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True Vintage racing is (not so) slowly becoming impossible


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:04 AM

     It's no secret that getting a hold of vintage Mabuchis (*especially FT16D, but also 26D and even FT36D types) is becoming really difficult.  I've done what I can to keep some of the motors going with less-than-pristine parts, and while the cans can more easily be "resurrected", the end bells are all-but-gone.  The few you might find "out there" are going for really silly money as a result.  While collecting these things is a worthwhile pastime (*if you have the money), actually running or racing them has gotten almost silly.  

     To my mind, Steve Okeefe's "Vintage Style" notion is the perfect way to keep running the "type" cars in the spirit of the (earlier) 1960's, without sacrificing the dwindling and irreplaceable motors that are still around.  Never really having been a "strictly period-correct" kind of guy, I've sort of been in favor of this whole thing before it got  a name.  I don't think much, if any organized true vintage racing goes on here in the US, aside from maybe some club tracks.  There are some infrequent events such as proxy races and the like here, but nothing significant.  So once again I have to ask, why not just use good easily-available and affordable analogs?  While the rules were mostly pretty scarce back in the day, it would only take a few extras to make this all happen.   I guess (?) this is way more of an issue for Europeans and some other countries outside the US, but what could help would be to see more "vintage style" builds happening, even when the cars aren't necessarily for racing.  That kind of acceptance by builders could wind up helping acceptance by those who race these things.  Ultimately, even the people who build just for the sheer enjoyment are going to run out of good candidates.


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John Havlicek




#2 SlotStox#53

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:14 AM

Do what you can with parts you have available :)

The only thing left is to hope for some 3d filament that's got enough heat resistance and get some endbells printed. I saw in one of your threads a Blogger who does velocoraptor endbells in the frosted material. Short drag run blasts but at least it shows it can be done.
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#3 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:30 AM

In the late 60s the motor rule was pretty much run what you brung. So as long as you stay away from little strap motors or multi magnet setups I think the new stuff fits in perfectly. If anybody is racing such things.


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#4 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:30 AM

Hi Paul,

  Of course 3D printing CAN be done, it's short-run only and actually making cheap copies in quantity is probably a long way off...if  even that.  This is a REALLY small niche thing.  Far better to just adopt good modern analogs in my mind.  NOBODY in their right mind is going to invest in the setup and tooling to actually produce quantities of end bells that need to sell for less than $10 to *maybe* a couple of hundred people.  :)  Then too, the end bell hardware will need to be done also...a whole 'nuther thing.  It's hard enough for current motor manufacturers to see ROI for motors being run today!


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John Havlicek

#5 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:32 AM

In the late 60s the motor rule was pretty much run what you brung. So as long as you stay away from little strap motors or multi magnet setups I think the new stuff fits in perfectly. If anybody is racing such things.

 

Yes...and people DO run these things alright.  I think it's also key that people who build for the sheer enjoyment also adopt the mindset.  After all, there are more people interested in these things than *just* those who actually run/race them!  :)


John Havlicek

#6 dc-65x

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:53 AM

Hi John,

 

 

I think it's also key that people who build for the sheer enjoyment also adopt the mindset.

 

BINGO!  :good:

 

 

To my mind, Steve Okeefe's "Vintage Style" notion is the perfect way to keep running the "type" cars in the spirit of the (earlier) 1960's..............

 

I agree. Maybe if his idea hadn't been relentlessly attacked by "modern racer rule mongers" he would have pursued his thread to fruition.

 

Sorry..........I should probably delete this. I'm venting...... :dash2:


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Check out Steve Okeefe's great web site at its new home here at Slotblog:
The Independent Scratchbuilder
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#7 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:35 PM

Hi John,

 

 

I agree. Maybe if his idea hadn't been relentlessly attacked by "modern racer rule mongers" he would have pursued his thread to fruition.

 

Sorry..........I should probably delete this. I'm venting...... :dash2:

 

I see no reason to delete anything Rick!  While I understand the whole "rule thing" as an effort to keep things even, it sure seems to get out of hand and there's at least the perception out there that things aren't even at all anyway (I get asked all the time to wind cheater arms by people who are convinced they need to "do what the other cheaters are doing").  I don't mean to stir up a hornet's nest either, and we all ought to be grown up enough to be able to at least talk about these things.

So, staying out of "retro", vintage style or 'type" or whatever running/racing still has a place, and there are more people doing slots than just those who participate in the very successful retro racing.  For those who do enjoy building, showing, running and even racing these things...allowing some rational nod to the reality that we face seems like it should be a no-brainer.  ***I don't even know how long Parma D can motors and parts will be around, but the Mabuchi stuff is getting really scarce, especially in non-melted fairly clean examples.  More modern D and C motors are good substitutes for the old motors, and Steve has shown that you can even do end bell drive versions if you REALLY want to emulate the old stuff, but even that is carrying things kinda far :)  

I'd like to see more builds under the vintage style aesthetic because it could not only ease acceptance of racing that way, but also just plain old building.  After all, the supply or brass rod, tube and piano wire doesn't seem to be going anywhere...for now!  :shok:


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John Havlicek

#8 MSwiss

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:14 PM

Hi John,
 

 
BINGO!  :good:
 

 
I agree. Maybe if his idea hadn't been relentlessly attacked by "modern racer rule mongers" he would have pursued his thread to fruition.
 
Sorry..........I should probably delete this. I'm venting...... :dash2:

Rick,
Steve's Vintage Style racing was attacked in the beginning, only because of the way he presented it, mysteriously, with only small dribbles of information revealed, leaving the reader to guess what he was getting at.

Once it was fully explained, IIRC, it was "sure, go for it".

AFAIK, Ken Hill built a car, and that was it.

Did Steve himself, ever finish a car?

I just don't think there was enough widespread interest, probably because the guys from that era, can get their fix, racing Retro, where there isn't any shortage of parts available.
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#9 boxerdog

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:43 PM

Absolutely right, John. When we actually raced vintage stuff out here (and used up vintage parts sometimes) the rules encouraged Ebay/keyboard racing to a certain extent because rules are important to some people. We really can't recapture the past as much as we might want to, but it's kinda fun to try if you don't obsess over trivia. I envy those that still have viable vintage programs going.

 

I also wish I had a bunch of those American Line 36d RTR anglewinders. Those made for great racing.

 

Just my .02 as usual.


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#10 dc-65x

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:51 PM

As I said, I should probably delete my post. I don't mean to drag this through the mud again. I just always wished he would have been allowed to pursue his idea without all the attacks.  If the "vintage mindset" that John mentioned would have been in play, perhaps he would have.

 

I know about this mindset as I started vintage racing without it. I learned it from fellow racer Rodney and it made playing with vintage slot cars really fun. I also realize those without it are like the Terminator.........they absolutely will not stop!

 

So I will.  :bye:


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#11 Pablo

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:53 PM

John, where is this "vintage racing" going on you speak of?

Is there a list somewhere I'm not aware of?

 

I know there is a Choti-style proxy event coming up. Other than that, I'm unaware of any.


Paul Wolcott

#12 MSwiss

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:12 PM

John, where is this "vintage racing" going on you speak of?
Is there a list somewhere I'm not aware of?
 
I know there is a Choti-style proxy event coming up. Other than that, I'm unaware of any.

 
Pablo,
In the below link. You made the last post in it. Lol
http://slotblog.net/...e-idea-restart/


As I said, I should probably delete my post. I don't mean to drag this through the mud again. I just always wished he would have been allowed to pursue his idea without all the attacks.  If the "vintage mindset" that John mentioned would have been in play, perhaps he would have.
 
I know about this mindset as I started vintage racing without it. I learned it from fellow racer Rodney and it made playing with vintage slot cars really fun. I also realize those without it are like the Terminator.........they absolutely will not stop!
 
So I will.  :bye:

Where's all that Terminator quality resistance in the above link?

Pablo posted 12/26/16, and the thread died.

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#13 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:17 PM

John, where is this "vintage racing" going on you speak of?

Is there a list somewhere I'm not aware of?

 

I know there is a Choti-style proxy event coming up. Other than that, I'm unaware of any.

 

Oy veh Pablo.  I'm sure I mentioned it above several times that this is still at least somewhat of a thing in Europe and not (*to my knowledge) a thing here at all, unless it's going on in private/club tracks.  Believe me when I tell you that they DO race the old motors over there...but I can't really build them anymore, at least not with 100% correct parts.  There are some vintage motors over there that I don;t think were available here like the Buehler that's almost a dead-ringer with a Mabuchi FT16D (*bit with a nicer paint job!).  Also, see below about sort of "vintage" racing (at least the motors) in stockers.  It's gone now, but probably at least partly because the good stuff is gone.

Aside from the racing, running or just plain "meets" over there, there is apparently still a great enthusiasm for the old cars in general.  I've done large batches of motors that go to Germany, Italy etc., but really can't do them anymore.  You guys DO realize that slot racing happens worldwide right?  :D

I think that Steve did get hassled, and it at least seemed to me that maybe it was more about his presentation than the substance.  I mean, he didn't exactly invent "going slow" to help spur interest in a topic!  :D

 

Absolutely right, John. When we actually raced vintage stuff out here (and used up vintage parts sometimes) the rules encouraged Ebay/keyboard racing to a certain extent because rules are important to some people. We really can't recapture the past as much as we might want to, but it's kinda fun to try if you don't obsess over trivia. I envy those that still have viable vintage programs going.

 

I also wish I had a bunch of those American Line 36d RTR anglewinders. Those made for great racing.

 

Just my .02 as usual.


There was a while when 36D stockers were a thing not that long ago, and some ridiculous motors with substituted hardware and serious double winds running ARCOs were a thing, but that stuff has dried-up too.  I don;t even know who has ARCO magnets for sale, least not at a reasonable price.


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#14 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:33 PM

 

 

So ... what is the temp range of the filament needed to print endbells that are at least as good as those FT16D 'bells'. ?

 

 

Kind of a side-subject, but if you look at the filaments currently used in the more affordable home-type printers, they're not even good to the boiling point of water!  :D  I mean, that stuff is maybe good for doing a "Rat Fink" to hang on your rear-view mirror, and not even in a warm climate at that.  The tech just isn't there.  The machines have come down even further lately, some being under $200, but I'm sure the output of those things is pretty rough...not that that matters all that much.  The filaments though are just not at all suitable.  If someone were kraazee enough, they'd be better off machining some end bells from good nylon or other more expensive materials...but still...why?, when there are good substitutes.


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John Havlicek

#15 B.C.

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:39 PM

it does seem like endbell parts are the hardest--I have been looking for brush holder pent roofs for 16d

 

endbells forever and a day

 

b.c.


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#16 grooverunner

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:42 PM

Hey Guys,

 

Sneak peak below..

 

I built The one car but believe me it's not the last...

 

I have been working  on and making Drop arms Rick can attest to that.

 

drop arms.jpg

 

polished nutley droparm.jpg

 

Without the drop arms you would not have true vintage style at least once stamped drop arms came in.

also working on a few other parts for vintage style like motor end bells so you can run end bell drive and use a ProSlot drag master can,

Front wheels 3/4'' that look like Dynamics.

Dragmaster endbell v10 v2.png

 

Dragmaster_endbell_v10_2017-Aug-04_07-29-54PM-000_HOME.png

 

wheels.jpg

 

 

Enjoy

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Ken  Hill

#17 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:56 PM

Good stuff Ken.  Once again, I think it's good to emphasize that:

*I am not looking to "start" some kind of vintage or vintage style racing class...it's already being done, and aside from racing/running/meets, vintage building is also of course an aspect of this hobby that interests some folks.

*I don't think it's necessary to have "new" replacements parts manufactured, or really that it even makes sense.  That's not to say it isn't cool when people do that!  I'd just like to see more builds done "vintage style", because the segment that does appreciate the vintage stuff could simply disappear.


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#18 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 03:09 PM

New ideas, or new approaches to old ideas are always attacked at the outset; that is how we find out if they are viable.  Since this idea has not gone away, it is reasonable to presume it has some merit.

 

Mike,

 

You're a smart guy, and a fearsome competitor, there is no question about that, but I think this time you are missing the point.  Before you go any further, show me where I have stated or implied in any way that my Vintage-style idea has anything at all to do with racing or the creation of a new racing class.

 

"Vintage-style Cars" (you will find that is the title of my sub-forum) and "The Vintage-style Idea"  (which is the title of the thread therein) are all about building cars, preserving slot racing history, and having some fun doing it while perhaps indulging in some fond memories.  There is no mention anywhere of racing anything.

 

Now, should come to pass that two or more of these Vintage-style cars are in the same raceway at the same time, I would be surprised to discover that a race did not break out!  That is where your knowledge and experience will be most valuable and appreciated.  In the meantime, please feel free to enjoy racing Retro cars; I and my fellow hobbyists will endeavor to enjoy building Vintage-style cars.

 

 


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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 03:32 PM

Steve,
My posts were in response to Rick's assertion that outside forces prevented "Vintage Style" from moving forward.

How could that even be possible?

Unless someone traveled to where you live and stole your soldering iron? Lol
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Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#20 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 03:45 PM

Ken,

 

You just keep on making those drop arms, and any and everything else you can dream up!  I'll buy some.

 

John Havlicek makes H-Cans and is responsible for some truly beautiful motors.

 

We each do our own thing; please keep doing yours.


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#21 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 03:50 PM

Mike,

 

I've been wondering where that soldering iron got off to... :laugh2:



#22 Don Weaver

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 04:27 PM

Ken -

 

Any chance your drop arms will be available to purchase?

 

Don


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#23 grooverunner

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:14 PM

Steve

 

I'll be doing what I'm doing, even if I there was no one else even interested in it I be doing it. Creating a car from raw materials and recreating vintage cars from them is my favorite part of Slot cars. Scratch building to the extreme.

 

 

Don,

 

They will be, I'm still working on them getting the quality dialed in with Steve O  and Rick Thigpen as the Quality Control experts. I figure if it's up to there quality level then  they will be salable.. Getting very close will announce here.

 

Ken


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Ken  Hill

#24 dc-65x

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:18 PM

Ken has kindly sent me his Team Nutley drop arm and it is truly beautiful. Thank you again for making them.


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Check out Steve Okeefe's great web site at its new home here at Slotblog:
The Independent Scratchbuilder
There's much more to come...


#25 raisin27

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:52 PM

Would it be possible to resin cast replacement enbells? I know that model car resin caster can make some rather complicated parts


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