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Sealed Group 12?


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#1 gatormark

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 05:08 AM

Is there a sealed gr 12 motor out there like the hawk 7? We have been talking gr 12 racing but I don't care to get into the who spends more crap that this type of racing brings. If not,what is the best deal on gr 12 motors ie bang for the buck? pro slot,koford?
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#2 gmpower

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 06:33 AM

Proslot 3000S sealed GR12 $34.00 not sure how available they are.
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#3 Racer36

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:03 AM

Eagle shows the 3000S in stock. Have your raceway check it out.


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#4 MSwiss

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:53 AM

The 3000S is a C can motor with a Chinese arm.(larger than a Hawk 7)

IMO, you would be better off using the 4012FK, which a minimotor with neo magnets and an American arm.

It is not sealed.

Possibly your raceway could contact Proslot direct, and purchase sealed versions.

But you are sort of defeating the purpose of using a motor with a large diameter, American arm, if you can't get at it, to retrue it.

Maybe you can work something out with them, to reseal them, during a rebalance of the arm/refurb.
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Mike Swiss
 
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#5 Markomatic

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:07 AM

How many sealed motors do you have to buy to get a good one? I have been racing a class that uses sealed motors but I have bought 5 at $13.00 a pop to find one competitive. That one will go flat in a few months worth of racing and you are off on the cycle to find another good one. Having one that you can rebuild with an American arm is more up front cost but it can last way longer with rebuilds and is usually more consistent.


Mark Miller

#6 jimht

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:40 AM

5 at $13 a pop to get one that lasts a few months... :laugh2: 


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#7 MSwiss

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 12:19 PM

The American arm thing ultimately didn't work out real well, for the IRRA®.

 

Guys with deep pockets, wound up with 50+, $50 motors.

 

You almost got to think, they wouldn't have the time, to put pinions on, 160 or 170, $13-$15  motors. LOL


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#8 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 05:48 PM

No sense racing sealed 12's. The guys that know how to rebuild them without removing the seal will have a huge advantage.

Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

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#9 Zippity

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 06:49 PM

A "sealed" anything motor is an oxymoron :(



#10 Samiam

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 06:53 PM

Mark,

 

Are you guys more inclined towards sealed motors or Gp-12? And are you talking Wing Car?

 

If it's sealed motors, go with the PS 4002FK. If it's Gp-12 speed, then you guys are going to have to bite the bullet and pony up for C-can motor programs. 


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#11 Gator Bob

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:31 PM

How many sealed motors do you have to buy to get a good one?

 

The $64,000 question ... 13 bucks at a time.

Do the math .... :laugh2:

 

I think you are being optimistic on getting months of use. 3 to 6v rated FK motors won't live long at 12-14 volts.

 

Of course a tape sealed (tamper evident) version from ProSlot wouldn't be that big of a deal.

A crimp sealed (tamperproof) Mabuchi style FK wound in 29 wire would take a quantity commitment and probably exasperate the current inconsistency and lifespan situation.  

 

Right?  :clapping:


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#12 Markomatic

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:00 PM

I race two or three times a month so they can make a month or two. My first motor was good then wore out. Took 6 motors to not be last. Funny how you can race all 8 lanes, not come off and be last


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Mark Miller

#13 Gator Bob

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:33 PM

Don't know ...

I just come off a lot and finish last. This saves me money on motors.

 

Wanna race? :laugh2:


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#14 gatormark

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 02:26 PM

Yes we are wing racing on a 200 ft kingleman
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#15 Tim Neja

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 03:37 PM

How many sealed motors do you have to buy to get a good one? I have been racing a class that uses sealed motors but I have bought 5 at $13.00 a pop to find one competitive. That one will go flat in a few months worth of racing and you are off on the cycle to find another good one. Having one that you can rebuild with an American arm is more up front cost but it can last way longer with rebuilds and is usually more consistent.

See--there is the "assumption" that is completely wrong!! Even with a motor that is "rebuildable"-- you still have to buy 5 to get ONE good one!! OR--- stuff a bunch of arms through a good setup to find that fast motor!! It's that same either way--about %20 of your motors will truly be fast enough to win races with---no matter if you start with sealed motors--or motors you can rebuild!! 


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#16 Markomatic

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 07:52 PM

That has not been my experience. Once you get a good setup on a rebuildable motor it will last almost indefinitely. The good arm can be refurbished many times before the com is worn out. I find armatures are more consistent today. With a sealed motor not only do you have to buy many to get a good one but when that good one is worn out it is done. It may have a good arm but you can't do anything with it. My experience with sealed motors have been with mini Brutes so you can't even replace brushes when worn out. 


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#17 Zippity

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 08:15 PM

Sealed motors can still be comm trued.



#18 havlicek

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 06:47 AM

 

Markomatic, on 13 Oct 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

snapback.png

How many sealed motors do you have to buy to get a good one? I have been racing a class that uses sealed motors but I have bought 5 at $13.00 a pop to find one competitive. That one will go flat in a few months worth of racing and you are off on the cycle to find another good one. Having one that you can rebuild with an American arm is more up front cost but it can last way longer with rebuilds and is usually more consistent.

See--there is the "assumption" that is completely wrong!! Even with a motor that is "rebuildable"-- you still have to buy 5 to get ONE good one!! OR--- stuff a bunch of arms through a good setup to find that fast motor!! It's that same either way--about %20 of your motors will truly be fast enough to win races with---no matter if you start with sealed motors--or motors you can rebuild!! 


There's some truth on both sides here.  Both sealed and rebuildable motors can have cost and performance benefits, because there's more to what makes any motor fast than just one aspect, even if it's a MAJOR one like the armature...and even with *just* the armature, there's luck and variability playing roles in the "equation".  It's not like you can even test just the armatures and be 100% certain of finding a good one until you actually put it in a car and run it.

 

 

 

Sealed motors can still be comm trued.

No they can't, at least in any way that would likely be any good...but please elaborate.  Making such a statement without details carries no weight.


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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 07:13 AM

I've never seen one done in person, but you can true the comm on a sealed motor, and in theory, quite well, if the motor has the shaft coming out of both sides of the motor.

IIRC, a commercial one was sold, expressly for that purpose.

You remove the hardware on one side, and spin the motor in "V's".

 

You obviously have to figure out how to spin the arm, while keeping the set-up from rotating.

A specially designed cutting tool, also facilitates, it getting done.


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#20 Bill from NH

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 08:11 AM

There used to be a drag racing site on the net with a simple name, such as John's Drag Racing or something similar, where the owner was a machinest. This site had photos of several tools the guy made to facilitate his drag racing. One of the more unique ones was a fixture that held sealed Deathstars while truing their comms. This site disappeared about 5 years ago, but I believe the guy was somewhere in the Midwest. When time permits, I'll see if I kept any paper copy photos of this site.


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#21 Danny Zona

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 11:10 AM

There used to be a drag racing site on the net with a simple name, such as John's Drag Racing or something similar, where the owner was a machinest. This site had photos of several tools the guy made to facilitate his drag racing. One of the more unique ones was a fixture that held sealed Deathstars while truing their comms. This site disappeared about 5 years ago, but I believe the guy was somewhere in the Midwest. When time permits, I'll see if I kept any paper copy photos of this site.

I've seen a racer convert a RC com lathe over that would true the com on sealed deathstar motors.

That was a long time ago though.
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#22 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 11:27 AM

BudLjli.jpg
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Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta


#23 MSwiss

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:17 PM

Sealed motors can still be comm trued.

  

BudLjli.jpg

No cat has been let out of the bag.

The subject has been dicussed, at least once, here, before.

And a picture of an actual rig, was posted, IIRC, by Zippity, or possibly, by one of the other N.Z. guys.

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#24 havlicek

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 05:09 PM

Until I see it being done and can critique the process, it ain't happenin'. 


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#25 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 05:24 PM

There are plenty of good Group 12 motors available.
C-Cans and Mini Motors both.

If you want to run 12’s just run what they’re going to race at the NATS at Tracy Brown’s.
I’m sure he can point you in the right direction.

#26 Zippity

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 05:28 PM

Until I see it being done and can critique the process, it ain't happenin'. 

 

I say that about Religion  :)



#27 havlicek

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 05:39 AM

 

I say that about Religion  :)

 

 

...a non-answer partially disguised as "humor"...tranlsation: "I haven't got a clue about all this".  :)  I'll just say this, any shaft runout (*and you can bet that most all of these have a considerable amount) will be at it's most towards the ends of the shaft, the same ends that would be used to support the arm/motor here.  On the cutter being used, I'm guessing that it's around the same size as a brush.  Considering how sloppy the hardware is on these motors, I don't think much needs to be said about that.

I have no doubt that people do this and/or pay for others to do it.  I have no doubt that people do all sorts of things that aren't allowed.  I have no doubt that people buy dozens of motors at a clip looking for a "cherry".  I have no doubt that people buy those BS motors on eBay or wherever that cost a premium because they've been sprinkled with fairy dust.  People do all sorts of dumb things.


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#28 MSwiss

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 06:58 AM

I'm not sure what the hardware has to do with truing the comm.

Mike Swiss
 
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#29 havlicek

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 07:29 AM

I'm not sure what the hardware has to do with truing the comm.

 

Well, I'm guessing that there's a cutter slightly smaller than the hardware that fits in there (*maybe that's not the case).  If so, it has to be an "easy slide fit".  Normally you don't just true the exact brush track, but if this is all so, that would seem to be the case here.  That being said, there's more than even money that the edges of the brushes will be riding on untrued com surface.  Again though Mike, I'd have to see the process to assess what's going on.  Even if whoever has worked out everything *somehow* so that it's actually doing a good job of truing the com..."but is against the rules"...it's still dumb to be cheating at slot car racing.  Anyway, I'm unconvinced.


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#30 Bill from NH

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 07:31 AM

The drag racer who has the tool website removed one side of the brush hardware to cut the whole comm. The only thing I ever saw to stick down a brush tube were the Trinity rubber polishing sticks. I never tried one because we ran mostly "built" 16Ds.


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#31 MSwiss

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 07:33 AM

Well, I'm guessing that there's a cutter slightly smaller than the hardware that fits in there (*maybe that's not the case).  If so, it has to be an "easy slide fit".  Normally you don't just true the exact brush track, but if this is all so, that would seem to be the case here.  That being said, there's more than even money that the edges of the brushes will be riding on untrued com surface.  Again though Mike, I'd have to see the process to assess what's going on.  Even if whoever has worked out everything *somehow* so that it's actually doing a good job of truing the com..."but is against the rules"...it's still dumb to be cheating at slot car racing.  Anyway, I'm unconvinced.


I thought it was obvious, that when racers do this, they remove the hardware from one side of the endbell.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#32 havlicek

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 10:02 AM

I thought it was obvious, that when racers do this, they remove the hardware from one side of the endbell.

I thought that was against the rules as well?


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#33 MSwiss

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 10:20 AM

I've sold 200-300, 4002FK alignment jigs, so guys are certainly loosening their screws, and aligning the hoods.

 

I'd only consider it cheating, if they are trimming the plastic nubs off, and/or, advancing the timing.

 

As far as truing the comm, unless the rules specifically say you can, it would be cheating.

 

That won't stop the racers that prescribe to the theory, "It's only cheating, if you get caught".


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#34 havlicek

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 11:54 AM

...and here I thought this was about some way of truing the com without breaking the rules.  My bad, I was trying to envision something that (apparently?) isn't being done.

 


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#35 Bill from NH

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 01:21 PM

Drag racing motor rules vary all over the country. They aren't necessarily universal like D3 & IRRA  motor rules. What you think of as being illegal in one area may be legal in another. If the tools I saw were illegal to use where their owner raced, I doubt he would have posted photos of them on the net for world to see. 


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#36 Zippity

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 01:35 PM

commincan.jpg


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#37 NY Nick

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 03:10 PM

Where there is a will there is a way.


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#38 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 03:28 PM

 

Looks like that'll work.


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Posted Image
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#39 havlicek

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 04:16 PM

Yeah, if truing the com and nothing else matters except leaving some of the seal on there, that's not a difficult thing!


John Havlicek

#40 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 05:16 PM

Drag racing motor rules vary all over the country. They aren't necessarily universal like D3 & IRRA  motor rules. What you think of as being illegal in one area may be legal in another. If the tools I saw were illegal to use where their owner raced, I doubt he would have posted photos of them on the net for world to see. 

Yep...I got that, but I make a lot of arms for the minican motors that I know aren't going into drag cars, so I have to believe there are lots of other things people can use these for besides drags.  I do get requests to cheat, sometimes asked in a way that's not so obvious, but I turn that stuff off right away.  


John Havlicek





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