41 replies to this topic

[JimF]

Since the head of the (2?) org(s) mentioned above, doesn't have access to posting on Slotblog, if you really need some robust dialog on the subject, I suggest;
 
A) Pose your question on OWH, where he may spot it, and respond.
 
B) Join Facebook, where I'm sure he'll be happy to joust a bit, with you, on the subject.
 
C) Skip A and B, and go with the more painless option. Drive to Sears. Find their biggest Craftsman vice. Open the jaws all the way. Stick your head in. Turn the handle clockwise until you forget what your original question was.

 
(A-B) I have no use for robust dialog, jousting, or other forms of argument. Given the recent threads expressing issues with the motor I was wondering why such a thing was ever adopted for Retro in the first place. Still don't really see much reason there.
 
© I have no use for this comment either.

[Uncle Fred]

Better motor brushes.

[Chris Barnes]

Evolution in Retro racing is the reason the Pro Slot FK motor is now around. At that time, the motors used were Falcons and Pro Slot Puppy Dogs.

During that time, one group complained about the Puppy Dog motors being too expensive to get a good one while the other side complained that the Falcon motor lost its brakes during the first race, rendering it to a one -ace motor. There was a large cost differences between the two, which caused a great concern among some racers and organizational leaders. During that period, there was an availability problem with Falcon motors. So new motors were evaluated for approval. JK submitted the Hawk Retro and Pro Slot submitted the FK. It was decided that the Pro Slot FK motor was not allowed and the JK Hawk Retro was approved. During this time, Puppy Dogs were still approved. The Puppy Dogs were allowed spring and brush changes - from the beginning of the IRRA^®.
Only last year were the Puppy Dogs deemed illegal in the IRRA^®. Also work was done on the JK Hawk Retro to make it more consistent, and appear to maintain better brakes for longer use.

In the major races of those organizations that use the PSFK motors, the problem with a push being needed is very minimal, a matter that hardly seems to come up. I don't know if there are set-up issues or track conditions that could cause a difference in performance/reliability.

On the other side of the coin, the Hawk Retro seems to make close racing - if all use the 7R7R motors. There have been stories (rumors) that some would buy 50 Hawk Retro motors to find that few that are at the top percent in speed. Not a lower cost! So maybe the hand-out racing will bring that back to cost effective racing

Jim, I hope this help answer your original question. The Pro Slot FK wasn't a concern when Retro racing was started. Also changing of brushes and springs was accepted in those motors that had the ability to change them

[MSwiss]

Jim,

 

You specifically asked for why. I told you to where to go.

If your statement "but no feedback at all on the 'why' it was adopted in the first place," was meant to be rhetorical, I apologize.

 

Edit: It looks like Chris Barnes took a stab at your question, in the above post #28.

[jimht]

The answer is simple; logically it's about choice.

 

Since there is a choice of usable motors, there are some who pick one over the other.

 

If there were only one decent motor available, almost everyone would like it and definitely everyone would use it.

 

All motors have flaws, no doubt. Having a choice means you get to pick the one with the flaws you like.

 

Then again, there are some folks with an axe to grind...and they definitely wouldn't adopt a motor that is approved by the IRRA.      

[Alan Dodson]

As one of the previously mentioned Dallas retro racers, and a long time slot racer that always enjoyed fiddling with motors, I like the fact that I can fiddle with the 4002FK motors, even if it's just brushes, springs and hood alignment. I also race a GTP class with Hawk 7 motors, and a spec chassis and body, and it doesn't seem like real slot racing without being able to tweak on the motor! I take it as a challenge that maybe I can squeeze a bit more out of a motor by getting the brushes aligned perfectly and applying the proper amount of spring tension. I have had no motor failures of any kind while racing these motors in the last year. And A.J., I was at the race you described and the "push, push" calls were much more frequent than usual. Many races have none at all. I guess this still doesn't answer the question as to why they were adopted, but it may explain why they are still being used.

[Mark Wampler]

Ten years ago or so, the big motor war controversy was in full bloom here.   East Coast settled for the PS and its variants vs FK and its variants.  The West coast was polarized towards FK for the basic foundation that Paul Sterrett laid which was  the specific de-emphasis the motor. The FK style motor fit Paul’s doctrine.   D3 and the Retro Revolution began in SoCal, so this one single point is the basis for the success of Retro.  Entry level participation was affordable and thus brought in traditional and new beginners into Retro. Out of the 4 race classes that we run, 3 of them are either HR or H7.  Only the GTS class uses the Speed FX 16d.   FWIW

[JimF]

The reason that I axed the question in the first place was that a few of our NorCal racers had suggested a motor change in one of our Retro classes. It happens that they the same ones that always want something to be different than it is. Nevertheless, we have new season coming up so I thought maybe I'd look into it. The PS-FK seemed like one of the few options out there that is at least different than what we already run. However, after reading all the kerfuffle on here and elsewhere about push starts, melting endbells and cutting brushes etc I wondered...........Geeeeze, why would anybody put themselves through all that? So........I thought maybe I'd axe.

 

Turns out that there doesn't seem to be a clear reason as to the why it was adopted in the first place but there a number of defenders who just like working on and fixing motors. However, we already have one Retro class with an open motor policy. I doesn't seem to me that we need another where even the "building around the seal" concept would get much traction.

 

I don't see much use for this motor but thanks to all for the mostly thoughtful replies.

[Mark Wampler]

I think there was a profound tinker culture that exited in  the 60's and 70's than exits today. Messing with motors was THE big focus. Today, the idea of simply buying a motor, fixing it into a frame and race is more appealing .  For the newcomer, a less complicated hobby will be a lot more attractive.

[SlowBeas]

Jim, you ask a good question -- and I doubt there's really an easy answer.

 

But I wonder if some of us object to the HR and H7 just because, once we've used them for a few races, they go in the trash. You can't replace the brushes and keep using the thing until it finally throws a winding.

 

With the PS FK, you can replace brushes and springs, use Swiss' alignment tool for the hoods, and when it finally blows up, the can, magnets and end bell can be used with a different armature for just dinking around at the track. Not bad for the same price as the HR/H7.

 

That's my one cent, since I only used half my brain.

jb

[Mark Wampler]

I don't know if you have noticed, but our whole consumer society has gone to use it and toss it.  I remember the local shoe repair shop.  Remember those?  You could get new heels and soles.   How about the TV repairman coming to your house to replace some tubes?  Even if you have kept a good car from the early 2000's and all of the sudden you have a chronic engine light.  You could spend $1,500 or more for a factory mechanic to make it go away and THEN you can have it smogged.   How many of us can work on our own cars these days?  If you buy a new car every 3 years, you're better off.  The 60's are gone forever. Just accept it !

[Jason Holmes]

Jim

The 2 years we ran them in Can-am plus at the Brawl were Awesome at lest for me it made that race a great warm up for Retro Pro both cars have awesome brakes and on that King your could drive it deep in with no coast not the same as with the RH or any of the sealed can motors I like Brakes and with this motor you always have them for start to end

jason

[Samiam]

Jim, you ask a good question -- and I doubt there's really an easy answer.

 

But I wonder if some of us object to the HR and H7 just because, once we've used them for a few races, they go in the trash. You can't replace the brushes and keep using the thing until it finally throws a winding.

 

With the PS FK, you can replace brushes and springs, use Swiss' alignment tool for the hoods, and when it finally blows up, the can, magnets and end bell can be used with a different armature for just dinking around at the track. Not bad for the same price as the HR/H7.

 

That's my one cent, since I only used half my brain.

jb

I agree with Jim.

 

That makes two cents.

[Arne Saknussem]

The RetroHawk is, indeed, rebuildable for dinking around the track.  Slightly more difficult that the 4002, but easily doable by the industrious tinkerer.  For those who may not recall (or been aware), when the original Falcon came into wide use it was quite the laugh to pry the end off and install a 12 arm and a slightly modified endbell.  I have several examples with various arms.

 

I think it would be instructive to ascertain the gear ratios used when and where the documented problems occur.  My local scene employed the 4002 in a fairly heavy car with 48-pitch drive components and 1/8" axles.  Gearing was generally as low (numerically) as possible.  9/26 and 10/27 or 28 being the most common.  They ran hot-hot-hot.  A critical factor, methinks.

[Kevin Donovan]

I remember Tracy Brown had a big retro race fairly recently where he allowed both the PS and the JK motors. I think almost everyone wound up choosing the ProSlot. Im sure somebody can find the story. I think it was called Retro World Championships.

[Kevin Donovan]

Here it is.

http://slotblog.net/...sults-415-1716/


So is the speed all Pro Slot or is it a mix with RH?

Pro Slot.

quote name="Eddie Fleming" post="636448" timestamp="1460760083"]
I would have been surprised had it been otherwise.
 
So much for that crap about both being competitive.
 
Yall have fun now.[/quote]

[Gator Bob]

I don't know if you have noticed, but our whole consumer society has gone to use it and toss it.  I remember the local shoe repair shop.  Remember those?  You could get new heels and soles.   How about the TV repairman coming to your house to replace some tubes?  Even if you have kept a good car from the early 2000's and all of the sudden you have a chronic engine light.  You could spend $1,500 or more for a factory mechanic to make it go away and THEN you can have it smogged.   How many of us can work on our own cars these days?  If you buy a new car every 3 years, you're better off.  The 60's are gone forever. Just accept it !

 

I've noticed but always thought planned obsolescence sucks.

 

I work on my own cars....

 

If you buy a new car every three years .... They are better off even if you think you are.

 

The 60s are not gone forever, they will be back in 43 years ... LOL

 

 

There is a fundamental ethical question involved in designing a death-date into products that goes beyond that of informing consumers. It is about the social responsibility of creating products that have short lives and therefore increase the burden on the planet.

  

Is planned obsolescence socially responsible?