24 replies to this topic

[don.siegel]

Remember this one?





Yep, the UHP Toronado, with the reversed AMT chassis for front-wheel drive, swing arm, JoHan Toronado body (I believe), and of course the limited slip differential. Now, I never really understood what they meant, until this evening, as I was preparing one of these babies to take to Bordo with me... I was going to replace the wheels/tires to something silicone, and the front drive wheels seemed a little weird, but I went ahead and unscrewed the knockoff, and... sproing, a spring jumped out, and I discovered what they meant by limited slip differential!





I hope you can see the parts here. The metal disc closest to the chassis is threaded, then there's the black rubber disc on the wheel, which is sleeved and unthreaded. Then the strong spring, washer, and knockoff. You tighten the whole thing together and I guess the idea is that in tight corners, the wheel will slip a bit on its sleeve for smoother cornering... Right!

Anyway, I probably won't enter this one, since I didn't have time to detail it, and I kind of like it like that, but I will find out how it runs. Put slip-on silicones both front and rear. The original had sponge on the front, and supposedly silicone on the rear, but mine were more like dried out regular rubber...

Anyway, we shall see!

Don

PS: as in most RTR cars, axles were misaligned and the guide barely entered the slot! Seems like this would have been an easy fix, especially for the guide, but this fault was pretty common!

[Hworth08]

I got one of those three or four years ago on eBay, mixed in with some other cars, less the body. I had no idea what it was but it is a pretty slick idea!

No clue if mine was correct but it used what would normally be the the original AMT rear tires for the rear tires and had sponge tires on the limited slip front end.

The AMT tires had no grip and the rear end would spin out in a flash. The rear end will need some HIGH grip tires and probably some weight.

I never got the limited slip adjusted so it would slip without the spinner coming loose. Still, a good car to play with and no doubt different!

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Terrible thing to do to a respectable AMT!

In the day, '65, the tracks were often quite slippery. The AMT sponges didn't respond to the cancer-causing chemicals that the other sponge I used in the day (Mille Miglia and Veco), and were the first ones I siliconed!

Fate

[TSR]

I drove one of these piles once and that was enough for me to write:

UHP

One of the strangest pair of slot racing cars ever devised came from this company. They contracted with AMT for the supply of fully-assembled chassis (minus front wheels) from the later series, and turned them around for front wheel-drive operation. Fitting their own front wheels and tires with built-in "differential" (a fancy name for a coil spring and two friction washers), they added a wire drop arm, and... voila. They were fitted with either Jo-Han's Olds Toronado or a factory-painted Lancer Mako Shark body, mounted on aluminum channel brackets. No use to tell you, front wheel-driven slot cars are hopeless, as cars wander without ever finding a proper stance. This company was doomed from the very beginning and did not last long.

PS: as in most RTR cars, axles were misaligned and the guide barely entered the slot! Seems like this would have been an easy fix, especially for the guide, but this fault was pretty common!

Guess what, this has not changed. Look at any Carrera and most other plastic-chassis cars, with guides or guide holders so poorly designed that the blades barely penetrate the slot. One has to wonder at the level of stupidity in the mind of the certified cretins that call themselves "engineers".

[JimR]

Are the sloppy tolerances designed in to make assembly easier/quicker?

Still wouldn't explain the shallow guides, though.

[TSR]

The sloppy tolerances are in the brain neurones of the so-called design engineers.

[don.siegel]

Leave us not be too intolerant - the axles were misaligned, but they were also a bit rusty and the car hadn't turned a wheel in anger in at least 40 years, maybe never! I'm not sure it was any better at the time, but there is a little leeway there...

On the other hand, the guide thing really surprised me - but I guess it shouldn't because so many cars were and are like that! I think a stable guide and round tires would have fixed about 90% of all the problems that kids like us had when we assembled our first kit car!

Anyway, I'll try it out and submit a driver's report. My main car is an MPC GTO with the sidewinder DynOCharger and the idler gear - not sure how well that one will work either!

Don

[TSR]

I think a stable guide and round tires would have fixed about 90% of all the problems that kids like us had when we assembled our first kit car!

Don, please mail this thread's link and your comments to the R&D depts at Scalextric, Carrera, Fly, and all the other mickey-mouse engineering companies. They need it!

[don.siegel]

Just wanted to give you a little follow-up on the UHP Toronado.

As planned, I ran my MPC GTO, which ran decently: 15th out of 40 in the race. Speed up with most of the cars (except some of the 26D powered ones), but cornering pretty mediocre.

But I did run the UHP: with Riggen silicones on the front and non-turned modern silicones on the rear it was almost undrivable, but as soon as I put some other Riggen silicones on the back, it actually ran very well, and was enjoyable to drive! I was almost tempted to enter it in the race in fact...

As one of the local guys who has experience with FWD cars warned me, it slips a lot on acceleration, but can be pushed fairly hard in the corners, especially if you can let the rear hang out a bit. I let my friend try it and he thought it stacked up well against the other production slot racers of the time. It does in fact take a fairly different driving style, so that also discouraged me from racing it (not to mention those very expensive Jo-Han bodies!).

But all in all a very nice surprise. And no, I'm not sure what effect the limited slip differential had if any, unless that was part of the slippage on acceleration. I'll try to test it on another track and see what happens.

These Riggen silicones are usually not very good compared to other period models, but they seem to work fairly well on heavy cars, since they're round without trimming and can get by without being glued... Not sure what would have happened with the original sponge and glue either.

Don

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Don, the Riggen sillies are hard. But there are two compounds that I have seen. The red stripe is softer than the blue.

In the day, I was running on a lot of different tracks. A lot of tracks wouldn't allow anything on the tire or the track and that left one with silicone. And when running silicone, the best were some very gummy nastys that a guy in utah was making for himeself. Next to those, i preferred the candies despite the nylon hubs, the twin K and the "moldies".

But, there was this one american black track in Kinston North Carolina in a bowling alley that had the odd characteristic that nothing worked! My local track owner in Goldsboro decided to have a team of "hot shots" and go around to other tracks in his van and challenge the locals in their "big" races. We usually did well, but the kinston track drove eveyone crazy. Then I remembered, being apack rat, this set of stock monogram rubber glued and trued on some rims in the box, threw them on my car with softest motor, and won. The rest of the team was in the basement.

Very strange. The team leader was furious.

Fate

[Horsepower]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the tires with the red and blue stripe sidewalls were K&B.

[don.siegel]

I think you're right on that Gary, for the red & blue stripes.

It's very possible that Riggen made soft and hard versions (since most other manufacturers did too), but I think I've only seen the hard ones.

Keep those stories coming Rocky! I wonder why nothing - except Monogram rubber - worked on the American Black? Did they use a special paint, or was it leftover moo or ...?

Don

[TSR]

Riggen's "Silicone" tires had very little silicone in them. They were mostly natural rubber and there was only one grade, unlike the three grades of pure silicone offered by Cox with their famous Sil-Slicks (best-looking slot car tires/wheels combo ever?)

The only way I can think of making the silly UHP cars to make laps would be to use tires with less mechanical grip at the rear. Or attach a trailer to the car!
As they come from their packaging, they are virtually undriveable.

[don.siegel]

That was one of the keys Philippe - replacing the modern silicones, which had way too much grip (and even worse, were out of round), with the Riggens, which are just about right for a heavy car on this track which has been resurfaced using polyurethane paint. I think something like candies or soft AJ's on the front might be the ideal combo, but then I'd have to change out those wonderful limited slip differential wheels...

And yes, the Cox sil-sliks are beautiful, but they're also rather useless, based on ones I've tried... BuzCo also made a handsome set of silicones, with full sidewall detail, and they are a bit more effective than the Riggen's, but not as good as...

Candies! or soft AJ's, still working perfectly, 40 years later....

Actually, what you say about the UHP could apply to most kit and RTR cars of the time: how many of them didn't need a change of tires to work decently on a normal wood track?

Don

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

You could be right about the K&B. I have a lot of tires, and I know some are riggen that survived because I didn't use them and sillies of the day don't wear.

In retrospect, I THINK the reason they werked was that the monograms were narrow! The track was a little dirty and they didn't allow cleaning. The old American surface was often had little bumps all over painted matt black and that surface would attract dirt. If I remember the race correctly, what happened is that I had a huge lead by half way then the track started cleaning up and the other tires came in. But it was too late. I think the narrow tires both cut the dirt, didn't load up like sillies do. People were all over the place and most of the "racing" was dodging.

Goldsboro NC was a small town that bragged that it was a sister city to Selma! The raceway was Huge, a 155' "roadcourse" custom with no straight longer than 20', a flat 80' figure 8, a 220' figure 8 with 80degree banks and full dual direction drag strip. The owner was a NUT. I am pretty certain it didn't make money, but he was very wealthy and didn't care. It was one of his unused tobacco wharehouses, so it had that sickly sweet smell uncured tobacco has. And huge valted ceilings.

We also had a 70' road course on Base, and at least 6 other raceways no further than 20 miles away. I am afraid that as a military brat, I was an outsider everywhere but at the track, but I didn't keep in touch with anyone there when I left in '65. I was being mentored long distance by Jim Russel and Pete Hagenbach. Most of my cars then looked like Petes and the other Rockford guys. And I think they gave me a real advantage. Virtually all the cars I ran against were modified kit cars. I don't remember any other builders in the area. Big advantage.

Fate

[TSR]

You could be right about the K&B. I have a lot of tires, and I know some are riggen that survived because I didn't use them and sillies of the day don't wear.

Rocky,
The red or blue striped tires (silicone or foam) are K&B. Riggen had some sponge tires with a white stripe or other white markings that they sold to BZ and C&S Distributing.
I cannot think of any other makes that had striped tires at the time.

Don, the Cox Sil-Sliks were very efficient when NEW. They did not age well, unlike the Twinn-K's or Candies that remain the best today.

[mdiv]

I like International Engineering and Kal-Kar.

Ram Engineering too!

My favorite Engineering company would be MAD123 Engineering

Mikey

[sportblazer350]

Even today, i still use Candies, and they work well on plastic Carrera track with all of my 36d powered vintage cars, good on a clean wood track too. I use the Buzco foam/Silicones on a Cox Cheetah, and they are ok. The K&B sillies i have are sorta harder in compound, and i have a few various sillies by off brand companies (not Candies, AJ's, or Cox,etc) and they work good too.

For all of the various types of 1/24 vintage cars i run and/or race, my favorite comes down to: a 36d powered car with a 1965 era chassis and Candies Gum silicones in the rear! Right now i race a Chaparral with a gold Garvic sidewinder chassis, and the Candies Gum silicones, Garvic 36d motor, glued the drop arm in place, and it races great! No, it may not be the best handling 36d car in our club, nor the fastest, but i really enjoy racing that car on the Red Lightning. And- with my old faithful MRC budget controller!! Everything vintage, even the braids!! Now THAT'S racin'!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Joe Mig]

Philippe; Can you tell me what this car is worth mint in the box?
I have a chance to buy one but I would not want to over pay.

[TSR]

Joe, which car?

[don.siegel]

Joe,

I assume you mean the UHP Toronado... I paid about $200 for mine almost 10 years ago, in the early days of ebay, and I think it's still worth about the same today, if new and in very good condition, but without the box. Absolutely MIB you might add another $100, or $50 if just the box.

I don't have specific examples, but saw one of these go through not long ago and remember thinking that it finished at about the same price I paid for mine awhile ago...

Philippe, what do you think? Anybody else can chime in too...

Don

[don.siegel]

And here's the beast, since I reorganized Photobucket and the photos disappeared...

[TSR]

Don,
You are right on. 10-15 years ago thay were deemed rare, but the Internet has opened the door to a lot of discoveries and a substantial reduction in prices for the more common stuff.

[Joe Mig]

Thanks guys.

[Gary Bluestone]

I had a request from a member to post photo's of the UHP -  FWD parts as they are assembled, so here they are. The wheels are freewheeling on 1/8" brass tubing .430" long. Outer washer is .175 ID .375 OD. The rubber disk is .030 thick, .175 ID ,9/16 OD. Although I rebuilt these  about 10 years ago, I find the rubber disks are disintegrated and so now I will try to conjure up replacements  either with gasket material or cut some closed cell foam from tire making material. I believe the disks are crucial to good performance. As for the overall performance of these chassis, the only real question is how well they will compete against a standard AMT hardbody car. Wheels are unique in that they have a protrusion on which the spring locates and are drilled oversize to allow the brass tube inside.