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Hawk 7 two-speed "wall" syndrome


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#101 MSwiss

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 04:52 PM

Kevin,

Here are the results from two races at my raceway, two different years, the top one, with hand-outs, the bottom one with the racer running any circa Retro Hawk.

Pretty exciting stuff, with these so-called junk motors. LOL.

GTC-Pro results:

1) Howie Ursaner - 295 laps, best time of 4.669 in blue
2) Ralph Thorne - 294, 4.647 in blue
3) Kevin VanPelt - 294, 4.581 in blue
4) Ross Scharf - 293, 4.651 in blue
5) Greg Fox - 293, 4.646 in blue
6) Mike Swiss - 292, 4.673 in orange
7) Joe "Noose" Neumeister - 292, 4.643 in green
8) Bernie Schatz - 241, 4.886 in blue
9) Les Chase - 16, 4.699 in green

post-4-0-81497100-1475506947.jpg

PS: I hope you at least enjoy slot racing, when you are at the raceway.

From reading your posts, here on Slotblog, with the majority, being negative, one would almost think you detest this hobby.
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Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#102 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:51 PM

There are better sealed motors for about the same price from both JK and Pro Slot. Why aren't they allowed in more races instead of the throwaway stuff?

BA31C57C-4EBF-4D65-BF6D-D85D334A00CE.jpeg

4AEBD365-5FA5-42F9-8D63-EE7A3AA86F4E.jpeg



#103 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:34 PM


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#104 MSwiss

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:45 PM

In the case of the IRRA®, not practical for hand-outs, with hood blueprinting typically needed, with push-start issues occasionally seen, unless using trimmed brushes.
 
IOW, the IRRA® used motors with replaceable brushes, and it didn't make the racing any closer, and top guys still had 30-50 motors.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#105 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:48 PM

Kevin,

See HERE
 
and HERE.
Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#106 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:54 PM

The same guys will win no matter the motors or the class. They're the best and invest the most time and money to win. What I'm talking about is using a reliable motor for weekly racers instead of blowing money on junk. The last two Hawk 7S I bought were junk. I won't waste money and time with another one.

#107 Racer36

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:14 PM

Kevin,

The fact that you don’t even race and just spend time at the track with your kids seems to simplify your motor choices. Why not put Hawk 6 motors in your cars and run the wheels off of them?

Probably a good idea to stop listening to a few guys at Fantasy that hate Retro Hawk motors and Hawk 7s. It would be a great idea for you to come to North East sometime and watch the races. You will see how good RH racing can be.
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#108 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:18 PM

I don't listen to anyone. I just run my cars with my kids. I don't even know what youre talking about in the North East but have fun. Maybe they have a different motor there but the ones I've had are junk.

#109 MSwiss

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:23 PM

Kevin,

Your opinion on junk doesn't match with my racers opinion of junk.
 
Mark Rosenwinkel, one of the racers shown in the below results, ran a Retro Hawk for 20+ races on Wednesday night here at C/R, winning approximately 15 of them.
 
Are you saying 65 cents a race, and 86 cents, a win, constitutes a junk motor?
 
Here's the results from this past Wednesday's Retro Hawk GTP race.
 
Look at best race lap times.
 
Five of the racers ran a top 26 lap heat (actually Lee ran a fairly rare 27).
 
20171119_182436-1.jpg

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#110 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:24 PM

:D  Sarcasm alert  :wacko2:
 
Yeah... run a sealed conventional rebuildable motor and have an authorized motor refurb program. That should work out real well.
 
See HERE, too:

Oh hell... just go to the IRRA® forum and look at every motor discussion thread. The fact that most are locked says a lot. :dash2:
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#111 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:36 PM

I help a lot of racers at the track and put in a lot of Retro Hawks for them. I find that they want me to change the motor and use the old pinion and crown gears that are beat to heck. I say to them,"You want me to put a new motor in with these old crappy gears?"

 

Why would you do that? The bad gear mesh is going to kill the can bushing and the motor won't be any better than what was already in there. If you're going to put a new motor in, do it right and you will be happy with the results. New gears are usually good for a tenth!


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#112 Gator Bob

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:38 PM

If anyone says the motors are 'crappy,' the answer is always the racing is close. :scratch_one-s_head: :fool:

 

That's a diversion tactic commonly used lately. Then it's the buyers fault the motors are 'crappy' because he ____ ______ . 

Even if the A Main was an eight-way tie the motors still are 'crappy'... with brushes installed wrong.  

 

Simple logic and facts prevail.

 

:secret: Did you hear A Mainers are free reving their FK motors up to 12 volts?


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Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#113 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:59 PM

The "two-speed" has nothing to do with gears.

#114 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:01 PM

Bob,
 
I showed up at the Brawl Sunday with Blaha to race Can-Am. If I recall there were 52 entries. All racing the same crappy motors. 
 
F1 snobs are always joking about the "crappy" cam in block, pushrod motors  we run in our Stock Cars.
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Sam Levitch
 
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#115 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:36 PM

You guys will have to figure this out. I'm still just learning myself. I'm just one of those mid-pack racers  that enjoys racing toy cars.
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#116 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

Yeah... right :laugh2:

Pretty good 2016-17 Retro East season
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Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#117 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:26 PM

Fantasy Raceway? Hmmm... Can you say "Mike Fleming"? :sarcastic_hand:
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Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
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#118 old & gray

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:40 PM

... with brushes installed wrong.

 
Disclaimer – I built my own motor program for Group 12 wing cars and my results were above average in two USRA series. My statements are based on that experience.
 
When building a C-can motor the brush hoods are aligned, the brushes are radiused by hand, and the diameter of the commutator is cut by hand. The size of the brush radius and the comm diameter are very close so the amount of break-in is minimal.
 
The current motors use a cut on the commutator which is close to a hand cut, the brushes have a sintered face which is less desirable than hand cut and not as precise, and the alignment is controlled by the length of the brush arms and the mounting at each end (not very precise).
 
The brushes need to seat and the brushes need to be able to compensate for all the deviations from the tolerances in manufacture. If you start with a two-point contact you will have a better chance to reach the “full radius” than starting with two radii in tangent contact.
 
While the brushes appear to be “wrong way around” it is quite possibly the manufacturer making the best of the available manufacturing tolerances.
Bob Schlain

#119 Gator Bob

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 01:42 AM

Personally... I use the term 'wrong way' as it applies to slot racing performance motors realizing this is not a mistake made millions of times over.
 
In my opinion... It could be for its effect on longevity not performance. If these are used in power mirrors I would think the brushes (on the driver side) might be almost seated when it hits the crusher.

For homeset 1/32, other battery hobby, power mirrors, personal products are more its intended use and function as intended. If it was right for the application the buyer wouldn't have to stick it in water to wear half of it's life away to run good. I say 'how bizarre' to do this to six or more motors at a clip to find a raceable one.

How does that level the playing field or save racers money?

Planned obsolesce does not serve the racer well, it serves the importer/distributor and the manufacturer. 
 
As far as the which radius orientation I'm not seeing how you get a full radius faster or better with the two point theory. Consider with the two point the comm plates are worn more at the outer edges by the time that mis-orientated face radius finally makes its way to the comm plate. The comm wears in an arc instead of across the face evenly. If the radius of the brush is tighter than the comm dia brushes will 'mess up' things, fill the slots faster but would still break in more even
 
Consider... how vintage square faced brushes break in. 
 
Just sayin'.
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#120 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 03:58 AM

A motor that comes from the manufacturer with non-serviceable brushes installed in the wrong direction is junk in my opinion. You guys can talk all day about close racing but that doesn’t fix the two-speed issues.

#121 glueside

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:50 AM

Oh my god - this is insane!!! All the bashing, fingerpointing, opinions, and plain BS. If you don't like something shut up and get the hell out of slot cars. 

 

What the hell, it is a $13 motor - you all think that it should run like a Ferrari, well it isn't going to and it won't no matter what you do to it.


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#122 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:57 AM

There are better motors for about the same price that don’t have these problems. And regardless of the price, that doesn’t fix the problem.

#123 Samiam

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:57 AM

Kevin,

 

I don't like these crappy "Bic" motors either. But I like racing. I deal with it and appreciate the posts here from racers with helpful suggestions. 

 

Why don't you promote a class of racing at Fantasy that uses the PS 4002FK? Or even unsealed, built PDs? Or built C-Cans? Or built D-Cans? Let us know when you got it all put together. 


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Sam Levitch
 
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     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#124 MarkH

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:44 AM

So the situation appears to be:

1) No matter the motor configuration (closed can, sealed endbell), parity will not be achieved regardless of price point with mass-produced motors
2) Cheaper motors are better to sort through to find the cherries
3) Most do not want to build motors due to time, tools. or skills. Probably time more than the others.
 
While frustrating it is what we have. Would I rather pay $25 for a motor that is reasonably consistent in performance if I only had to buy the motors needed to race my cars, you bet. But I fear it would still come down to buying several motors trying to find the bullet based on other motor conversations (complaints). At what price point is it acceptable to buy motors in batches to find an advantage over our competition? For some we are there now. Would it be better if these motors were in the $5 range? Sure, if it only takes buying 10 to find the jewel. But those who are already spending $130 to find that best motor will now be able to sort through 26 motors instead of 10. The motor cost remains the same.
 
I really just do not see any resolution coming from this other than someone with the means to deliver parity motors regardless of price.
 
Just thinking out loud...
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#125 tonyp

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:53 AM

Regardless of the cost no one can produce electric hobby motors that all run exactly the same, too many variables. Even the brushless motors for R/C my company makes cost way more than a brushed motor to produce. These have eliminated brushes from the equation but still do not all run the same.

I’d rather spend $13 each to find a fast one than $50. It’s been a search for that magic bullet since slot cars started 50 years ago. The sealed no-tamper motor regardless of its issues is keeping slots alive and has built Retro into the great stable racing class it is.
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#126 Racer36

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:05 AM

This is actually becoming a bit comical. I see racers with 50 plus years of experience on here, that I have great respect for, trying to reason with a guy who does not race, who goes to a track that until two weeks ago did not even have a timing system, who professes to know a good motor from a bad one, and chooses to preach to the experienced on what motors they should be running.

I mean no disrespect to any of the parties, or to Fantasy Raceway( that is undergoing a rebirth that is way overdue).

It appears to me that the ones doing all the talking should be doing a lot more listening. Oops, First Amendment...
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#127 Cheater

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:20 AM

Looking at the IP addresses and other data, I think Sam's suggestion in his post #117 is a very real possibility, especialy considering the language and opinions seen in the posts "Kevin Donovan" has made over the last few days in this thread. The evidence is largely circumstantial but is pretty compelling.

"Mr. Donovan" has had his posting privileges suspended until someone in the area already known to me indicates he personally knows and/or has met Kevin Donovan face-to-face.

If I am wrong about this action, I'll be glad to apologize to Mr. Donovan and restore his privileges.

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#128 Rob Voska

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:31 AM

That's a short-sighted statement for many reasons. "I’d rather spend $13 each to find a fast one than $50."
 
* Was at the track the other day and of course the subject came up. I said it's not a $13 motor it's a $130 motor and everyone agreed with some saying that would be cheap. Because out of those only one is going to be the fastest and even it may not be a bullet.
* Why would I travel any distance to scratch off 10 lottery tickets and they are all losers? The racers that travel can't depend on luck and may not have a good testing track near by.
* With the costs of gas, tools, motels, etc...
* Lets give guys a choice. Buy 10 $13 motors for $130. Break them in any of a hundred ways. Test at the track and hope you got a good one, throw seven or eight of the 10 away and knowing it has a short life you continue the quest for another and start over.
* Or
* Koford Ultra 12 motor w/double bearings, shunts & 40° armature - KOF-M527G $124.66 and you have more than you need.
* Buy four motors for $500 and you are done for years and years. 
* There are ways to reduce that $500 cost with busings, etc...
* Yes, a X12 would be fast but how about a spec contender arm with 20 deg timing so it lasts a long time? It's worked in scale racing for years.
*Ten years of Retro has been full of nothing but motor controversy. Will it continue for another ten years?
* “The definition of insanity is repeating the same mistakes over and over again and expecting different results,”
 “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin
* Who knew Ben Franklin was talking about slot cars?
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#129 Samiam

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:34 AM

Looking at the IP addresses and other data, I think Sam's suggestion in his post #117 is a very real possibility, especialy considering the language and opinions seen in the posts "Kevin Donovan" has made over the last few days in this thread. The evidence is largely circumstantial but is pretty compelling.

"Mr. Donovan" has had his posting privileges suspended until someone in the area already known to me indicates he personally knows and/or has met Kevin Donovan face-to-face.

 

I ran out of "likes."

 

        :good:

 

Greg,

 

Can I use Bitcoins to purchase more "likes"?


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#130 Racer36

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:41 AM

Kevin Fleming... Mike Donovan... so confusing.

 

Hahahaha!


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#131 Cheater

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:46 AM

Rob,

What's lacking in your analysis is any evidence that the racing in your scenario will be any closer, or even as close, as what is has been seen over a sidnficant number of races in Retro with the sealed motors.

And that's one of the primary goals for at least one Retro racing organization: as close racing across the board as can be generated.


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#132 Samiam

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:47 AM

Rob,

 

There are many classes of slot cars run by multiple sanctioning bodies that already run the motors you describe. From "Flexi" cars to Eurosport type. No need to reinvent the wheel. Just choose one of the wheels you like.

 

But I agree with your points. They are valid. But they're just moot when it comes to any sealed motor racing.


Sam Levitch
 
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#133 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:06 AM

I don't listen to anyone.

 

That is a common problem.


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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:14 AM

Looking at the IP addresses and other data, I think Sam's suggestion in his post #117 is a very real possibility, especialy considering the language and opinions seen in the posts "Kevin Donovan" has made over the last few days in this thread. The evidence is largely circumstantial but is pretty compelling."Mr. Donovan" has had his posting privileges suspended until someone in the area already known to me indicates he personally knows and/or has met Kevin Donovan face-to-face.


Wasn't Kevin Donovan the character played by John Wayne in The Quiet Man? :)
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#135 Cheater

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:21 AM

Let me make some points that I had planned to make in a previous one of the motor ranting threads and never got around to doing.
 
In regards to the 'mis-aligned' brush orientation...
 
The so-called FK motors used in Retro are standard form-factor motor designs cataloged by various Chinese motor manufacturers. Just about the only no-cost option for someone wanting to order a batch of these motors is the wind. You want some other custom feature? Be prepared to pay for the tooling in advance and to order well above the usual required minimum quantity.
 
In fact, it is becoming a little bit difficult, I have been told by mutiple sources, to get the Chinese motor makers even to supply FK motors suitable for slot racing simply because the quantities are so minuscule in comparison to the orders placed by motor buyers in the industrial sectors. Think maybe tens of thousands as compared to millions.

I don't know why the Chinese orient the brush radius as they do on these motors, but I'm sure there is a reason. If someone like JK wants to rotate the brushes so the curves match up, he's going to have to pay in advance for a new brush mold (and it the brush itself that has to be changed, as the Chinese are not going to change their production line machinery to accomodate such a low volume of motors different from the vast majority of their normal spec). This almost certainly would require an increase in the cost of JK's motors. Let's see a show of hands... who would be willing to pay perhaps 50 cents to as much as a dollar more per motor to get the brushes rotated 90 degrees?
 
Another point is that since JK beat up his supplier to tighten the balance on the JK motors (against significant resistance, I might add), his Chinese supplier has substantially increased the minimum quantity of motors JK has to order, due to the time required to set up their line to produce JK's motors. Since JK went to the closer balancing, I'm pretty certain that only two production runs have been made. So all this talk about numerous batches of JK motors is inaccurate. If there are variances between the two batches (and I've not seen or heard any compelling evidence that that is the case), the fault lies with the Chinese manufacturer, as not a single spec has been changed according to Tim. As anyone involved in ordering products from Chinese makers can testify, they are notorious for shipping production pieces that do not exactly match the pre-production samples supplied. And don't forget, when ordering from the Chinese makers, companies have to pay in full for a run prior to it being produced, so a buyer's options are pretty limited if there are trivial variances between pre-production samples and the volume production units.
 
Seems to me that some are oblivious to the fact that, since Parma has exited the motor arena, there are now just two US-based suppliers of motors for 1/24 commercial raceway racing, three if you wish to include Koford (and I doubt whether Koford is selling anywhere near the number of motors as compared to JK and Pro Slot). Consider the possible ramifications of JK deciding to throw in the towel insofar as motors is concerned. Does anyone think that would be a good situation? I certainly do not...


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#136 MSwiss

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:37 AM

Rob,
 
I know you mean well, but you didn't provide a solution.

Guys using high quality motors on high-speed tracks still buy a lot of them.

Unless you are contending to go with too fast of a motor, guys with deep pockets will just buy more.

The "use too-fast of a motor" idea, has been suggested, years ago, by me, in reference to a slower scale class, where guys were complaining about disparity of HP. Chris Radisich has suggested it, in reference to Retro racing.

It might be interesting to try, but the entrants would have to realize racing would be much sloppier, with more attrition.
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#137 Rob Voska

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:11 AM

With all due respect.
 
"What's lacking in your analysis is any evidence that the racing in your scenario will be any closer, or even as close, as what is has been seen over a sidnficant number of races in Retro with the sealed motors."
 
Greg, what you are failing to address is the close racing you describe is eight guys, at the top of their game, that did not buy eight motors to get there. That is the charade as it represents a minimum of 80 motors (10 each) to get "that close racing."
 
It's a fool's errand to race $13 motors on a 155 ft dyno and not expect differences. I've said before maybe the motors are fine but 50-year old King tracks have been obsoleted by equipment advances and new "faster" wing car tracks. 
 
The guys in England don't have much problems with FK style motors and speak highly of them, but then they race on small tight flat tracks, they are not running on two-blip drag strip King tracks...
 
There is no possible way to defend the motors as they the been nothing but a can of worms sense the inception of Retro. How many threads have been locked over motors? The correct answer is, most of them. There is always a thread going on about motor issues of one sort or another. Then there were a lot of things changed inside sealed motors that were changed to obsolete motors or give a manufacturer an advantage over another.. 
 
If others are having fun doing it I have no problem with that. Good for them. Reading the never-ending posts, money wasted, break in procedures, threads is depressing and exhausting.
 
Another things we here fail to realize is who are involved in slots... no one notices the guy that simply drifted away because he bought X number of motors and simply gave up because he don't feel he would ever have a fair shot.
 
They tell him the speed is in the chassis, tires, body, guide, lead wire, controller, hub size, rubber compound, etc... yes they are all important but he is left chasing his tail until he gives up. No one cares about him until they have so few people they have no marshals for the the "important people in the main." (See wing car racing). I've never hears anyone say put the seventh fastest motor in my car for the main... it's already in the garbage can.
 
You don't build a pyramid from the top down you build from the ground up and racers only see ahead, faster, more, no expense spared. So leaders need to protect racers from themselves. Lots here have been doing this for a very long time it's "what they do." For a new guy to get into it it's to steep of a hill to climb. Slots don't have an attraction problem, they have a retention problem. Tracks are closing, racers are aging, and little new blood gets involved because they are not willing to buy junk. 
 
Read between the lines, it's not about racing, running good and not falling off, it's about spending more and more money to find that magic motor. Attend a big ISRA race and there is minimal motor bitching. But then they are not handcuffed by the insanity of breaking motors in, in fresh, warm, albino yack piss from the Himalayas. 
 
Bottom line there is no value in $13 motors. Buying 10 might seem fine but then you only keep the top three and the rest are simply wasted money. The cost of the three that you kept is now really $43 each. All the bandwidth taken up is nothing more than complaining about being handcuffed by rules that only work for those that want to buy/spend, test, and sort through motors and for no one else. The complaining is from guys that want to compete but simply don't have the time or money to compete in that environment. 
 
It was easy to control the release of information when there was not a message board to get your message to the world in minutes, not through magazines once a month.



#138 Danny Zona

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:24 AM

Regardless of the cost no one can produce electric hobby motors that all run exactly the same, too many variables. Even the brushless motors for R/C my company makes cost way more than a brushed motor to produce. These have eliminated brushes from the equation but still do not all run the same. I'd rather spend $13 each to find a fast one than $50. It's been a search for that magic bullet since slot cars started 50 years ago. The sealed no-tamper motor regardless of its issues is keeping slots alive and has built Retro into the great stable racing class it is.

 

I just had this conversation with the master a couple days ago.

I'm showing up with 20 built motors or 20 FK style motors. Whatever style motor is used the speed-crazed morons like me will have a motor arsenal. Like it or not.

This is also coming from a racer who didn't compete a lap in the A Main at The Fall Brawl because my motor blew up.

The motors aren't perfect but none are.


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Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Can I please have 10 more minutes of practice? I know I've had all day but I need more...😉

#139 MSwiss

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:41 AM

The guys in England don't have much problems with FK style motors and speak highly of them, but then they race on small tight flat tracks,
 
There is no possible way to defend the motors as they the been nothing but a can of worms sense the inception of Retro. H
If others are having fun doing it I have no problem with that. Good for them. Reading the never-ending posts, money wasted, break in procedures, threads is depressing and exhausting.

 

Of course the tracks are the issue.

But not every raceway has a flat track. And the ones that do, many racers don't have the time, or ambition, to learn them.

When I got back into racing, I raced $30, American-made, Mura motors. Only one out of 10, was competitive, but racers didn't have the internet to complain about them, 24/7.

If these threads are so exhausting, quit reading them.

We both know what this is all about. Your envy, with all the motor complaining, that Retro racing is way more popular in the US than the ISRA style racing you prefer.

PS: "Attend a big ISRA race and there is minimal motor bitching."

LOL You have to go to Europe for that, or wait for the ISRA Worlds to come to the US every five years or so.

Then instead of motors, you can hear them bitch about $1,000+ controllers, that aren't available to everyone.


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#140 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:46 AM

I have a great-handling Can-Am test car for all my motors to go into before they go into my actual race cars. I can get a pretty accurate reading of the speed, punch, lay down of lap times, brakes, gearing of each motor, etc.This works for my program.

 

Whether this actually applies to this topic, I'm not sure, but I figured it might help out someone...


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#141 Racer36

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:53 AM

That is actually a great idea, Brian Cochrane. I find it is too easy to blame the motor when it could be chassis set-up or tires. Having one consistent test mule will remove that from the equation. It gets the variables down to motor or lousy driver.

 

I know what my problem usually is...


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#142 Racer36

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:54 AM

BTW... I was at a P-O Retro Series race this weekend at Washington, PA, and I did not hear a motor complaint the entire weekend. 


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#143 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:57 AM

Also, 'two-speed' motors have a vibration 'wall' that once it breaks through, if it can, can run pretty fast. If you fiddle with a looser gear mesh it will sometimes help the vibration settle down and your motor will be smooth through the so called 'wall.'


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#144 Cheater

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:05 AM

Greg, what you are failing to address is the close racing you describe is eight guys, at the top of their game, that did not buy eight motors to get there. That is the charade as it represents a minimum of 80 motors (10 each) to get "that close racing."


Rob, the data set I am considering is way larger than a single recent Premier race and encompasses dozens of events, Premier races and multiple regional Retro series races, over a number of years. We also saw the same close racing occurring consistently in many of the 27 SERRA events Jay and I held 2008-11.
 

There is no possible way to defend the motors as they the been nothing but a can of worms sense the inception of Retro. How many threads have been locked over motors? The correct answer is, most of them. There is always a thread going on about motor issues of one sort or another.


I think it is a little silly to blame the motors for the never-ending contentious motor threads here and elsewhere. As far as I have been able to determine, motors aren't able to make posts here or anywhere else.

 

And, honestly, it doesn't matter what the motor scenario is, sealed, unsealed, hand-out, racers are gonna bitch, piss and, moan. They always have and always will. Remember the spring cup controversy in USRA scale racing, or the Cahoza motor controversy in USRA wing racing?
 

Another things we here fail to realize is who are involved in slots... no one notices the guy that simply drifted away because he bought X number of motors and simply gave up because he don't feel he would ever have a fair shot.


What I did notice is that were, I believe, 54 entries for Can-Am at the 2017 Fall Brawl. Entries at the various IRRA® Premier races have exhibited a decent level of stability over the decade or more that most of them have been running, which does little to support your 'sky is falling' position.

Look, Rob, I know it's obvious the Retro 'formula' is not to your liking, to put it mildly. I get that.

 

But, at least from my perspective, you've not made a compelling case that dumping the sealed, cheap, unreliable, variable 'FK" style motors for some different motor scenario would bring any guaranteed improvement in participation levels in Retro racing.

 

And IMO there has never been a slot racing rule set in the entire history of the 1/24 commercial slot racing hobby that has generated closer racing over a non-trvial number of years, across the board, top to bottom, than the current Retro formula. And I know I am not alone in that feeling, as numerous racers unprompted have expressed the exact same opinion to me. If you feel otherwise, tell me where.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#145 jimht

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:36 AM

"I know what you're doing is working but if you just do it my way you'll be doing it my way."


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#146 Rob Voska

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:41 AM

BTW... I was at a P-O Retro Series race this weekend at Washington, PA, and I did not hear a motor complaint the entire weekend. 

 

And what kind of track is that?



#147 Cheater

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:45 AM

Uh-oh... LOL!

 

A UK Black.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#148 MSwiss

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:50 AM

Rob,

Of course it was a flat track, where there is less grumbling about motors.

What do you suggest as a solution at Tom Thumb. Cut up his American King and put in a flat track?

Mike Swiss
 
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#149 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:10 PM

I like racing sealed motors



#150 JerseyJohn

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:25 PM

Rule of thumb for best performance:

Hypoid bracket (motor is flush to chassis bottom), use angled pinion only.
Non-hypoid bracket (rear of motor angled up), use a straight pinion.
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