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PS 4002FK - why? (serious question)


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#1 JimF

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:46 PM

OK... I have no dog in this fight a-tall, and this is not intended as a troll.

 

However, as a Retro program director, I have a question. Why would anyone adopt the 4002 FK with its endemic problems? I've seen threads that devolved into arguments, gripes, defense, and offense on this subject. Many statements are made that it's an easy fix, just align the hoods (sealed motor) or cut the brushes.

 

OK fine but is that the spirit of the current SOTA Retro world? IOW... "Retro is about driving, car prep and chassis building and not about working on motors." Except in this case, ya prolly gotsta' work on the motor. As a counterpoint, with the HR or H7, not only do you not have to work on the motor... FTMP, you can't.

 

Out here on the weirdo left coast, (north and south) we find no need for these motors. Both North and South have a class for PS motors that we run occasionally. These are basically motor builders classes and the problems of the FK 4002 do not apply. Aside from that, we are happy with the HR and in NorCal anyway the HMB. Between us in North and South, we run more classes on more different styles of tracks than any other single region. We've never felt any need whatsoever to adopt the 4002 FK.

 

So... why do some regions feel the need to adopt it and then agonize/fight about the shortcomings when the HR or H7 or even the HMB do not have these issues?

 

  • Is there some attribute of these motors that make them somehow better for some types of cars?
  • Does that attribute override the necessity of "motor work" on at least some in order to make them functional?

-----------------or-----------------

 

  • Was this a strategy adopted to favor a particular manufacturer who would be getting little play in RETRO otherwise???

 

Not looking to fight, just wondering... ???


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#2 Zippity

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:51 PM

In our case (read New Zealand here) the decision was made to adopt the PS4002FK motor as the motor of choice for our lower end class cars i.e. F1 and LMP.

 

Regardless of the inherent problems with these motors on our high-powered club tracks, the "powers-that-be" now find themselves entrenched so deep that they cannot back out of what has proven to be the wrong choice of motor. 


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#3 JimF

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:59 PM

Regardless of the inherent problems with these motors on our high powered club tracks, the "powers-to-be" now find themselves entrenched so deep that they cannot back out of what has proven to be, the wrong choice of motor. 

 

Thanks, Ron. That factor is certainly an issue I can understand. I made some serious mistakes myself when the original S7 Mini Brute was discontinued. Some of the "solutions" that I tried were not real good choices. You can sometimes get yourself boxed in with choices like that.


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#4 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:04 PM

The 4002FK was chosen as a low-cost alternative to the C-can GTP ruleset raced by the Ohio Challenge Cup four years ago which had been badly suffering for car counts. Originally, FK-powered GTPs were categorized as "GTP Light" and raced in with the C-cans though being scored separately. After one season of this, it was noted that the FK-powered cars were scoring overall wins against the host of Super Wasps, Contenders, and S16C's that made up the C-can field. 

While certainly there are any number of reasons for this, what's important is that seeing that a $15 motor lived happily on so many tracks and had led to a growth in entries in the class led to the decision to make GTP in the Ohio Challenge Cup solely an FK-powered class. Motor failures occur, but have been quite rare - possibly owing to the sustained high RPM usage and relatively light cars in which they live - and GTP has rebounded to become the second most popular class in the Ohio Challenge Cup.

I can honestly say the motor has done nothing but good for our series. 


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#5 JimF

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:16 PM

Justin... thank you.

 

Does your program require the PS remain sealed vs. the Contenders, etc., which clearly are not? Also, would the 4002 FK have provided a better alternative in increasing participation that say a H7. Hawk 7 = fast, light, no motor work... vs. ...4002 FK = fast, light but need motor work to be reliable???

 

In the case of allowing opening and working on the PS 4002 FK... this would bring it into a different realm than the original question of 4002 FK vs. the various sealed FK motors.


Jim Fowler

#6 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:25 PM

When introduced and up to this day, the 4002FK has remained sealed, even when it was squaring off against the open Contenders. The thought process at the time of introduction was a motor with similar enough performance that the cars could run together, but that the C-cans would still be ultimately faster. As such, the cars were scored separately. 

At the close of the season, due to the rapid growth of the FK-powered "GTP Lights" and their demonstrated ability to win overall among the GTPs, the decision was made to shelve C-can GTP. 

As I was not part of the decision-making process at the time, I honestly couldn't tell you why the Hawk 7 or Hawk 6 were not considered. Personally speaking, I likely would have evaluated an open-FK program as an alternative motor package, based around the American arms available for the Hawk 6 and PS4002 setups. 

Granted, the success of the category (20 cars competed this past Saturday at our season opener, with an average field of 18 cars last season) seems to tell me that the right decision was made. 


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#7 Jason Holmes

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:27 PM

Jim.

 

I love these little motors. The problem is an easy fix, brush trim if your rules allow. It's like running a Euro motor, awesome brakes, no coast. Wish we could run them in a class in SoCal Retro.

 

Here I am building them up and a problem cost me the win in GRP F at the Nats. Motor lasted till the end of the last heat when I didn't think it would. Lifted a comm segment 30 sec. into the last heat, not a normal problem. Thank goodness for a four-lap lead to start. Still got second by 1 but lost 7 laps to Roy for first. But he deserved the win; I'm glad for him. 


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#8 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:53 PM

For about the same bucks as the H7, RH7, and other FK130 motors, the 4002FK is a great value.

When it gives up the ghost you can replace the arm and still have something to toy around with.

Trimming the brushes takes literally seconds and is a permanent fix. We ran a Enduro race a few years back on our 220 foot Engleman. The winning car made about 2,000 laps using cut brushes. The post-race inspection showed the brushes had plenty of life left.

<Warning thread drift ahead>

No way the 4002FK was taking Sontenders, Super Wasp, or S16C. Something must have been awry.


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#9 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:59 PM

OCC race results - Apr 25, Hot Wheels Haven, Elyria, OH
 
Here's the last gasp of the C-cans in the Ohio Challenge Cup on a 145' Kingleman. It sounds ridiculous, but it's what was happening at the time. 
 
Now, does this necessarily mean that the C-cans in question were the latest/greatest and perfectly dialed in? Hard to say, but this was commonplace that season and led to the call to pull the C-cans.
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#10 JimF

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:15 PM

Thanks for all the replies so far. I really appreciate it. I guess my confusion lies within the following and especially as it relates to Retro racing...

  • No doubt that at least a fair number of PS FK requires some knowledge and work to be functional. Some don't but many do.
  • The HR & H7 do not require work and in fact their designs make motor work very difficult.

Given that the founding premise of Retro Racing was to eliminate motor work (as much as possible)... How does this benefit Retro racing within the context of the original concept?


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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:19 PM

Hi Jim,

 

Are you on FB?


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#12 Noose

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:21 PM

Jim,

 

There is only one group running these motors in Retro classes. Most of the use is in flexi, hard bodies, and low cost wing racing.


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#13 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:54 PM

Jim- you are a talented guy who posts many articles testing cars and setups here. Why don't you get one of these PS FK motors and form your own opinion? I think they run great with excellent reliability in my cars. Just trim the trailing edge of the brushes when the motor gets a few hundred laps on it. It's faster than a Hawk Retro or Hawk7 with better torque and brakes. Have fun.

#14 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:54 PM

Thanks for all the replies so far. I really appreciate it. I guess my confusion lies within the following and especially as it relates to Retro racing...

  • No doubt that at least a fair number of PS FK requires some knowledge and work to be functional. Some don't but many do.
  • The HR & H7 do not require work and in fact their designs make motor work very difficult.

 
I don't feel that the point that the 4002FK requires knowledge and work to be functional is firmly established, Jim. Truthfully, we simply do not have this failure rate you describe in the Ohio Challenge Cup with the potential exception of the Mark's Model World round, however that track is a known killer of all motors between its high speeds and its ample power supplies. 
 
I will very clearly tell you, the 4002FK is a great little beast of a motor. No. I don't like it in Retro cars because I don't like its torque curve or braking in my Retro cars, but that's entirely different from characterizing it as an unreliable barrel of secrets.


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#15 Tim Neja

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:41 PM

Jim,  If as you say take the premise that "Retro racing" is about driving, chassis, and building. That's the original intent of the designers, then the sealed motors are the ONLY way to go!! The 4002FK REQUIRES tinkering on it!!! And---the concern is once you're allowed to "tinker" on it---WHERE does it stop!! Old argument--but the growth of Retro racing has born out the truth of sealed motors you don't touch. 


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#16 JimF

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:42 PM

Are you on FB?

 
No.
 

Jim- you are a talented guy who posts many articles testing cars and setups here. Why don't you get one of these PS FK motors and form your own opinion? I think they run great with excellent reliability in my cars. Just trim the trailing edge of the brushes when the motor gets a few hundred laps on it. It's faster than a Hawk Retro or Hawk7 with better torque and brakes. Have fun.

 
Thanks for the props. In fact, I purchased three when I messed around with a Can-Am Plus a while back. I did form my own opinion which was that the motor was somewhat problematic as to stock form reliability. I am a pretty good motor builder with decades of experience as such. The allure of Retro is that I don't have to take the time or expend the effort to exercise that skill very often. Whether it is faster than a RH or H7 is irrelevant. Faster does not make something better,
 

I don't feel that the point that the 4002FK requires knowledge and work to be functional is firmly established, Jim. Truthfully, we simply do not have this failure rate you describe in the Ohio Challenge Cup with the potential exception of the Mark's Model World round, however that track is a known killer of all motors between its high speeds and its ample power supplies. 
 
I will very clearly tell you, the 4002FK is a great little beast of a motor. No. I don't like it in Retro cars because I don't like its torque curve or braking in my Retro cars, but that's entirely different from characterizing it as an unreliable barrel of secrets.

 
Whether one track or another is a motor killer does not justify the need to work on the motor in order to get it off the line without a push start. I'm not concerned with the occasional blowup or melted endbells. (I would note that those are apparently legit concerns when considering the number of posts about those subjects) Whether it is fast, a beast, or requires only small modifications to be functional, the question remains... why bother when there are motors at the same price that have proven that they do not require those simple modifications?


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#17 Samiam

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:13 PM

There is an unexplained attraction for us slot heads to a motor that looks like a proper motor. Even if it has a seal that tries to keep our fingers (needlenose pliers) out of its innards. Even if it makes more sense to use a motor that looks like a miniature sardine can with a shaft coming out of it. Some racers just got to have those brush hoods and spring posts.

 

When I ran PS 4002s in my IRRA® Stock Cars, I enjoyed the tweaking I could do on it. I would remove all the endbell hardware, transfer to a dummy motor and align them with my 30-year old  Koford tools. Then move them back. Then spend some time with my 30-year old Sonic Fiddlestick. Did I need to do this? Was it more accurate than just eyeballing the hoods? I don't know. But it made me feel like I was improving my motor's performance. Other than messing with a myriad of break-in techniques, nothing else to mess with on the sealed can motors. And there's nothing wrong with that. 


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#18 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:17 PM

It sounds like guys are going to great lengths to break-in the other motors (JK) so I don't think many are just racing them straight out of the package.

 

Run what you like and have fun.


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#19 crazyphysicsteacher

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 08:59 AM

And as Kevin just said, that is the allure. I can check the brushes and replace a bad set to make a bad motor better. It becomes cheaper in the mind than having to break-in multiple motors in various liquids to try to find a good one. They are also easier to identify as good without the need for track time.

 

We almost went to them as a regular class motor awhile back when the Deathstar went missing, but did not because of the necessary rule changes.


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#20 A. J. Hoyt

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 09:08 AM

They run the PS FK motor at Dallas Slot Cars in their once-a-month Retro program. I participated twice (staying over on those Saturdays from my on-site work duties in Dallas) and they are a good bunch of guys with an impressively well-disciplined racing program run personally by Shontel, the track owner.
 
They experience the same problems that were not uncommon at Downriver Raceway in MI with the PS FK motor: cars occasionally not starting at the start of the race, the start of a heat, or the start after a track call.
 
The cries of "Push, push, push!" throughout the race at Dallas caused one of the racers to comment, "Hey, it sounds like a maternity ward in here!" and I just lost it laughing well past the end of the race. Like I said, a great group of guys with a great sense of humor.

 

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#21 JimF

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 09:50 AM

Certainly a lot of defense of the motor which is understandable but no feedback at all on the "why" it was adopted in the first place which was the original question. With the endemic problems that the motor has, there would be no compelling reason to adopt it in future in place of any existing motor that does not exhibit those problems.

 

Thanks again for all the input. It is much appreciated.


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#22 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 10:18 AM

For Ohio Challenge Cup GTP, the primary reasons for its adoption as a "GTP Light" motor were that it was a sealed motor that offered more performance, particularly in torque and braking, than other available sealed motors. Its power delivery and braking were most similar to the existing C-can GTP ruleset of the Ohio Challenge Cup at the time and so the motor was offered as a budget alternative. 
 

If at that time there had been a sub-$20 sealed Contender or Wasp that would have likely been the chosen motor for the category. There wasn't, so the FK came in. 


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#23 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 10:20 AM

OK fine but is that the spirit of the current SOTA Retro world? IOW... "Retro is about driving, car prep and chassis building and not about working on motors." Except in this case, ya prolly gotsta' work on the motor.

As a counterpoint, with the HR or H7, not only do you not have to work on the motor... FTMP, you can't.

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#24 MSwiss

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 11:20 AM

Hi Jim,

 

Are you on FB?

 

 

Jim,

 

There is only one group running these motors in Retro classes. Most of the use is in flexi, hard bodies, and low cost wing racing.

 

 

Certainly a lot of defense of the motor which is understandable but no feedback at all on the "why" it was adopted in the first place which was the original question. With the endemic problems that the motor has, there would be no compelling reason to adopt it in future in place of any existing motor that does not exhibit those problems.

Jim,

As Joe stated , there is only one Retro group (actually 2 adjacent groups , I think that are run by the same person) that use that motor.

 

Also, the guy behind my monthly mixed genre races allows them, but those races are so casual, I don't really care one way or another.

 

Since the head of the (2?) org(s) mentioned above, doesn't have access to posting on Slotblog, if you really need some robust dialog on the subject, I suggest;

 

A) pose your question on OWH, where he may spot it, and respond.

 

B) join Facebook, where I'm sure he'll be happy to joust a bit, with you, on the subject.

 

C) skip A and B, and go with the more painless option. Drive to Sears. Find their biggest Craftsman vice. Open the jaws all the way. Stick your head in. Turn the handle clockwise until you forget what your original question was.


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#25 Uncle Fred

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 11:33 AM

Well AJ it's been great racing and laughing at... ah with you. Thanks for the good words about the Dallas series, where we have successfully been running the PS FK for a couple of years. 
 

Thanks for the props. In fact, I purchased three when I messed around with a Can-Am Plus a while back. I did form my own opinion which was that the motor was somewhat problematic as to stock form reliability. I am a pretty good motor builder with decades of experience as such. The allure of Retro is that I don't have to take the time or expend the effort to exercise that skill very often. Whether it is faster than a RH or H7 is irrelevant. Faster does not make something better,
 
Whether one track or another is a motor killer does not justify the need to work on the motor in order to get it off the line without a push start. I'm not concerned with the occasional blow-up or melted endbells. (I would note that those are apparently legit concerns when considering the number of posts about those subjects.) Whether it is fast, a beast, or requires only small modifications to be functional, the question remains... why bother when there are motors at the same price that have proven that they do not require those simple modifications?

 
Jim, I have raced both motors and like the PS FK better because of the brushes. They last longer and are replaceable meaning the motor lasts longer. The modification that we are referring to is very minor and in many cases not even necessary. 
 
That being said I must point out that at Dallas we run Retro on a relatively quick 130 ft flat track with an eight tooth pinion rule. Group F running 2.8 laps on a high speed King may be a different story.
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#26 JimF

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 11:50 AM

Since the head of the (2?) org(s) mentioned above, doesn't have access to posting on Slotblog, if you really need some robust dialog on the subject, I suggest;
 
A) Pose your question on OWH, where he may spot it, and respond.
 
B) Join Facebook, where I'm sure he'll be happy to joust a bit, with you, on the subject.
 
C) Skip A and B, and go with the more painless option. Drive to Sears. Find their biggest Craftsman vice. Open the jaws all the way. Stick your head in. Turn the handle clockwise until you forget what your original question was.

 
(A-B) I have no use for robust dialog, jousting, or other forms of argument. Given the recent threads expressing issues with the motor I was wondering why such a thing was ever adopted for Retro in the first place. Still don't really see much reason there.
 
© I have no use for this comment either.


Jim Fowler

#27 Uncle Fred

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 11:54 AM

Better motor brushes.


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#28 Chris Barnes

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 12:06 PM

Evolution in Retro racing is the reason the Pro Slot FK motor is now around. At that time, the motors used were Falcons and Pro Slot Puppy Dogs.

During that time, one group complained about the Puppy Dog motors being too expensive to get a good one while the other side complained that the Falcon motor lost its brakes during the first race, rendering it to a one -ace motor. There was a large cost differences between the two, which caused a great concern among some racers and organizational leaders. During that period, there was an availability problem with Falcon motors. So new motors were evaluated for approval. JK submitted the Hawk Retro and Pro Slot submitted the FK. It was decided that the Pro Slot FK motor was not allowed and the JK Hawk Retro was approved. During this time, Puppy Dogs were still approved. The Puppy Dogs were allowed spring and brush changes - from the beginning of the IRRA®.
Only last year were the Puppy Dogs deemed illegal in the IRRA®. Also work was done on the JK Hawk Retro to make it more consistent, and appear to maintain better brakes for longer use.

In the major races of those organizations that use the PSFK motors, the problem with a push being needed is very minimal, a matter that hardly seems to come up. I don't know if there are set-up issues or track conditions that could cause a difference in performance/reliability.

On the other side of the coin, the Hawk Retro seems to make close racing - if all use the 7R7R motors. There have been stories (rumors) that some would buy 50 Hawk Retro motors to find that few that are at the top percent in speed. Not a lower cost! So maybe the hand-out racing will bring that back to cost effective racing

Jim, I hope this help answer your original question. The Pro Slot FK wasn't a concern when Retro racing was started. Also changing of brushes and springs was accepted in those motors that had the ability to change them


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#29 MSwiss

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 12:06 PM

Jim,

 

You specifically asked for why. I told you to where to go.

If your statement "but no feedback at all on the 'why' it was adopted in the first place," was meant to be rhetorical, I apologize.

 

Edit: It looks like Chris Barnes took a stab at your question, in the above post #28.


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#30 jimht

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 03:40 PM

The answer is simple; logically it's about choice.

 

Since there is a choice of usable motors, there are some who pick one over the other.

 

If there were only one decent motor available, almost everyone would like it and definitely everyone would use it.

 

All motors have flaws, no doubt. Having a choice means you get to pick the one with the flaws you like.

 

Then again, there are some folks with an axe to grind...and they definitely wouldn't adopt a motor that is approved by the IRRA.     :laugh2: 


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#31 Alan Dodson

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 06:38 PM

As one of the previously mentioned Dallas retro racers, and a long time slot racer that always enjoyed fiddling with motors, I like the fact that I can fiddle with the 4002FK motors, even if it's just brushes, springs and hood alignment. I also race a GTP class with Hawk 7 motors, and a spec chassis and body, and it doesn't seem like real slot racing without being able to tweak on the motor! I take it as a challenge that maybe I can squeeze a bit more out of a motor by getting the brushes aligned perfectly and applying the proper amount of spring tension. I have had no motor failures of any kind while racing these motors in the last year. And A.J., I was at the race you described and the "push, push" calls were much more frequent than usual. Many races have none at all. I guess this still doesn't answer the question as to why they were adopted, but it may explain why they are still being used.


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#32 Mark Wampler

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 07:44 PM

Ten years ago or so, the big motor war controversy was in full bloom here.   East Coast settled for the PS and its variants vs FK and its variants.  The West coast was polarized towards FK for the basic foundation that Paul Sterrett laid which was  the specific de-emphasis the motor. The FK style motor fit Paul’s doctrine.   D3 and the Retro Revolution began in SoCal, so this one single point is the basis for the success of Retro.  Entry level participation was affordable and thus brought in traditional and new beginners into Retro. Out of the 4 race classes that we run, 3 of them are either HR or H7.  Only the GTS class uses the Speed FX 16d.   FWIW


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#33 JimF

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:33 PM

The reason that I axed the question in the first place was that a few of our NorCal racers had suggested a motor change in one of our Retro classes. It happens that they the same ones that always want something to be different than it is. Nevertheless, we have new season coming up so I thought maybe I'd look into it. The PS-FK seemed like one of the few options out there that is at least different than what we already run. However, after reading all the kerfuffle on here and elsewhere about push starts, melting endbells and cutting brushes etc I wondered...........Geeeeze, why would anybody put themselves through all that? So........I thought maybe I'd axe.

 

Turns out that there doesn't seem to be a clear reason as to the why it was adopted in the first place but there a number of defenders who just like working on and fixing motors. However, we already have one Retro class with an open motor policy. I doesn't seem to me that we need another where even the "building around the seal" concept would get much traction.

 

I don't see much use for this motor but thanks to all for the mostly thoughtful replies.


Jim Fowler

#34 Mark Wampler

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:45 PM

I think there was a profound tinker culture that exited in  the 60's and 70's than exits today. Messing with motors was THE big focus. Today, the idea of simply buying a motor, fixing it into a frame and race is more appealing .  For the newcomer, a less complicated hobby will be a lot more attractive.


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#35 SlowBeas

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:55 PM

Jim, you ask a good question -- and I doubt there's really an easy answer.

 

But I wonder if some of us object to the HR and H7 just because, once we've used them for a few races, they go in the trash. You can't replace the brushes and keep using the thing until it finally throws a winding.

 

With the PS FK, you can replace brushes and springs, use Swiss' alignment tool for the hoods, and when it finally blows up, the can, magnets and end bell can be used with a different armature for just dinking around at the track. Not bad for the same price as the HR/H7.

 

That's my one cent, since I only used half my brain.

jb


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#36 Mark Wampler

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 01:10 PM

I don't know if you have noticed, but our whole consumer society has gone to use it and toss it.  I remember the local shoe repair shop.  Remember those?  You could get new heels and soles.   How about the TV repairman coming to your house to replace some tubes?  Even if you have kept a good car from the early 2000's and all of the sudden you have a chronic engine light.  You could spend $1,500 or more for a factory mechanic to make it go away and THEN you can have it smogged.   How many of us can work on our own cars these days?  If you buy a new car every 3 years, you're better off.  The 60's are gone forever. Just accept it !


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#37 Jason Holmes

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:14 PM

Jim

The 2 years we ran them in Can-am plus at the Brawl were Awesome at lest for me it made that race a great warm up for Retro Pro both cars have awesome brakes and on that King your could drive it deep in with no coast not the same as with the RH or any of the sealed can motors I like Brakes and with this motor you always have them for start to end

jason



#38 Samiam

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:32 PM

Jim, you ask a good question -- and I doubt there's really an easy answer.

 

But I wonder if some of us object to the HR and H7 just because, once we've used them for a few races, they go in the trash. You can't replace the brushes and keep using the thing until it finally throws a winding.

 

With the PS FK, you can replace brushes and springs, use Swiss' alignment tool for the hoods, and when it finally blows up, the can, magnets and end bell can be used with a different armature for just dinking around at the track. Not bad for the same price as the HR/H7.

 

That's my one cent, since I only used half my brain.

jb

I agree with Jim.

 

That makes two cents.


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#39 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 08:35 PM

The RetroHawk is, indeed, rebuildable for dinking around the track.  Slightly more difficult that the 4002, but easily doable by the industrious tinkerer.  For those who may not recall (or been aware), when the original Falcon came into wide use it was quite the laugh to pry the end off and install a 12 arm and a slightly modified endbell.  I have several examples with various arms.

 

I think it would be instructive to ascertain the gear ratios used when and where the documented problems occur.  My local scene employed the 4002 in a fairly heavy car with 48-pitch drive components and 1/8" axles.  Gearing was generally as low (numerically) as possible.  9/26 and 10/27 or 28 being the most common.  They ran hot-hot-hot.  A critical factor, methinks.


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#40 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 08:56 PM


I remember Tracy Brown had a big retro race fairly recently where he allowed both the PS and the JK motors. I think almost everyone wound up choosing the ProSlot. Im sure somebody can find the story. I think it was called Retro World Championships.

#41 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 09:32 PM

Here it is.

http://slotblog.net/...sults-415-1716/


So is the speed all Pro Slot or is it a mix with RH?

Pro Slot.

quote name="Eddie Fleming" post="636448" timestamp="1460760083"]
I would have been surprised had it been otherwise.
 
So much for that crap about both being competitive.
 
Yall have fun now.[/quote]

#42 Gator Bob

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 11:07 AM

I don't know if you have noticed, but our whole consumer society has gone to use it and toss it.  I remember the local shoe repair shop.  Remember those?  You could get new heels and soles.   How about the TV repairman coming to your house to replace some tubes?  Even if you have kept a good car from the early 2000's and all of the sudden you have a chronic engine light.  You could spend $1,500 or more for a factory mechanic to make it go away and THEN you can have it smogged.   How many of us can work on our own cars these days?  If you buy a new car every 3 years, you're better off.  The 60's are gone forever. Just accept it !

 

I've noticed but always thought planned obsolescence sucks.

 

I work on my own cars....

 

If you buy a new car every three years .... They are better off even if you think you are.

 

The 60s are not gone forever, they will be back in 43 years ... LOL

 

 

There is a fundamental ethical question involved in designing a death-date into products that goes beyond that of informing consumers. It is about the social responsibility of creating products that have short lives and therefore increase the burden on the planet.

  

Is planned obsolescence socially responsible?


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