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2-degree tilt for guide flag


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#1 SlowBeas

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:18 PM

I'm curious to hear how you create the 2-degree tilt in your guide flag.

 

I seem to recall sometime ago that there was a suggestion to place a metal washer under the guide flag to cause it to tilt, but that's still kind of a guess.

 

Thoughts? I'd welcome ideas.

jb


Jim Beasley
South Carolina, USA

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#2 Pablo

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:28 PM

3 suggestions:

-order a 2 degree tongue from Swiss. I think he has more than one type.

-watch the Steube video. I'm surprized you haven't done that long ago. Keith Tanaka has them.

-look at some of my step by step IRRA® chassis builds where I make my own tongue using the Steube method.


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#3 Mark Wampler

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:30 PM

I like 5 degrees or so.  Washers under the guide only increase the depth of the guide.  You have to physically make an upward rake on the guide tongue.  That is up for discussion.   A good pair of pliers on a flexi.  Be sure to place tape on the jaws so you don't deface the tongue surfaces.  On a Retro, there are ways to do that.  Most  guide tongues have a built in upward angle, but the angle is put in place before soldering the tongue.


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You can quote me.

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#4 Pablo

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:36 PM

Whoops, I missed the fact Jim didn't post this in "Retro Racing".

So we don't really know why he needs a tilt. Maybe he's talking about, well, never mind. We don't know. Jim? :)


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#5 slotcarone

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:40 PM

I take the guide tongue and put it in the vise and bend it with pliers. Then solder it flat on the front pan. Never had any problems. Or buy a 2 degree from Swiss.
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#6 Alan Dodson

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 04:12 PM

If you are trying to adjust the guide angle on a flexi car chassis or any car with a coined guide tongue, the best way to do it is with a tool made for that purpose. RGEO and Triggerman both make them and I'm sure there are some others. PCH carries the Triggerman version. Both of these consist of a steel rod about 1/2" diameter and 6 to 8 inches long. one end is drilled and tapped for a small bolt. Screw the bolt through your guide tongue and into the steel rod. When it's tight, you can set the chassis on a setup block and actually see the guide tilt by the angle of the steel rod. The length of the rod also gives you plenty of leverage to bend the tongue to your liking. I use a 3/16" bolt with a nut and a couple of flat washers to do roughly the same thing. I will slide a length of 7/32" brass tubing over the bolt to get the extra length and to keep from harming the threads in case I need to resort to pliers to bend the tongue. Some of the new flexi car chassis are made from some very strong stuff! Like Mark, I like 4 or 5 degrees of angle because the chassis usually has a couple degrees of rake already. Sorry I went a little long, hope it helps!


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#7 Zippity

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 04:25 PM

I have a Triggerman tool and set my guides to a 3.745° angle :)


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#8 Samiam

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 04:46 PM

Ron,

Isn't the recommended angle for your club's flat track 3.740°.? :D


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#9 Zippity

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 04:54 PM

:wink2:

 

 

To type the ° symbol, hold down the Alt key and type 0176 on the numeric key pad :)



#10 Samiam

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:24 PM

°

.'ya learn something new every day. :good: 

 

Post edited.


Sam Levitch
 
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#11 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:34 PM

I've been using the Mike Swiss guide togue and having great results with them.If you are looking for a brand to buy,I   suggest the Swiss guide tongue!



#12 JerseyJohn

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:46 PM

Brian just keep doing whatever you do on the tongue . you damn near win every race LOL


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#13 SlowBeas

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 06:08 PM

Sorry for the lack of details. I have tools needed for adjusting my flexi chassis. So, fortunately, that's not an issue for me.

 

I'm starting on a new scratch-built retro, and although my buddy Don Weaver has graciously offered one of the tongues that Swiss sells, I was wondering what's the best method for making the appropriate amount of rake using a standard tongue.

 

Pablo, if you've demonstrated a method or two that I should read about, maybe I should head over to your section right now! I'll certainly take a long look, as you've offered several solid tips for me in the past.

 

With any luck, I'll have this thing built soon enough and have a photo or two to share.

 

Thanks for the ideas. I'm always appreciative.

jb


Jim Beasley
South Carolina, USA

"Assuming either the Left Wing or the Right Wing gained control of the country, it would probably fly around in circles."
- Pat Paulsen, 1968
"I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol."
- Steven Wright ca. 1983

#14 Cap Henry

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 06:33 PM

A way to do it with a standard Tongue is to stack material, slightly thicker then the nose piece, under the front edge of the Guide Tongue. Someone probably has an exact difference for you but I usually try for around .05
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#15 Pablo

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 06:37 PM

Jim, now that we are sure what you are trying to do, it's easy.

Just watch the Steube video, it's THE primer for retro building.

 

In a nutshell, a tongue placed atop a chunk (nosepiece) of .063 brass will provide the proper height for a standard thickness flag. The answer to your question is, a 5 to 10 thou steel flag spacer placed as shown provides some tilt when soldering the tongue

 

IMG_2537.JPG

 

IMG_2540.JPG

 

IMG_2544.JPG


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#16 Mark Wampler

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 06:46 PM

I build my guide tongues just as the Steube video illustrates.  If I have an .032 head pan,  I will slip an .015 brass plate under the guide at the back of the tongue where it will be soldered to the head pan.  If the head pan is .040, I don’t use the .015 plate.  I don’t bend the tongue.  Its straight when its soldered. Then I take a short stick of .078 wire on the front of the tongue to lift it for the up rake angle.  Its what I prefer and its at least 5 degrees. My typical guide lead is .8 to .9.


You can quote me.

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#17 David Rees

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 10:41 PM

i put a 2 inch long bolt with a nut through the guide hole in the tongue then bend the tongue slightly up at the front. Works a treat. I can see exactly how much bend is happening. .



#18 slotcarone

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:56 AM

Jim  read post number 5 again!! Doesn't get any easier than that and your two pieces are soldered together flat. The main thing is to tin both pieces first, use plenty of acid and make sure you get the heat to transfer. You will know when the pieces become one and the solder flows out the sides.


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#19 SlowBeas

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 09:18 AM

It's been so long since I watched the Steube video (which, BTW, is phenomenal) that I guess I'd forgotten any bit of advice he'd mentioned for tilting guide tongues. I do recall, however, he suggests keeping the center of the tongue's hole about 1/4" from the front of the pan to allow for proper flag movement.

 

Thanks again for the guidance.

jb

 

(BTW, I apparently reached my maximum for the number of quotes I can "like," so I was unable to show my appreciation for some of the comments. No disrespect intended.  :D  )


Jim Beasley
South Carolina, USA

"Assuming either the Left Wing or the Right Wing gained control of the country, it would probably fly around in circles."
- Pat Paulsen, 1968
"I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol."
- Steven Wright ca. 1983

#20 Fast Freddie

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 12:37 PM

Trying to get an upward bend in a Mossetti or even a JK -A or X25 with the coined tongues can be challenging.  If you saw what I used you'd laugh, 3 mini C-style vise grips I got from Harbour Freight.  I use 2 of them to clamp down the front of the chassis and 1 on the guide tongue.  I use an old motor mounting block that has a V cut into it on one end and I let just enough of the guide tongue hang over the center of the V.  The C-style vise grips have small pads that closely match the arc in the guide tongue.  Clamp the chassis just behind the coined area on both sides of the chassis.  The pads on the vise grips will fit on all the chassis it just takes some maneuvering.  The reason I do it this way is so I don't bend the front part of the chassis up which in some cases causes the wire holder to bend down.  Found that out when I bent ( just using the tongue screw by itself) the tongue on my first Mossetti.  If that happens the chassis gives the indication of not sitting flat until you bend the wire holder back up.  When you do that you sometimes lose a portion of the guide tongue bend, it can be a vicious cycle.  Clamp the 3rd vise grip on the guide tongue and bend it however you like.  I remove the clamp on the tongue and install a very long threaded screw and using a protractor check the angle front to back and side to side.  The side to side should be 0 degrees while the front to back should be what ever degrees you want.  You may need to repeat some of these steps to get everything just right.

 

You guys trying to get the 2-5 degrees on the brass 2 piece guide tongues might want to try using feeler gages.  You can get a cheep set from Harbour Freight and with several different thicknesses you can be much more precise on the angle. 


Fred Younkin

#21 Zippity

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 01:37 PM

Chicken clamps?  :D  :D







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