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New Mossetti Retro Can-Am kit


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#1 Half Fast

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:48 PM

Here is a photo (via Facebook) of the new Retro kit.
 
Note the spring steel "guide tongue spacer"; a question arises as to its legality under IRRA® Rules.

 

24059128_794916130713364_5102146254041745611_n.jpg


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Bill Botjer

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#2 Bud Greene

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:51 PM

Nice, I want one.



#3 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:35 PM

 

Here is a photo (via FB) of the new Retro kit.
 
Note the spring steel "guide tongue spacer" a question arises as to its legality under IRRA® Rules will be making an official statement

 

It's been brought to our attention and we will be making an official statement.

 

Not legal, if soldered on as shown.

 

Originally the rule stated that the "guide tongue" was only the component that could be sheet steel.

 

In 2016, we made an announcement and added guide brace and doubler in the description of the allowed component, since the multi-level/stepped/coined piece JK, R-Geo and myself sell, is typically referred to as a guide brace.

 

The doubler piece is meant to just be a standoff, and allowed as a coined steel guide tongue is allowed.

 

For the doubler shown in the pic to be considered legal, it can't extend beyond the dimensions of the steel guide tongue; it "doubles."


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#4 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:54 PM

For that doubler to be legal, it would need to have the ears trimmed off.

The guide tongue could also be remade to have ears, to match the doubler, but the overall width, for the laminated piece, could not exceed the 1" max width allowed.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#5 Half Fast

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:08 PM

Would it be legal if made of brass instead of steel?

 

Cheers,


Bill Botjer

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#6 Tim Neja

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:14 PM

Yes.


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#7 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:37 PM

Like Tim said, yes, of course, it could be made from brass, as wide as it is, or wider (as long as it didn't bend back and somehow become main rails)


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#8 Racer36

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:58 AM

Rules are rules, but can you explain the rationale behind it, Mike?


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#9 tonyp

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:37 AM

We wanted to limit what would be allowed to be made in spring steel to keep guys from having to work with it.
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#10 Racer36

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:20 AM

Thanks, Tony.

 

Makes sense.


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#11 tonyp

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:11 AM

Plus we never wanted the class to morph into spring steel chassis.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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#12 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:58 AM

It's like they want to build a kit but don't take time to read the rules first.

 

Nice enough looking kit if you just throw out the guide shim and replace it with a block of brass.


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#13 kvanpelt

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:25 AM

I thought that brace was a good idea since a lot of builders solder a piece of piano wire along the front edge of the nose piece anyway for added stiffness.

 

Some of us not so good drivers still manage to hit things and need that added protection.


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#14 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:43 AM

It's like they want to build a kit but don't take time to read the rules first.

 

Nice enough looking kit if you just throw out the guide shim and replace it with a block of brass.

 

We are always available to answer a question on legality.

 

The "amusing" part of this, is that the manufacturer, in the Facebook discussion on this matter, tries to define our descriptions of components and function as if he was the one who has spent countless hours, creating, and refining the rules.

 

I thought that brace was a good idea since a lot of builders solder a piece of piano wire along the front edge of the nose piece anyway for added stiffness.

 

Some of us not so good drivers still manage to hit things and need that added protection.

 

Yes, and racers can still solder that piano wire across, like they have, the last 10+ years.

 

The fact that no one had done anything like that, before, with sheet steel, should have been a good indicator that it was not legal to do.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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#15 Milkman

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:39 PM

I agree with you, Mike. There's always someone who "pushes" the rules, but a manufacturer should confirm the legality of their new products to avoid controversy/issues.


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#16 Cheater

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:55 PM

The initial concept for IRRA® chassis rules, at least from my perspective, was to define an 'envelope' within which builders and designers could innovate. Yes, there's always someone who either ignores the carefully-crafted rules or who wants to operate outside of the envelope.

 

I wish racers could know the number of hours the people who created IRRA® expended on crafting the rules.

 

I've been claiming that the IRRA® chassis rules are the first time in the history of model car racing a non-spec scratchbuilt chassis class has been defined. If I am wrong, point me to where it has occurred before. Sure, there were no chassis rules in the beginning but I can't think of another slot car rules set that defines a limited form of scratchbuilt chassis.


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#17 Samiam

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 03:38 PM

I've been claiming that the IRRA® chassis rules are the first time in the history of model car racing a non-spec scratchbuilt chassis class has been defined. If I am wrong, point me to where it has occurred before.

Early Int-15 Wing car chassis were scratchbuilt from wire,brass and steel. Only the nose could be steel and it's dimensions were limited like the current IRRA rules. 


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#18 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 04:43 PM

The limiting dimension on the steel nose on an I15 chassis was how far it could go back.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#19 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:36 PM

Hi All

 

Can I get some of your thoughts on this revised Guide Plate Doubler. Thank you

Attached Images

  • mossetti racing 1 inch guide doubler.jpg

Ernie Mossetti


#20 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:45 PM

From my post #4;

 

"The guide tongue could also be remade to have ears, to match the doubler, but the overall width, for the laminated piece, could not exceed the 1" max width allowed."

 

So the guide tongue would have to be recut to match that piece(with, of course the part in front of it, to hold the guide shoe, added)


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#21 tonyp

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:45 PM

The rules specify a steel tongue dimensions. That is not a steel tongue but a spacer. If brass it would be legal but as a steel spacer it is not. To use a steel spacer under guide tongue it would have to be no bigger than the tongue itself.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#22 tonyp

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:47 PM

Or done as suggested by Mike Swiss.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
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ip


#23 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:30 PM

Can this be ok then ?

Attached Images

  • mossetti racing retro guideholder and doubler.jpg

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Ernie Mossetti


#24 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:40 PM

Yes, terrific.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#25 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:44 PM

Thank you


Ernie Mossetti


#26 Half Fast

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:03 PM

You might want to consider selling the revised guide/spacer separately.

 

Cheers


Bill Botjer

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#27 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:13 PM

Two versions of the kits will be available:


Ernie Mossetti


#28 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:14 PM

MR5001 Will have the originally designed Tongue and Guide doubler

MR5001 Will have the ones pictured above


Ernie Mossetti


#29 tonyp

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:15 PM

You should note in instructions that the arms can not be cut off tongue and left on spacer.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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ip


#30 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:24 PM

MR5001 Will have the originally designed Tongue and Guide doubler
MR5001 Will have the ones pictured above

Ernie,
You show the same stock # for both types.

Also, just curious, what Retro org does/will allow the original version?

IE-here's Retro rules. I don't see where in their rules where it would be allowed.


RETRO Can Am Rules©
​ Effective January 1, 2017
Chassis- Are to be scratchbuilt from the listed materials or kits.
Allowed Materials are Brass in sheet, rod and tube forms. Bronze rod for
chassis main rails/rails. Steel in piano/music wire, pin tube(s). Steel guide
holders are allowed but can not exceed a max width of 1" ( 25.4 mm )
and be no longer than 1 1/2" ( 38.1 mm ) in length. No other materials
allowed in chassis construction.
Chassis are to be inline drive type. Motor shaft must be 90 degrees to the rear
axle. No offset motors allowed. The motor shaft is to be on the centerline of
the chassis.
Floating pin tubes are allowed. Steel parts cut from Flexi type chassis are not
allowed.
Chassis must have a three sided and one piece rear motor bracket with a
minimum height of .200" in the areas between the motor mount and
bushing/bearing/tube areas . Bracket width is open. No cut and soldered
rear brackets allowed. The motor must be supported by the bracket and the
bracket extend to touch the rear axle bushings/bearings/tube(s). The motor must
be soldered or screwed to the bracket.
Keyed or Snap type chassis construction is not allowed. Chassis
Main Rails of round steel wire or round brass rod/tubing may be
ground/sanded a maximum of 20% of the wire diameter and must be ground/sanded
on the bottom side of the wire and chassis only. No flat or strip type rails
allowed. Chassis Main Rails must connect the front of the chassis to the rear
motor bracket. No Pan type or one piece type chassis allowed. The bottom
surface of the chassis and motor must be straight and flat in all directions (
front to rear and side to side ) with no sagging or drooping or bowing parts
below the chassis main rails. This will be checked with a straight edge ruler.
All hinged movements must be oriented in one and the same
direction excluding the drop arm. Shaker pans are allowed. Centerline hinges
are not allowed.
Maximum chassis width is 3 1/8" ( 79.38 mm

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#31 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:39 PM

oops. Second one should read MR5002


Ernie Mossetti


#32 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:40 PM

I don't see anything in the SCRRA rules either that would allow it;

 

CA2. Chassis construction
CA2a. Materials: Brass sheet, rod and tubing, steel wire, and guide tongues are allowed. Other than flat guide tongues, stamped steel parts, EDM or laser-cut parts of any material are not allowed unless submitted by the manufacturer and approved by the SCRRA board.   Stamped steel guide tongues no longer than 1 1/2" and no wider than 1" are allowed.  Maximum solid wire diameter used in any part of the chassis construction is 1/8". The use of components removed from flexi car chassis's are not allowed with the exception of the stamped guide tongues.

CA2b. Inline drive only, with the motor on center and shaft at 90 degrees to the rear axle as seen from above. A one-piece, three-sided brass-sheet motor bracket forming the rear axle carrier is mandatory. Motors may be soldered in.
CA2c. All hinged movements must be oriented in only one direction. Center-line hinges are not allowed.
No chassis movement, dynamic or induced, may extend the overall chassis width to more than 3.125".
CA2d. Axles: Both axles must be of solid 3/32" minimum diameter steel rod. A single straight, one-piece front axle is required, carrying both front wheels. The axle may be fixed or in a tube. Flats can only be ground on axles for wheels or gear setscrews.
CA2e: Guide flag must be centered on the longitudinal axis of the chassis. No sideways "free float" or offset is allowed.

CA2f: Front-axle holder construction:
Uprights fitting inside slots cut in the chassis by any process are not allowed, but if an obvious effort has been made to construct something beyond the tab in slot assembly a consideration will be made. Vertical sheet-brass pillow block uprights may be soldered to the sides of the main part of the chassis that holds the guide tongue, again if an obvious effort has been made at reinforcement.  No flat, stand alone, vertical, sheet metal pillow blocks or tabs are allowed.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#33 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:41 PM

Cutting off the ears of the Guide Doubler in the MR5001 kit would make it legal in IRRA and SCRRA


Ernie Mossetti


#34 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:45 PM

Got it.

 

FWIW, the other 2 orgs don't mention a 2nd piece of steel allowed.

 

We only did as of that 2016 announcement.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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#35 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:50 PM

I may have to make some Brass Guide Doublers then


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#36 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:52 PM

Nice24831371_798782300326747_673970929916904957_o.jpg
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Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

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#37 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:53 PM

Top24883254_798781986993445_5352692476013425771_o.jpg
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Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta


#38 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:55 PM

I may have to make some Brass Guide Doublers then

Or check with Ron and Bryan Warmack.

 

When your chassis came out, as our FB conversation indicated, I didn't remember us mentioning/adding a doubler in that 2016 announcement.

 

The BOD agreed to allow it, regardless, as long as it matched a legal sized, flat guide tongue.


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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#39 Mike Patterson

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:34 PM

What's the thickness of the brass, or did I miss something?


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#40 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:10 PM

.040 I believe

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#41 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:40 PM

   We're not too technical out here on the West Coast.  As long as the steel spacer/doubler was no wider than 1" (Ernie's pic in post #19)  it would be legal with the SCRRA.

   

    Great looking kit!  I'll have Debby at BPR order some!   :good:


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#42 bbr

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:54 PM

sub wire pans for brass pans! another chassis for the king!  :D


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#43 Dallas Racer

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:17 AM

Nice chassis. I especially like that motor bracket. :good:


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#44 MSwiss

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:34 AM

We're not too technical out here on the West Coast.

Good news, Bryan.

Just in time for X-mas, C/R has come out with the 'All-in-one, SCRRA Tech Tool'. Lol

280080_p_wipo.jpg

PS-I got the check for the motor clips.
Thanks.

Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#45 Greg Erskine

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:49 AM

The motor bracket has 5 sides which does not conform to my reading of the rules.



#46 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:59 AM

  Mike,

       If they are calibrated please send 2.............We always lose one!  :laugh2:


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#47 MSwiss

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:04 AM

Greg,
Someone else PM'ed me with that info.

While it doesn't conform to the RETRO or SCRRA rules, it does conform to IRRA® rules;

3. Chassis Construction: 3a. Each car must have a one-piece brass rear bracket consisting of at least three sides (vertical or horizontal), with each connected side having a minimum width or height of at least .200".

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#48 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 09:51 AM

.040 I believe

Yes.


Ernie Mossetti


#49 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 09:54 AM

If that is .040 brass how heavy is that chassis?


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#50 mrslotcar.ca

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 10:48 AM

Eddie .The assembled car in the above pictures weighs 60,5 grams - Bearings and Fronts installed


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