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Retro Hawk motor issues


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#1 raisin27

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 12:30 PM

Deleted at the request of Raisin.


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Michael Garrett

 

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#2 Butters37

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 12:42 PM

From a track owner I was told the ones in the blister packs have been bad lately.

If you find a good one send it my way. The only good ones I have are handouts from the rR4 last year. The last 15 I bought... paperweights in comparison. It's not even close.


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#3 JK Products

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 12:52 PM

Hi Michael,

 

Do you still have the 10 motors? I'd like to evaluate them.

 

Tim


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#4 raisin27

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 01:04 PM

Yes, I still have them.


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#5 Cap Henry

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 01:52 PM

I just broke in five new ones last week, and all were ran within a tenth of the track record on my King.

One did blow a segment of the comm within five laps, but they were all broke in using Simple Green so I can't say that wasn't a part of it.


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#6 Fast Freddie

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 02:13 PM

Cap, don't know if you read the "caution" I wrote about Simple Green break-in but here it is. 

 

I also use the Simple Green method to break in my HR motors. I follow the recommended procedure that Matt Bruce said to use except for one additional step that I added. 

 

After you have the brushes seated and the motor flushed out and thoroughly dried and before the 2 min final power supply session. Make sure the comm slots are free of any brush material. I toasted a motor because I didn't check the comm slots. 

 

I have since learned to run the motor for about 5-10 seconds after I have dried it out then I check the comm slots and if they are free of brush material I go ahead with the 2 min. final break-in. If not I clean them out with a toothpick.


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#7 Cap Henry

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 02:24 PM

No. I didn't, Freddie. I looked in them all, admittedly not overly close, but they looked OK.

I'm by no means upset, it's $13 and I'm accepting that I broke them in using a way clearly against the manufacturer's advice.

Sorry for the drift LOL.


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#8 Frankie Schaffier

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 02:54 PM

Yes, only $14 but as is said above and we've all seen it, sometimes you have to go through a bunch to find a couple good ones. I look at it this way... Pro Slot is at least working towards improving their FK series motor, not that they are perfect either but listening to racers and working to assure the best that they can that they work out of the package with some consistency.

 

JK is still selling motors with the brushes in backwards and we wonder why there are issues.


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#9 bbr

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:04 PM

The Simple Green break-in does leave a deposit in the comm slot. One motor had a fire while I was running it at 3 volts after the break-in.


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#10 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:33 PM

Has any one else experienced slow 7R Retro Hawk motors lately? I purchased 10 motors before the Sano and found only two that were even close to being useble and one of those blew up. Most are at least 2 to 3 tenths off the pace.

 

I bought 10 more and tried six of them at Tom Thumb recently with not a single one being usable.

 

There seemed to be a much higher failure rate of motors at the Sano than normal I thought. Matt Sheldon blew up seven or eight motors over the weekend.

 

I have not changed my break-in procedures or anything else. Normally in the past I have found about 20% of the motors to be exceptional, 60% to be good and 20% to be duds.

 

Of the 18 I purchased prior to Sano I had 10 fail. Four threw windings, five that started OK but then simply lost their brakes and then slowed to the point that they did not finish their first race and one that the brush fell off the arm. The other eight I put in a red bag for now.

 

This is the first time I have ever had any Hawk Retros fail, ever. I have been a strong supporter of the motor and feel I have had above average success with my break-in procedure.

 

My hand-out motors from Sano have seemed to be OK.

 

Not really sure what I am going to do at this point. I gave away 30 NOS R motors to Ralph Thorne as I initially was liking the additional brakes the 7R seemed to have. Currently racing only once a month and driving 2.5 hours each way to do it, I do not like not being able to trust my equipment as it takes the fun out of it.


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#11 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:39 PM

My R4 hand-outs are the best 7Rs I have found, but admittedly until right before Sano I have not really had any bad ones.
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#12 Jeff Bonanno

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:10 PM

Hmm, I used about 10 of my new ones, with two being pretty fast but one of those fast ones lost its brakes the more I used it and the other one didn't lose brakes. The other eight were just slow to average.

#13 Brinkley47

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 06:02 PM

I had problems with new JK 7Rs, too. The good new 7R motors will fall off at times and then pick right back up. I have verified this on and off the track.
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#14 Joe Rocket

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:54 AM

Just recently purchased four new 7R motors and all of them were paperweights. Out of the eight motors I own I have one good one that I have run four times and I'm sure it's on its last legs.

Having to spend $100+ to get one good $13 motor is a bit ridiculous. Didn't we start running "sealed motors" to help everyone save money?
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#15 Rob Voska

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 07:24 AM

I have a bag of Group 12 arms looking for the golden trud same here the cost of slot racing.

 
Just maybe it's not as much the motor as it is the 14v punchbowl tracks...  :dash2:

Just sayin...
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#16 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:54 AM

FWIW... Out here on the West Coast at Buena Park Raceway I haven't heard of any of the racers complaining about performance issues with the Hawk Retro 7R motors.  :)
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#17 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:16 AM

Biggest issue I have seen with the new Retro Hawks has been somewhat Simple Green related.

If the rinse water isn't dead clean and that motor isn't totally hosed out of the Simple Green then it seems to cling to the comm and just plain gums up the works.

 

I've found that the occasional lighter fluid hosing with the motor running can clear the last bit of the Simple Green out and wake up a stubborn motor (or Niftech comm cleaner if you happen to have some) but at that point you're really compromising the potential life of that bullet!


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#18 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:24 AM

My final step is running the motor for 10-15 seconds in alcohol. Gets rid of break-in fluid and contamination.
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#19 The Number of

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:48 PM

Vodka, Jack Daniels, single malt scotch? :)
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#20 Cap Henry

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:55 PM

Bud Light LOL.

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#21 Racer36

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:20 PM

I think a splash of Jose Cuervo would be a much better choice. It always motivates me!


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#22 Gator Bob

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:33 PM

Sounds like it would be best to get those motors from BPR.


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#23 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:19 PM

The hand-out motors we used at BPR for the Summer Western Classic were for the most part excellent. I bought some of the leftover motors. I assume that batch is sold out and haven't needed to purchase a new JKRH motor since then.

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#24 jimht

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:04 PM

One more time... sealed motor racing is not about saving money.
Those who can afford it will always outspend those who can't or won't, as long as they're allowed to do so.
 
Sealed motor racing is not about parity.
There's way too much variation allowed in the cars to have the motor be the deciding factor.
 
Sealed motor racing is about eliminating the building and/or tweaking of motors so that there's more time to do other stuff... like building chassis or walking the dog.


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#25 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:27 PM

FWIW... Out here on the West Coast at Buena Park Raceway I haven't heard of any of the racers complaining about performance issues with the Hawk Retro 7R motors.  :)


Bryan, what's the voltage on BPR's King? And you're right, mo complaints [so far] regarding R7s or whatever they are now from out West. Guess I'll be finding out about these Hawks on the King soon enough.
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#26 raisin27

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:36 PM

Guys...

Please. I didn't start this post to trash JK or sealed motor racing.

I just was wondering if others were having the same issues I am having.

Michael Garrett

 

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#27 MSwiss

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:00 PM

Raisin,

Did you try all the motors on the track?

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#28 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:17 PM

Tom,

King track voltage set at 13.2.

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#29 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 08:05 PM

I just was wondering if others were having the same issues I am having.


Yes, others are having the same issues.

#30 Tim Neja

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:09 PM

FWIW... Out here on the West Coast at Buena Park Raceway I haven't heard of any of the racers complaining about performance issues with the Hawk Retro 7R motors.  :)


Yes we've had great luck with the Retro Hawks – but we do only run on 13.2 volts and I believe that definitely helps with the reliability and longevity!!

 

I know many of those tracks back east are 14 volts or even more! FWIW.


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#31 Tim Wood

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:23 PM

The percentage to ratio of RH motors is average. I have better luck with the H7. 



#32 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:45 AM

I don't understand this statement: "The percentage to ratio of RH motors is average."


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#33 Racer36

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:07 AM

That makes two of us...

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#34 Butters37

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:18 AM

I don't think the 14 volts is why motors are not running the way older models or versions are. The motors were changed in a way to improve them. That seems to have happened on the brakes side and for awhile on the speed side. The latest batches though are off the mark when it comes to lap times. And some are having issues with a lot more failure rate.

What seems to be lost in all of this is one thing. The Premier races seem to get different batches of motors. They have all been very good the last few years. Do you think the IRRA® or JK will let a slower or not the best quality go out for hand-outs at a race where the flagship motor is the Retro Hawk? No way.

 

What I want to know is why are the ones so far off lately in the blisters that we can buy from the shops? They are slower. Which when it comes down to it we all look at lap times and if the motor doesn't run, back to the box or the trash it goes. Simple.


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#35 The Number of

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:23 PM

That makes two of us...


It is up to at least three now.


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#36 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:26 PM

Tim goes out of his way to improve the products he sells us. He's one of the good guys in this hobby. We should be happy to have him and to a greater extent have access to him.

I'm sure he will work out any shortcomings with these RH motors so you guys can go back to bitching about how the fast guys are always cheating.
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#37 Fast Freddie

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:48 PM

One last thought about the Simple Green break-in method. 

 

It doesn't apply heat to those flat brush springs. What does is running in the motors for many, many minutes just to get the brushes to seat. I recently used the Simple Green method on my H7s. The brushes on the older motors are softer then the newer, comm-tied, motors. It takes about 5-7 min. at 3 volts on the older and about 7-12 min. on the newer ones. 

 

After using this method on all 20 of my "tin can" motors I have only had one burn up, the one that taught me about the brush material in the comm slots. I always check the comm slots now and had several of the H7 motors that required cleaning. The rest I had no problem with and most all ran good to very good. I just think keeping the heat away from the brush springs is a good thing.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.


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#38 MSwiss

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:56 PM

Jason,

Before you go off on some cockamamy conspiracy theory, why don't you examine the facts?

The packaged motors are packaged in China. So you can't claim Tim is going through them and sorting them and steering the faster ones to the Premier events.

Even if the motors were packaged here, or they were being extensively sorted in China, the proof that there isn't any hijinks, is all the motors are not broken-in!

So it's just a coincidence that the bulk motors have been good at the recent Premier events.

So instead of throwing your dud motors in the thrash, why don't you send them back to JK, so Tim can possibly find an issue he can approach nring up with his vendor.

Tim has made trips to China to improve the motor consistency. He hasn't bothered to travel halfway across the world to make sure his vendor knows he wants the motor performance to be all over the place, so he can take a beating on the Internet about it.

PS: On a slightly different subject, when Mike McM announced his hand=out plan, for this past R4, you were the first and most vocal critic of the racers who announced they weren't interested in going, if Can-Am was hand-outs.

Now that the plan for this year is not your preferred method, you were the first guy to threaten to skip the race.

That makes you a hypocrite/diva.


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#39 Butters37

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 01:02 PM

Mike, no conspiracy theory at all.

 

So everyone has hand-out motors from larger races that are their best motors or among the top. The ones that are being purchased at the shops are not quite up to snuff for a lot of people, as is being said here.

If I was having a large race with hand-outs I would not want a special batch but a smaller batch that has better tolerances. etc., to use. I did not say there is anything wrong with it. It would be the smartest thing considering the level of drivers, the stage, and the words going back to different areas about the race and the motor quality.

Broken-in or not, Mike, has nothing to do with it. But the rate of failure in the normal blisters is far higher than anything seen at the large trays that are being used at Premier races.

Why would assuming there is a difference in the motors be wrong? I mean around Ohio we have all seen and felt it on the track. Everyone here so far is saying the same thing.

It's not theory, it's in the lap times. There is zero wrong with it in my mind. That is a simple hand=out theory that was done for years in R/C. All the arms were always way more balanced and groomed for hand-out races. Always to make the race and the manufacturers look at their best. People spend a lot of money to go to the larger races... as a consumer I would hope that these practices are being used in slots to make sure the dollars being spent have value.


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#40 Butters37

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 01:07 PM

It has nothing to do with my preference on the race, Mike. Do I want to waste money now that the season is already in swing to try to find motors for one race? Not a chance. I have vacation the following week. So for me going makes no sense since its not hand-out because of my personal life.

 

It was great last year at the R4 and I've told Mike that. Everything ran great and it was a truly well-run event, top to bottom.


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#41 MSwiss

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 01:27 PM

Why would assuming there is a difference in the motors be wrong? I mean around Ohio we have all seen and felt it on the track. Everyone here so far is saying the same thing.

 
How can you make that statement when Cap posted in this thread that he just got five motors, broke them in and they were all within a .1 of the record on his King track?

Your off-kilter theory would imply that Tim wants to ruin the reputation of his company, by purposely, periodically, marketing inferior motors.

A - This isn't R/C. The motors aren't assembled, or reassembled, by JK.

B - The main use for bulk motors, by JK, is for RTR cars.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#42 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 02:16 PM

The conspiracy that the big IRRA® races are getting hand-picked motors does not pass the smell test.

 

I heard the same thing concerning the conspiracy from a local Florida racer. He did not have a response to the fact that you cannot reliably evaluate which are the best motors until the brushes are broken-in. One big 'dah' to him.


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Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
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#43 Butters37

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 04:08 PM

Amazing how I am saying its a conspiracy. Never once said that and you insisting I did is laughable.

Unfortunately these threads come about from racers airing issues they have found in order to discuss it. And when we are all but Cap saying the same thing in IRRA® regions we must be the problem.

R4 and Sano motors have been proven on lap times to be better than the motors we are buying over the counter at this time. Were they from the same batch? Is this a new batch that just isn't meeting expectations? What is it? It's something, otherwise people would have told Raisin on post one he is nuts.

But they didn't. No one accused the IRRA® or JK of contamination of slot racing, Mike. You jumped to that conclusion all your own.

After all isn't this a public forum where we can discuss things? Aren't we doing it in a civil manner? Why is it only an issue when the racers question JK? Always it turns into this. And generally it starts turning lets say colorful from the other side of the fence.

I bet if this was about Pro Slot there wouldn't be one issue with the conversation. Or maybe about thin bodies? But since it is, a fact here, the IRRA® flagship motor you assume it's out of order to discuss.


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#44 Rob Voska

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 04:09 PM

Feel free to check my math and I'll correct it if wrong.

 

155 ft King Track x 12" = 1,860" lap length.

 

3.1415927 x .800 dia tire = 2.513" roll-out.

 

1860" / 2.513" = 740.07 tire / zxle RPL (Revolutions Per Lap).

 

OCC uses a fixed gear ratio of 10/36 or 3.6 ratio.

 

740.07 RPL x 3.6 ratio =  2664.252 motor revolutions per lap.

 

5.0 second lap time = 12 LPM (laps per minute) x 2664.252 MRPL = 31,971.024 RPM.

4.9 second lap time = 12.244 LPM x 2664.252 MRPL = 32621.101 RPM.

5.1 second lap time = 11.764 LPM x 2664.252 MRPL = 31342.261 RPM.

 

The "range" is 32621.101 - 31.342.261 = 1278.8405 RPM or 96.0797 or 4% spread or + - 2% from the mean...

So if you have a motor that's .02 faster than average it's 4% better or .02 slower it's 4% worse than the mean...

 

Even if I'm wrong you'll have to do some math to prove it. just like your eighth grade math teacher told you!  :shok:



#45 jimht

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 04:44 PM

It's always good to mention a problem to see if others have had it but the number of motors sampled by racers posting here is minuscule compared to a large production run and has literally no statistical significance.

 

No doubt Tim is paying attention and will address any serious problems brought up by the raceways and distributors. 

 

Otherwise, it's best to let opinions stay out of about how vast a problem it is or isn't.


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#46 JK Products

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 05:05 PM

I realize how critical consistent motor performance is and we have been working very hard to reduce the variability of our motors and have been very successful. We now make the most consistent sealed motor in the industry. Compared to the first batch of Hawk Retro motors, we have reduced the variability about 60% (the gap between the fastest motor and the slowest motor is now less than half as big as it was). We will continue to try to improve them further.

 

Unfortunately, some people have an ax to grind against JK (for numerous reasons) and will continue to make unsupported claims no matter how silly it makes them look. I can’t help those people as they are not being objective or fair. For the people who really think there might be an issue, we will always follow up on honest concerns.

 

Raisin, while you say in post #32 you didn’t want to start a post to trash JK, but it’s hard to believe that what you are seeing now isn’t the inevitable outcome. Still, I will take your word for it as you are well respected by most. As I requested in my PM to you, please send me the motors. Of course, I’ll at least cover the cost of shipping. How much more I do will depend upon what I find. If you refuse to send them (I don’t think you will), as other people who have done who started similar posts in the past, that will send a very different and very clear message as to your true intent.

 

For those that think we “cherrypick” our hand-out motors.

 

#1. We don’t do it. When I order motors from the factory, I guess at how many blistered and bulk motors I need. Sometimes I get the mix wrong. I have had to polybag bulk motors and staple them to a blister card, and I have had to pull motors out of blister cards to sell as bulk. The motors are exactly the same.

 

#2. I wouldn’t know how to cherrypick non-broken-in motors even if I wanted to. Exactly how would I test the motors to select the best ones? If someone can give me a good reliable test that doesn’t require breaking in the motors, I’ll make it a standard for all my motors (and I’ll compensate the person who suggests it handsomely). FYI, we have found dyno testing on the bench to be far too unreliable for estimating track performance in unbroken-in motors (even with broken-in motors actually). If anyone has hard data disputing that, I’ll be glad to investigate but I don’t believe that is an option.

 

We do test 100% of our motors for minimal RPM test at the factory but that is all we do right now. This will only identify major problems and the defect rate is pretty small. I believe I have a video of the process if people really want to see it. 


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#47 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 05:13 PM

Feel free to check my math and I'll correct it if wrong.

 

Rob, looks like you and I have a similar recreational statistics problem! LOL.

 

But seriously, reading that data can be quite eye-opening because it demonstrates how little the difference truly can be between a "good" and "bad" motor, let alone the variances that we can verify with Retro Hawk performance regardless of whether or not those variances are within the norm for the motor. 

 

It's a far from perfect scenario, no doubt about that.


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#48 MSwiss

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 05:23 PM

I just got a PM with the below request from Raisin;

 

If it is within the Slotblog rules can you delete the post  "at the request of the poster." I'm sorry I ever posted it as it has gone totally off track from what I meant it to be.

 

I'm going to honor it, leaving this last post up for a bit, so Slotbloggers know what happened.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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