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#1 Geary Carrier

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:07 AM

Finally getting around to putting a big block together...

 

The armature was re-shafted with a 2.3mm M2 drill blank.

037.JPG

 

Then coated with heat fused epoxy in a fluid bed and cured in the ole toaster oven.

001.JPG

009.JPG

 

Gonna stuff this in a Cox Nascar.

021.JPG

020.JPG

 

Winding fixture and Comm Brazer are finished so it's on to winding (#25 single).

 

Guess I will need to come up with something to hold the brushes.

 

To be continued...


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#2 munter

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 03:05 AM

I like that epoxy coating


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#3 munter

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 03:05 AM

Impressive comm as well


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#4 havlicek

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 06:09 AM

Now yer talkin!  :D


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#5 olescratch

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:50 AM

Big block looking good so far, more please! 


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#6 SlotStox#53

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 12:02 PM

Impressive start to a big block :D
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#7 Lone Wolf

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:06 PM

Very cool so far. 

 

Here is the brush spring method I prefer on these types of endbells.

 

DSC09492.JPG

 

You can also use the "Pittman" style fiber "t's" with spring but that is weaker and a little frustrating to get installed.

 

Of course, if you go with this style make sure the spring is insulated from the brushes. 

 

Lastly, if there is not one in there you may want to consider a bearing in the bell.

 


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Joe Lupo


#8 havlicek

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 04:13 PM

Joe's suggestion regarding the spring is...or should be a definite Geary.  The little fiber "T's" are really fragile and a PIA to install, but even more importantly, that setup doesn't offer nearly enough spring pressure, even for a mild wind.  For this motor, the ONLY way to go is with Joe's suggestion.


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#9 Geary Carrier

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 05:54 PM

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the kind comments and suggestions...

 

We will see what happens as this motor evolves, got a good chunk of work to go.

 

 

g


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#10 Geary Carrier

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:30 AM

Attempt at first pole...

 

I realize I can't see good enough, gotta fix that.

007.JPG

004.JPG

002.JPG

 

This is harder than it looks on TV.

Nothing that a little persistence can't fix...

 

g


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#11 olescratch

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:12 AM

Looks good to me.  How many turns did you do?  You mentioned your com welder, do you use the same method as John H?


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#12 Geary Carrier

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:28 AM

Hi John,

 

I didn't even count the turns as I went, just wanted to get a feel for the winding and see how things worked.

 

Yes I use the same welding method as John H.

 

 

Thanks,

g


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#13 olescratch

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:34 AM

I recall seeing a winder similar to that one before, how did it work?


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#14 Mark Johnson

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 03:27 AM

NICE!!!!


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#15 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:43 AM

Very nice Geary!  A lot of folks mention wanting to get into this, but very few actually do!  Just some things to consider (I know I'm probably repeating myself)

1)The first, and to a lesser degree the second, layers will greatly determine how the whole coil comes out.  Use a good amount of tension on the wire as you make each turn...more on the bottom layers and a little less as you get near the top to avoid the coil collapsing.  Tension is as important as anything.

2)Don't be afraid to waste wire.  Getting a handle on how to wind up with the number of turns you want...how to "pattern" the wind is important.  Once you figure out a pattern, write notes and try to duplicate that on the two subsequent poles.  In other words, "10 turns/first layer, one turn behind" would mean, when you come back on top of the first layer towards the shaft/com, go one turn PAST where you started.  BTW, that one turn past the starting turn is how you can help strengthen the first layer's turns and help to keep them from spreading apart because of pressure from the layers above.

3)Try to be aware of how far "out" from the poles (how "fat") your coils are. With some laminations like the Mabuchis, and even more so the old Mura .007 lams, you can get through the first two poles and have a devil of a time fitting your coil on the third/last pole.

4)In general, "stacking" the coil layers so the winds on top sit "between" the winds below will give you consistent, sturdy and neat poles.  While you CAN go past the ends of the winds below back at the shaft end of each layer, try and avoid doing that out by the crown end.

5)Try and work your coil patterns so the number of turns you're going after leaves you back at...or near the shaft/com and not out at the crown.

6)Consistency is actually more important than "beauty".  Even if the coils don't "look" gorgeous, having electrically and physically consistent coils will generally produce a better armature than one that looks great, but where there are significant differences between the poles.  Some awfully "ugly" armatures run surprisingly well, and some "beauties" run like doody.  Good-looking coils MIGHT be a measure of consistency because it can be easier to duplicate a nice coil on the other poles.  Good looking coils MIGHT also be more stable physically but, tensioning and how you handle the ends of the coil layers (at the shaft end and the crown end) will make for more solid coils than don't tend to fall apart.  Epoxy isn't always enough to prevent the coils from shifting around if you don't go for physically stable coils.

7)The Kirkwood/Champion com you're using is a good one for the big Mabuchis.  They're old at this point though, so make sure the com tabs are clean before welding or soldering.  Any old corrosion on there may change the conductivity of the tabs and each pole.

***You're doing great!


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#16 Geary Carrier

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:03 AM

Hi John,

 

Thanks for the winding info, I will add this to all the other info of yours that I've been following...

 

 

Thank you much,

g


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#17 Lone Wolf

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:07 PM

If you do not have one of Johns arms on hand pick one up for inspiration. True Jewelry.

 

Getting advice on winding from John is like getting hitting advice from Babe Ruth.

 

Simply the best out there. 


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#18 Geary Carrier

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:33 PM

 

I recall seeing a winder similar to that one before, how did it work?

 

The winder clamp holds the armature between the crown tips on the side opposite the one you're winding. You just tighten the two hex head bolts evenly against each other and the jaws expand to lock the armature in place.

Door Motor 031.jpg


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#19 Half Fast

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:52 PM

Geary-
 
How did you get the epoxy not to stick to the shaft?
 
Cheers

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#20 Geary Carrier

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:08 PM

Hi Bill,

 

In this instance I slipped silicone tubing over each end of the shaft right up to the brass spacers and then dipped in the fluid bed of epoxy powder. Just remove the tubing from the shaft before curing and you're good to go.

 

 

Thanks,

g


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#21 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:11 PM

Geary, you're taking winding to another level here...by using a clamp YOU designed and built.  Now that's what I call cool!


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John Havlicek

#22 olescratch

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:48 PM

Bringing true meaning to DIY or try!  Will you be removing the powder coating from the arm after winding, if so, how?


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#23 Geary Carrier

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:22 AM

 

Will you be removing the powder coating from the arm after winding, if so, how?

 

 I will sand off the epoxy leaving a minimal amount on the armature OD. The remainder will be removed when the armature OD is ground true before dynamic balancing.


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#24 Geary Carrier

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:05 AM

Put a 9mm oilite from a Mabuchi 380 in the Nascar can. Left the oilite full size figuring more oil capacity couldn't hurt.

050.JPG

 

Sliced a bearing and retainer from the can end of the same 380 on the right side. On the left side is the can end of a 360 Mabuchi for a sort of before and after view.

061.JPG

 

Here is the sliced bearing and retainer that will be mounted to the end bell. Should provide a bit of extra cooling and will be removable for bearing replacement down the road.

054.JPG

 

 

Thanks,

g

 

 


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#25 havlicek

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 06:33 AM

Those new Mabuchi oilites are THE way to go Geary.  Not only are they a much better fit for the shaft than the original bushings, but they will wear better also, as they are made from a tougher material than some other oilites.  Having them on both ends of the motor can only be a good thing.


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#26 Geary Carrier

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 01:14 AM

A bit cleaner, switching directions from left to right is interesting to say the least...

001.JPG

002.JPG

005.JPG

 


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#27 havlicek

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 05:50 AM

Nice!


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#28 olescratch

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 07:20 PM

Looking good the first time to me, even better now.


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#29 Geary Carrier

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 12:38 AM

This is the initial mockup of the oilite bearing with retainer to the end bell, alignment will be finalized with the magnets installed.

001.JPG

 

Just ran an end mill through the original bearing center line.

011.JPG

 

You can see the big difference in size from the original bearing.

014.JPG

008.JPG

 

 


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#30 Geary Carrier

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 05:52 PM

Finally got the three poles wound and now on to the brazing business. This was wound with a continuous piece of wire for the second and third poles after the initial pole was wound as it was easier to do so at this point in time, (laziness).

 

Following John's nomenclature, I believe this is a 25/22 (6 and 1 behind). Which means (I think) 22 turns of #25, 6 turns on the first layer with 1 reinforcing turn back at the shaft.

029.JPG

025.JPG

016.JPG

 


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#31 havlicek

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 06:39 PM

Looks great Geary.  22T of #25 should haul the beans alright.  One thing though, it sure looks as though the wires haven't been stripped where they pass over/around the com tabs.  If this is the case, the insulation is going to cause problems, even with the heat of brazing.  The heat will turn the insulation basically into carbon and other burnt stuff which will make the conductance of each coil wildly different.  Even so, the arm looks right there!

PS, there's nothing wrong at all with using a single piece of wire if you can still use the same wind patterns on each pole.  In fact, it just might be a stronger way to have at this.  On many winds, the wire hanging down off the com tab can cause difficulty getting the same number of turns on the first layer because of the slight offset it can cause.


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#32 olescratch

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:04 PM

Looking good.  If nothing else, you're giving it a damn good try.  BTW, I think the normal/common method in stating the wind puts the number of turns before the size of the wire.  So you're 25/22 would be 22/25, making it more like others (just my .02%)! 


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#33 Geary Carrier

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:38 AM

Thanks guys...


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#34 havlicek

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:59 AM

There's an old thing about the magnet wire Geary.  Some of the earliest stuff could be soldered without stripping the insulation first.  I was told way back then not to do that, because even though it might work, the motor wouldn't run as well.  The modern wire's insulation is MUCH tougher, and even the higher heat of brazing will leave a carbon residue between the wire and the com tab it sits on.  Anyway, the arm DOES look great, and it would have been a shame to have got this far and have it not run well!


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#35 Samiam

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:52 AM

Geary,

The arm looks great. Neat winds.

 

As John said, you've gone this far. Might as well try to strip the wires before brazing. Can you slip them off the tabs and carefully strip off the insulation?


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#36 zipper

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 11:08 AM

Beginning 1970's the hi-temp polythermalese wires did need scratching, I tried to burn with a lighter and the result wasn't too good needing sanding/scraping still. The earlier ML or Belden wires were easier to handle.


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#37 Geary Carrier

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 11:20 AM

Gentlemen,

 

 

There's an old thing about the magnet wire Geary.  Some of the earliest stuff could be soldered without stripping the insulation first.  I was told way back then not to do that, because even though it might work, the motor wouldn't run as well.  The modern wire's insulation is MUCH tougher, and even the higher heat of brazing will leave a carbon residue between the wire and the com tab it sits on.  Anyway, the arm DOES look great, and it would have been a shame to have got this far and have it not run well!

 

John, I will strip the wire insulation first before brazing, I was just excited that the winding went fairly well and showed pictures of the initial winding results. I appreciate your concern and comments.

 

 

The arm looks great. Neat winds.

 

As John said, you've gone this far. Might as well try to strip the wires before brazing. Can you slip them off the tabs and carefully strip off the insulation?

 

Sam, as this was the first armature I was not exactly sure when and how the wire would be stripped but it will be stripped and we will see how the brazing goes.

 

 

Thanks,

g


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#38 Geary Carrier

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 12:13 AM

Got the brazing finished. Kevlar and epoxy is up next.

035.JPG

034.JPG

 


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#39 olescratch

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 12:21 AM

What did you do to remove the insulation from the wires?  It seems to have worked, welds look good.  Can you show your welding set-up, equipment?


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#40 Geary Carrier

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 12:43 AM

 

What did you do to remove the insulation from the wires?  It seems to have worked, welds look good.  Can you show your welding set-up, equipment?

John, I just cut the wrapped wires on the comm tab from the bottom side of the tab and removed them, then scraped off the enamel coating with the back of an x-acto blade.

 

I don't have pictures of the welding set-up yet but it is pretty much a copy of John Havlicek's.

 

 

Thanks,

g


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#41 havlicek

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 06:50 AM

BOOM!  Nice job Geary.  Since I first started all this again, I've been trying to inspire folks to give it all a whirl.  As far as I can tell, you've gone further than anyone else I know of.  The wind looks great, the welds look great!


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#42 SlotStox#53

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 02:15 PM

Looks the part! Great job :D
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#43 havlicek

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 04:04 PM

This is exactly what you're looking for when brazing.  The joints should look like a good (low temp) solder joint, with good flow of the brazing metal.  The only difference here is that the poles should measure either dead-on or within a thousandth of an ohm or so.  If not, you go back, add a bit more silver (or the silver/flux paste) and hit the pole again with the heat.  That *usually* cures any resistance discrepancies PDQ.  The last thing that will cure a slight difference in resistance readings is, of course, to cut the com.  Getting rid of whatever burnt junk is one there brings everything into sharp focus.  

***So, you're looking for a good "mechanically sound" connection (ie: strong) as well as an "electrically sound" one (ie: as close to "perfect" conductivity as possible).  Silver alloy brazing alloys are excellent conductors, as good or better than the copper itself, but that itty bitty point where the copper magnet wire meets the copper com tabs can either make or break an otherwise good arm.  Geary's pictures tell the tale!


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#44 Geary Carrier

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 05:00 PM

 

***So, you're looking for a good "mechanically sound" connection (ie: strong) as well as an "electrically sound" one (ie: as close to "perfect" conductivity as possible).  Silver alloy brazing alloys are excellent conductors, as good or better than the copper itself, but that itty bitty point where the copper magnet wire meets the copper com tabs can either make or break an otherwise good arm.  Geary's pictures tell the tale!

Hi John,

 

My initial brazing attempts were done this last summer and I was having problems with the, silver/flux paste, it wouldn't flow properly. Had the same problems this time so I used some low temp brazing flux and that seemed to work better. I still need to refine the fixturing and process but I'm reasonably close and I'm satisfied with the first armature to be brazed. I don't have a milliohm meter yet so I will need to get one or make an adapter for a standard ohm meter. I greatly appreciate you posting all your work on rewinding, I only made 10 mistakes instead of 100 mistakes...

 

 

Thanks,

g


Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#45 olescratch

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 08:00 PM

Just to see someone else stepping into the deep waters of motor building is an inspiration in itself.  Keep on posting your progress, we need it.  BTW, did you have any loud pops while welding, that seems to send me to look for something else to do in a hurry lol.  Thinking of putting on some headphones, tuning in some classic rock, and give it another try!  


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John Stewart

#46 Geary Carrier

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:06 PM

 

Just to see someone else stepping into the deep waters of motor building is an inspiration in itself.  Keep on posting your progress, we need it.  BTW, did you have any loud pops while welding, that seems to send me to look for something else to do in a hurry lol.  Thinking of putting on some headphones, tuning in some classic rock, and give it another try!

John,

If everything is clean and you are making good contact with the ground and gouging rod tip to comm tab there should be no loud pops. I've had some pops and it was always something not being clean or making good contact and that equates to a high resistance that leads to a high current surge or pop.  I'm using 14 gauge Romex for wiring as a small current limiter and it seems to work if you slip as it doesn't vaporize tabs and wires.

 

Thanks,

g


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#47 Geary Carrier

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 12:09 AM

Kevlar, epoxy tomorrow...

004.JPG

006.JPG


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Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#48 havlicek

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:20 AM

 

 

I'm using 14 gauge Romex for wiring as a small current limiter and it seems to work if you slip as it doesn't vaporize tabs and wires.

 

One way to help prevent accidental arcs and destroying an arm is to use a power supply that can deliver enough current at very low voltage.  When I  was cobbling together my brazing setup, I went looking for power supplies that could deliver a lot of current at the lowest voltage and it got kray-zee.  The car-starter thing I landed on was the cheapest solution I could find, but no doubt it isn't ideal.  I don't know what the minimum current necessary for doing this stuff is (a variable supply and some testing would be great to get to some numbers), but from what web-surfing I did back then, it seems that the lowest possible voltage and enough current (*whatever that is) is what to aim for.

Mastech makes and sells a bunch of bench/lab type supplies for pretty cheap (*they even have a section for "slot car power supplies"!), and they might be a place to look.  I don't usually vaporize com tabs any more...but it took me a long while to get "pretty confident", and the possibility is always there :)


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John Havlicek

#49 wbugenis

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:23 AM

There are a lot of welders and diy welders out there because because they are being used to build e - bike batteries:

 

 

 

Geary, I have several used BK Precision 875B  meters like the one John uses if you need a meter.

You will need to make a little fixture like the one John has.

PM me if interested.

 

Great progress on the arms!!!


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William Bugenis

#50 olescratch

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:58 PM

OK!  Now I have another element to look at.  I haven't been cleaning the coms prior to winding, this may be my turning point.  I'm still gonna turn on some classic rock though, minus the headphones lol!


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John Stewart





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