchasing directly than they received from the distributors." Tell me how this is not good for the raceways please?

I'd also like to know just what value the distributors currently bring to the raceway industry, other than one-stop shopping? And the word I get is that almost every raceway has to order from multiple distributors.

The bigger issue is that the distributors are selling to non-raceways, resellers operating on the net, and direct to racers, sometimes at discount, all of which are in direct contravention of the distributors' announced policies. What did Tim say in post #2 under the fourth diagram? "We begged the distributors to stop selling to non-raceways over a year ago but they refused."

I think you're missing the point if you feel JK is targeting the individual racers, because that's not how I see it. The 15% commission is nothing more than a gift to the raceway industry, in cases where a racer doesn't have access to a local raceway or, more usually, when a local raceway won't stock the JK products the racer wishes to purchase. Don't forget that the raceway doesn't make the 40% unless he makes a sale!

For the raceway to have to settle for the 15%, instead of the 45% raceway discount Tim is installing, two situations first have to occur. (1) The raceway has to neglect to stock the JK products that the racer wants to purchase and (2) the racer has to decide to take his business elsewhere, whether it be to another raceway, eBay, or direct from JK. Only in the direct-from-JK situation does the raceway get a cent if he doesn't stock the parts the racer desires. Yet, most here seem to be labeling Tim as the bad guy here, doing something horrible. I just don't get it...

As Tim stated in his post #1: "Please order from raceways whenever possible. Please do not purchase from non-raceways." He'd much, much rather racers buy JK Products from their local raceways where they race than order direct, if for no other reasons than the higher efficiency and lower cost of shipping fewer larger orders as compared to more smaller ones.

But having talked to Tim about this many months ago, I know for absolute fact his primary motivation is to do something to help the raceways stay open. He knows that the raceways are the foundation of the competitive slot car hobby in the US and if they disappear, so probably will JK Products. Please point me to any other manufacturer who is doing anything of consequence to assist the raceways in any way.


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#73 old & gray

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:03 PM

I'd also like to know just what value the distributors currently bring to the raceway industry, other than one-stop shopping? And the word I get is that almost every raceway has to order from multiple distributors.

 
It’s been many decades since I was on the seller’s side of the counter. From my observations of a current raceway, weekly racers running Retro (for example) average about six per week. As an example of consumables (tires and motors) the raceway knows a pair of tires will last two weeks and a motor will last four weeks (these are SWAG estimates for purposes of illustration). So a monthly order isf six motors and a dozen tires.

The raceway is holding a regional race and the expected draw is 24 racers. Now some will bring their own and some will buy the day of. Looking just at JK’s page there are 4 rim diameters and 3 compounds, that’s 12 different items to buy and stock in the showcase. The solution, a call to the distributor, and a box is shipped to the store on consignment. The raceway has stock for the race without a cash outlay or dead stock hanging on after the race. There is a cost for shipping, but the racers needs are met and a profit is made.
 
JK is a “full line” manufacturer (just about every part for a car and controllers) a raceway can easily order and stock from them to have a complete inventory. The manufacturers who specialize in one or two items are the ones who should benefit from the distributor model and would be squeezed in a direct ship/minimum order model.


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#74 kvanpelt

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:23 PM

My apologies to Tim and JK Products for my above post.

 

I have been shown the errors of my thinking by those far more involved and knowledgeable in these matters. Tim has the well-being of the slot car industry as his motivation. I wish him success in his plans to help keep this great hobby alive and kicking!

 

See you at the track! 


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#75 Mattb

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:43 PM

Many sides to this deal. Just keep supporting your local track and be glad you have one. I will continue to order from three different online dealers, one which is a brick and mortar slot car center. I am thankful for them all. Everything that I can buy at my local track is bought there, price is not an issue. I will pay $1 or $2 more for some tires to support my track. Postage would probably eat up any cheaper price online anyway.   

 

I have a good supply of generic parts on hand. When I pay my race money at my track, I most always buy some extra parts rather than just fork over $5 for racing all nite! I feel guilty spending five hours or so in a raceway and only paying $1 an hour to run as much as I want. I want my local track to not just survive, but to be healthy!!!


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#76 JK Products

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:44 PM

Hi Kevin,

 

No need for the apology (but thanks). 

 

I'll have more information better explaining the situation and correcting many apparently common misconceptions very soon. 


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#77 Greg Erskine

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 06:21 PM

I would like an option on the JK web site to email my order to my local (international) raceway. So I can use JK's complete, up-to-date product database to create my order. I seem to buy more when it all there in front of me and is easy to do. The track owner can then process the emailed order, get the bigger margin and handle the delivery, postage (and duties).

 

They may also get a better idea of what is currently being purchased in the background, and maybe, it will help to correct their stocking levels.

 

Regards,

 

Greg


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#78 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 09:10 PM

Gentlemen, your statements above are not aligned with the posted facts IMO.

From the initial post: "The raceways will enjoy higher discounts purchasing directly than they received from the distributors." Tell me how this is not good for the raceways please?

I'd also like to know just what value the distributors currently bring to the raceway industry, other than one-stop shopping? And the word I get is that almost every raceway has to order from multiple distributors.

The bigger issue is that the distributors are selling to non-raceways, resellers operating on the net, and direct to racers, sometimes at discount, all of which are in direct contravention of the distributors' announced policies. What did Tim say in post #2 under the fourth diagram? "We begged the distributors to stop selling to non-raceways over a year ago but they refused."

I think you're missing the point if you feel JK is targeting the individual racers, because that's not how I see it. The 15% commission is nothing more than a gift to the raceway industry, in cases where a racer doesn't have access to a local raceway or, more usually, when a local raceway won't stock the JK products the racer wishes to purchase. Don't forget that the raceway doesn't make the 40% unless he makes a sale!

For the raceway to have to settle for the 15%, instead of the 45% raceway discount Tim is installing, two situations first have to occur. (1) The raceway has to neglect to stock the JK products that the racer wants to purchase and (2) the racer has to decide to take his business elsewhere, whether it be to another raceway, eBay, or direct from JK. Only in the direct-from-JK situation does the raceway get a cent if he doesn't stock the parts the racer desires. Yet, most here seem to be labeling Tim as the bad guy here, doing something horrible. I just don't get it...

As Tim stated in his post #1: "Please order from raceways whenever possible. Please do not purchase from non-raceways." He'd much, much rather racers buy JK Products from their local raceways where they race than order direct, if for no other reasons than the higher efficiency and lower cost of shipping fewer larger orders as compared to more smaller ones.

But having talked to Tim about this many months ago, I know for absolute fact his primary motivation is to do something to help the raceways stay open. He knows that the raceways are the foundation of the competitive slot car hobby in the US and if they disappear, so probably will JK Products. Please point me to any other manufacturer who is doing anything of consequence to assist the raceways in any way.

 

Greg... I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong... but you haven't convinced me that I am.   :)  I can't explain exactly why what Tim is doing has rubbed me the wrong way... but it has.

 

Regarding "The raceways will enjoy higher discounts"... things could have changed, but Tim's offer of 45% isn't much different than what we received. We received a 43% discount from one distributor, a 41% discount from another distributor, and a 40% discount from another distributor – and that one offered an additional 5% discount off of the net if the order was at least $200 or $300 (wish I could remember.) I think all of them offered free shipping and/or upgraded shipping for reaching a certain level. Tim's extra 2% isn't worth my time of placing extra orders.

 

And, if you take all of the JK products off of my order to the distributor (and they were a big part of my order) it would make it harder for me to qualify for the additional discount and/or free shipping from the distributor. That means all of the other products on the wall will see a price increase to cover not qualifying for additional discounts and having to pay for shipping.

 

Regarding "What value the distributors bring"...  For me the one-stop shopping was huge. I ordered parts weekly from our primary distributor and only had to order from one of the other two distributors we used perhaps twice a month. Having to order from a second source every week and a third source twice a month means a further encroachment into the little private time any business owner enjoys. 

 

The additional value that the distributors bring is that we had earned the ability to pay two of our distributors on a Net 30 basis. That meant we didn't have to immediately come out of pocket for our order and had a little time to sell part of that order before we wrote the check. I haven't seen whether Tim is offering credit terms or not.

 

Regarding distributors selling to "others."... I think manufacturers selling directly to racers is a much bigger issue than distributors selling to resellers. I occasionally had a trusted racer "test" distributors and manufacturers. Every distributor referred them to their nearby raceway. More than one manufacturer gladly sold to the racer. Sometimes at retail. Sometimes at a discount. Fortunately, most manufacturers told him "no."  Remember... JK has had a direct to anyone online store for years. I only had to have one conversation with Jerry to reach an understanding that he'd notify me so I could order what the racer wanted (tire donuts.)

 

I think the existence of resellers and the reason for their success is mostly the result of racers that don't have a raceway near them or their home raceway doesn't keep the wall well-stocked. I've raced at shops that wouldn't order specific parts because it was an imposition to vary from their standard order. I've also raced at shops that didn't keep their accounts in good standing and couldn't order from any distributor until they caught up. That means racers have to go elsewhere to get what they need to race.

 

Again, I'm not naive enough to think that all of our customers only bought from us. However, I believe that it was a very, very small percentage that shopped elsewhere because we kept a very, very well-stocked parts wall so racers had very little reason to shop elsewhere. Anything that I didn't have on the wall (perhaps something for a class that we didn't race) I could usually get in two days and I offered to ship it to their house for free. We understood the value of each racer (roughly $3,600 their first year and $2,400 each year after that) and made sure they knew we valued their business.

 

Regarding "missing the point."...  No, I don't think JK is targeting racers at all. Rather, I think he wants the online business from racers for himself that is currently going to a reseller for JK parts. I realize that the 15% is a gift... But, since Tim has eliminated the distributor's cut of the retail price, I'd be more impressed if he sent 40% to the raceway instead of 15%.  

 

Let's look at a $10 retail part that cost the raceway $6 from the distributor and will now cost the raceway $5.50 from JK. The distributor had obviously paid JK something less than $6 so the distributor could make a profit. Let's say the distributor paid JK $5 for the part and kept $1 for themselves. The new model means that JK is collecting $10 for that direct sale and is keeping $8.50 of it instead of getting $5 from the distributor. Huge increase for him and will unfortunately make some racers feel like it's okay for them to shop directly with JK since the raceway is getting 15%.

 

And, yes, it would be great for other manufacturers to follow suit... even if it's just the token 15%. But it would be even better if manufacturers wouldn't sell to racers at all.


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#79 Cheater

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 09:53 PM

Regarding "The raceways will enjoy higher discounts"... things could have changed, but Tim's offer of 45% isn't much different than what we received.


Fair enough, but my claim here isn't wrong. You know the old joke about Benjamin Franklin and the French courtesan he offered a large sum and then a small one to bed him?
 

Regarding "What value the distributors bring"...  For me the one-stop shopping was huge. I ordered parts weekly from our primary distributor and only had to order from one of the other two distributors we used perhaps twice a month. Having to order from a second source every week and a third source twice a month means a further encroachment into the little private time any business owner enjoys.


Fair enough, but JK is nowhere near the first manuafacturer to abandon the distribution channel. Won't bother to list them, but I don't understand why it wasn't such a big deal for them to do it and now for JK it is.
 

Regarding distributors selling to "others."... I think manufacturers selling directly to racers is a much bigger issue than distributors selling to resellers.


We'll have to disagree on this point, as the sales numbers I have been seeing for certainer resellers on eBay are huge. Does it not bother you that the distributors are ignoring their own policies when they do sell to non-raceways and resellers? The information I have received says they all admit to doing it, even if your 'tests' didn't show that.
 

I think the existence of resellers and the reason for their success is mostly the result of racers that don't have a raceway near them or their home raceway doesn't keep the wall well-stocked... That means racers have to go elsewhere to get what they need to race.


Agree but I can't see that JK is the central problem in any of the situations you describe.
 

Regarding "missing the point"...  No, I don't think JK is targeting racers at all. Rather, I think he wants for himself the online business from racers that is currently going to a reseller for JK parts.


And why shouldn't he? If you were in his shoes, would you feel any differently? The critical point is that the business that is going to the resellers doesn't benefit the raceway side in any way and in fact, almost certainly harms it.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#80 tonyp

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 06:34 AM

I think we need for Tim to officially post his whole plan. Before criticizing It. It seems well thought-out and will benefit the shops in my opinion.


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#81 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 07:51 AM

Agreed.

 

And if there's more to the plan that will truly benefit the shops and the racers, then I will gladly support the plan.


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#82 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 07:55 AM

If Tim has a more informative statement concerning his plan with more detail how the raceways will be increasing their income, I think Tim should start a new topic posting. And this thread could get locked. Like a reset.


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#83 Cheater

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 07:59 AM

Probably not in real danger of being locked, so long as it remains as civil as it has been. (Thank you, gentlemen!).

 

But, yes, once a thread get into a couple of pages or more, people tend not to read new posts made to it. So I agree about the advisability of starting anew.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#84 JK Products

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 12:59 PM

Please see this THREAD for further comment.


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