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Hawk 7 two-speed "wall" syndrome


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#101 MSwiss

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 04:52 PM

Kevin,

Here are the results from two races at my raceway, two different years, the top one, with hand-outs, the bottom one with the racer running any circa Retro Hawk.

Pretty exciting stuff, with these so-called junk motors. LOL.

GTC-Pro results:

1) Howie Ursaner - 295 laps, best time of 4.669 in blue
2) Ralph Thorne - 294, 4.647 in blue
3) Kevin VanPelt - 294, 4.581 in blue
4) Ross Scharf - 293, 4.651 in blue
5) Greg Fox - 293, 4.646 in blue
6) Mike Swiss - 292, 4.673 in orange
7) Joe "Noose" Neumeister - 292, 4.643 in green
8) Bernie Schatz - 241, 4.886 in blue
9) Les Chase - 16, 4.699 in green

post-4-0-81497100-1475506947.jpg

PS: I hope you at least enjoy slot racing, when you are at the raceway.

From reading your posts, here on Slotblog, with the majority, being negative, one would almost think you detest this hobby.
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Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#102 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:51 PM

There are better sealed motors for about the same price from both JK and Pro Slot. Why aren't they allowed in more races instead of the throwaway stuff?

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4AEBD365-5FA5-42F9-8D63-EE7A3AA86F4E.jpeg



#103 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:34 PM


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#104 MSwiss

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:45 PM

In the case of the IRRA®, not practical for hand-outs, with hood blueprinting typically needed, with push-start issues occasionally seen, unless using trimmed brushes.
 
IOW, the IRRA® used motors with replaceable brushes, and it didn't make the racing any closer, and top guys still had 30-50 motors.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#105 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:48 PM

Kevin,

See HERE
 
and HERE.
Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#106 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:54 PM

The same guys will win no matter the motors or the class. They're the best and invest the most time and money to win. What I'm talking about is using a reliable motor for weekly racers instead of blowing money on junk. The last two Hawk 7S I bought were junk. I won't waste money and time with another one.

#107 Racer36

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:14 PM

Kevin,

The fact that you don’t even race and just spend time at the track with your kids seems to simplify your motor choices. Why not put Hawk 6 motors in your cars and run the wheels off of them?

Probably a good idea to stop listening to a few guys at Fantasy that hate Retro Hawk motors and Hawk 7s. It would be a great idea for you to come to North East sometime and watch the races. You will see how good RH racing can be.
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#108 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:18 PM

I don't listen to anyone. I just run my cars with my kids. I don't even know what youre talking about in the North East but have fun. Maybe they have a different motor there but the ones I've had are junk.

#109 MSwiss

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:23 PM

Kevin,

Your opinion on junk doesn't match with my racers opinion of junk.
 
Mark Rosenwinkel, one of the racers shown in the below results, ran a Retro Hawk for 20+ races on Wednesday night here at C/R, winning approximately 15 of them.
 
Are you saying 65 cents a race, and 86 cents, a win, constitutes a junk motor?
 
Here's the results from this past Wednesday's Retro Hawk GTP race.
 
Look at best race lap times.
 
Five of the racers ran a top 26 lap heat (actually Lee ran a fairly rare 27).
 
20171119_182436-1.jpg

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#110 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:24 PM

:D  Sarcasm alert  :wacko2:
 
Yeah... run a sealed conventional rebuildable motor and have an authorized motor refurb program. That should work out real well.
 
See HERE, too:

Oh hell... just go to the IRRA® forum and look at every motor discussion thread. The fact that most are locked says a lot. :dash2:
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#111 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:36 PM

I help a lot of racers at the track and put in a lot of Retro Hawks for them. I find that they want me to change the motor and use the old pinion and crown gears that are beat to heck. I say to them,"You want me to put a new motor in with these old crappy gears?"

 

Why would you do that? The bad gear mesh is going to kill the can bushing and the motor won't be any better than what was already in there. If you're going to put a new motor in, do it right and you will be happy with the results. New gears are usually good for a tenth!


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#112 Gator Bob

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:38 PM

If anyone says the motors are 'crappy,' the answer is always the racing is close. :scratch_one-s_head: :fool:

 

That's a diversion tactic commonly used lately. Then it's the buyers fault the motors are 'crappy' because he ____ ______ . 

Even if the A Main was an eight-way tie the motors still are 'crappy'... with brushes installed wrong.  

 

Simple logic and facts prevail.

 

:secret: Did you hear A Mainers are free reving their FK motors up to 12 volts?


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Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#113 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:59 PM

The "two-speed" has nothing to do with gears.

#114 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:01 PM

Bob,
 
I showed up at the Brawl Sunday with Blaha to race Can-Am. If I recall there were 52 entries. All racing the same crappy motors. 
 
F1 snobs are always joking about the "crappy" cam in block, pushrod motors  we run in our Stock Cars.
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Sam Levitch
 
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#115 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:36 PM

You guys will have to figure this out. I'm still just learning myself. I'm just one of those mid-pack racers  that enjoys racing toy cars.
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#116 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

Yeah... right :laugh2:

Pretty good 2016-17 Retro East season
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Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#117 Samiam

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:26 PM

Fantasy Raceway? Hmmm... Can you say "Mike Fleming"? :sarcastic_hand:
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Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#118 old & gray

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:40 PM

... with brushes installed wrong.

 
Disclaimer – I built my own motor program for Group 12 wing cars and my results were above average in two USRA series. My statements are based on that experience.
 
When building a C-can motor the brush hoods are aligned, the brushes are radiused by hand, and the diameter of the commutator is cut by hand. The size of the brush radius and the comm diameter are very close so the amount of break-in is minimal.
 
The current motors use a cut on the commutator which is close to a hand cut, the brushes have a sintered face which is less desirable than hand cut and not as precise, and the alignment is controlled by the length of the brush arms and the mounting at each end (not very precise).
 
The brushes need to seat and the brushes need to be able to compensate for all the deviations from the tolerances in manufacture. If you start with a two-point contact you will have a better chance to reach the “full radius” than starting with two radii in tangent contact.
 
While the brushes appear to be “wrong way around” it is quite possibly the manufacturer making the best of the available manufacturing tolerances.
Bob Schlain

#119 Gator Bob

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 01:42 AM

Personally... I use the term 'wrong way' as it applies to slot racing performance motors realizing this is not a mistake made millions of times over.
 
In my opinion... It could be for its effect on longevity not performance. If these are used in power mirrors I would think the brushes (on the driver side) might be almost seated when it hits the crusher.

For homeset 1/32, other battery hobby, power mirrors, personal products are more its intended use and function as intended. If it was right for the application the buyer wouldn't have to stick it in water to wear half of it's life away to run good. I say 'how bizarre' to do this to six or more motors at a clip to find a raceable one.

How does that level the playing field or save racers money?

Planned obsolesce does not serve the racer well, it serves the importer/distributor and the manufacturer. 
 
As far as the which radius orientation I'm not seeing how you get a full radius faster or better with the two point theory. Consider with the two point the comm plates are worn more at the outer edges by the time that mis-orientated face radius finally makes its way to the comm plate. The comm wears in an arc instead of across the face evenly. If the radius of the brush is tighter than the comm dia brushes will 'mess up' things, fill the slots faster but would still break in more even
 
Consider... how vintage square faced brushes break in. 
 
Just sayin'.
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#120 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 03:58 AM

A motor that comes from the manufacturer with non-serviceable brushes installed in the wrong direction is junk in my opinion. You guys can talk all day about close racing but that doesn’t fix the two-speed issues.

#121 glueside

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:50 AM

Oh my god - this is insane!!! All the bashing, fingerpointing, opinions, and plain BS. If you don't like something shut up and get the hell out of slot cars. 

 

What the hell, it is a $13 motor - you all think that it should run like a Ferrari, well it isn't going to and it won't no matter what you do to it.


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#122 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:57 AM

There are better motors for about the same price that don’t have these problems. And regardless of the price, that doesn’t fix the problem.

#123 Samiam

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:57 AM

Kevin,

 

I don't like these crappy "Bic" motors either. But I like racing. I deal with it and appreciate the posts here from racers with helpful suggestions. 

 

Why don't you promote a class of racing at Fantasy that uses the PS 4002FK? Or even unsealed, built PDs? Or built C-Cans? Or built D-Cans? Let us know when you got it all put together. 


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Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#124 MarkH

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:44 AM

So the situation appears to be:

1) No matter the motor configuration (closed can, sealed endbell), parity will not be achieved regardless of price point with mass-produced motors
2) Cheaper motors are better to sort through to find the cherries
3) Most do not want to build motors due to time, tools. or skills. Probably time more than the others.
 
While frustrating it is what we have. Would I rather pay $25 for a motor that is reasonably consistent in performance if I only had to buy the motors needed to race my cars, you bet. But I fear it would still come down to buying several motors trying to find the bullet based on other motor conversations (complaints). At what price point is it acceptable to buy motors in batches to find an advantage over our competition? For some we are there now. Would it be better if these motors were in the $5 range? Sure, if it only takes buying 10 to find the jewel. But those who are already spending $130 to find that best motor will now be able to sort through 26 motors instead of 10. The motor cost remains the same.
 
I really just do not see any resolution coming from this other than someone with the means to deliver parity motors regardless of price.
 
Just thinking out loud...
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#125 tonyp

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:53 AM

Regardless of the cost no one can produce electric hobby motors that all run exactly the same, too many variables. Even the brushless motors for R/C my company makes cost way more than a brushed motor to produce. These have eliminated brushes from the equation but still do not all run the same.

I’d rather spend $13 each to find a fast one than $50. It’s been a search for that magic bullet since slot cars started 50 years ago. The sealed no-tamper motor regardless of its issues is keeping slots alive and has built Retro into the great stable racing class it is.
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