Jump to content




Photo

JK takes another swipe at racers


  • Please log in to reply
319 replies to this topic

#1 Brinkley47

Brinkley47

    A winner is a loser who gave it one more try

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 845 posts
  • Joined: 18-August 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Murfreesboro, TN

Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:34 AM

Why isn't it posted here? JK concluded it is 100% our fault. Who knew we could all be wrong at the same time.

PS: I dont want to use Simple Green to break-in my motor. As racers, we have to use Simple Green in a hand-out race to get them broken-in in time.

 

I never needed Simple Green for an R motor. I could literally put an R motor in the car and break it in. Good luck with that on a 7R.


Will Brinkley
willbrinkley@gmail.com




#2 Racer36

Racer36

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 796 posts
  • Joined: 09-October 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:52 AM

You might want to read the report again. You completely missed what Tim was trying to establish.

 

With all the bitching about motors he has only had two sent back for evaluation... hardly an epidemic, and certainly not enough to come to solid technical conclusions.

 

The Simple Green method works slick as **** if you do it right. He pointed out in very specific terms that some guys are not doing it right and he is correct.

 

Read it again before you get your panties in a knot.


  • Tex, SlowBeas, tonyp and 6 others like this

Dennis Dominey

Lifelong half-assed slot racer


#3 Brinkley47

Brinkley47

    A winner is a loser who gave it one more try

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 845 posts
  • Joined: 18-August 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Murfreesboro, TN

Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:55 AM

You don't race much, do you?

That is the only explanation if you think this is an isolated problem.
  • The Number of likes this
Will Brinkley
willbrinkley@gmail.com

#4 Racer36

Racer36

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 796 posts
  • Joined: 09-October 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:15 AM

I race enough and I supply motors to about a dozen guys. If it is such a huge problem why are guys not sending junkers in for analysis as requested numerous times? How can a manufacturer determine if there is a problem without real evidence. Is he supposed to trust the statements of racers that may or may not be good enough to discern between a bad motor and crappy setup?

I looked through invoices last week and I have purchased 220 RH motors in the last 18 months. Of those one went up in smoke and the endbell "allegedly" fell off another. Is that grounds for screaming about a motor problem? I think not.

I race OCC and Penn-Ohio and I have not been short on motor yet. 

If there is such a problem then send Tim some hard evidence for him to work with.


  • tonyp, Tim Neja, NSwanberg and 3 others like this

Dennis Dominey

Lifelong half-assed slot racer


#5 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 337 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:22 AM

No one is sending them in because when he tests the motors he does it on a supply. He doesn't track test them. And we have to wait for his test to say if we get new motors. Seems fair to me.

I'm sure Greg Fox will post his conversation with Tim here for everyone to see. I prefer the Hawk motors over Pro Slot. And I am not a henchman. No matter what some members think. But sorry, I'm not doing Tim's quality control just to be told my motor issues are my fault. I'll just quit racing. Not a big deal honestly
  • crazyphysicsteacher, Danny Zona and gfox like this
Jason Engel

#6 The Sawdust Man

The Sawdust Man

    Backmarker

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 97 posts
  • Joined: 24-October 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canton, MI

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:03 AM

Another swipe at racers? I don't see that at all. I see a guy who has put a lot of effort into finding out what the problem is, was very honest in his findings, and stated that more info will be available soon. I see a guy who is trying to help the racers and his product/business at the same time!


  • SlowBeas, Tim Neja, JerseyJohn and 4 others like this
Robert Manzitti

#7 Dan Ebert

Dan Ebert

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erie, PA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:10 AM

I had four bad motors this past weekend. I recently purchased 20 new 7Rs. The first four I tried to race this weekend were a half second slower.  All were broken-in on a power supply. None in water or Simple Green. I even did several heat runs in hopes that they would come around. They never did.  

I have never had this type of problem with previous Retro Hawk motors. Before anyone tells me I am doing something wrong. Here is the simple fact. That weekend I won the race using an older Retro Hawk motor. It looks like I will have to go through the rest before attempting to take any to a race. 

Since I don't want to waste valuable track time changing out turd motors at races. I will not buy any more RHs until I see the problem is resolved.


  • Frankie Schaffier, TG Racing and gfox like this
GallerymanDan

#8 gfox

gfox

    hack according to some

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 79 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OH

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:26 AM

Dan,

He hasn't addressed the 'slow by 1/2 second' issue yet. LOL.
  • race301 and Dan Ebert like this
Greg Fox

#9 Half Fast

Half Fast

    Keeper Of Odd Knowledge

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,057 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NYC, Long Island

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:31 AM

A lot of harsh words here but none of the gripers has bothered to post a link to the 26 page (!) JK report. Here it is, read it, and judge for yourself:
 
JK Products® “2-Step” Engineering Report
 
Cheers,


  • SlowBeas, David Rees and JK Products like this

Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now.

The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!

 

 

 
 

#10 Dan Ebert

Dan Ebert

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erie, PA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:39 AM

I guess you missed my post on that Facebook thread. He addresses the break-in procedure. 

The real problem is the poor performance. I can't even use those four motors in house races. They are that slow. With past RHs I may get one out of 10 that was a turd. This time the first four tried out of 20. That isn't a good percentage.
GallerymanDan

#11 Mike Patterson

Mike Patterson

    Village Luddite™

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,156 posts
  • Joined: 14-October 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zanesville, OH

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:42 AM

Here's an idea: make everyone race with a turd motor. Impound and destroy all the fast ones. Someone sets a new track record? Confiscate his/her motor, and give them a replacement turd. Since the turds outnumber the good ones, apparently, get rid of the good ones. Problem solved.
 
You're welcome.


  • Tex, SlowBeas, 911GT3 and 5 others like this

My neighbors listen to heavy metal... whether they want to or not!!!


#12 Tex

Tex

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,974 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denton, TX

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:44 AM

Man, you guys must have money to burn, seriously. How many wins do you typically get out of a healthy batch of 20 (or more) motors? How many of those 20+ motors "make the cut" and are used as race motors? And what do you do with the rest of the motors?


  • race301, JimF and aquavelvis like this
Richard L. Hofer

Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! Only you're a block over and a block behind.

#13 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Posting Leader

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,083 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:46 AM

I always wondered what test would actually be performed if we sent in the motor to have it analyzed, now we know they will be looked at with a flashlight and put on a power supply. I'll save the time and postage, I can do that myself. Im sure most racers feel the same way and that's why more motors weren't sent in.

Why was the motor brush material changed to such a hard material? In the past SG was never used or needed because the brushes were much softer.

Why was the insulation material changed? Now there is hardly any insulation, which causes the spring arm to have play in it and they leak much more electricity when put through a leakage test.

JK claims this problem has never happened outside of the US, then when someone outside the US posts on his page they have the same issue his post gets deleted. Others from around world post they have this issue on FB but they have no crediablitly because everyone who speaks their mind or offerd an opinion is is automatically discredited and called a Henchman, or Jihadist.

While Tim and Greg will probably perceive this post as a slam against JK, that's simply untrue. Despite all of the current Hawk Retro issues I still choose to run it in 66% of the FNRS classes, and his products are allowed in 100% of our classes. In regards to motors used for IRRA racing, we've always had the problem of motor specs being changed through time. This goes way back to Puppy Dog, remember when they changed can thickness and everyone swore the thin cans were faster? You can't blame them when the manufacturer changes the supposed spec products.

I appreciate Tim's efforts, but to me as a customer and racer and I would like to see JK solve the issue in the next batch by correcting the problems, changing parts or materials and stop blaming the customers. As a manufacturer myself, I make mistakes and when I do I admit them and correct them. If someone has a quality issue I replace the item, not require them to send it back for inspection only to blame them for the problem.

I've said all along, I think the best thing Tim could do is to grab a car and controller and head to his local raceway. Grab a motor off the wall and try to break it in and race it. I think he would see a whole new perspective on things. Not to mention I'm sure he'd enjoy hanging out with all his friends, customers and enjoy this hobby we all love.

In the end as a racer and series director I'll sit tight and hope changes are made. If that doesn't happen then obviously other options will have to be explored. Hopefully it doesn't come to that and Tim will get this solved.
  • race301, Tim Neja, JimF and 12 others like this

#14 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,128 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:56 AM

But sorry, I'm not doing Tim's quality control...


OK, Butters, why don't you tell everyone just how Tim is supposed to perform QC on these motors?

He specs motors from one of the best Chinese manufacturers, the same one almost everyone sourcing these motors for slot cars uses, and probably spends $30,000 or more per batch, which has to be paid in advance BTW.

Everyone suggests the motors have to be broken-in before they can be assessed, so what's JK supposed to do for QC? Break 'em all in and then toss the ones that don't work? And as you said, put every one of them in a car and track-test 'em?

And you want him to do this for a motor that retails for $14? Get real...

Why don't you bring out a superior alternative to the Retro Hawk for sealed motor racing and show us all how it is done, since you obviously feel you could do a better job than JK? Surely there are enough unhappy RH racers who would invest in such a venture...
  • SlowBeas, Half Fast, JerseyJohn and 2 others like this

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#15 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,128 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:02 AM

Why was the motor brush material changed to such a hard material?


According to Tim, he has made no change in the specification of the brush material. If it has indeed changed, it was done by the manufacturer of the brushes themselves (likely not the same company that makes the motors) or due the inherent variable nature involved in making motor brushes of this type.

Don't believe me? Ask Tim yourself, rather than assuming that he specified a different brush material. Might also want to ask Tonyp about the problems Trinity has had over the years in securing a supply of consistent brushes for their R/C motors.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#16 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Posting Leader

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,083 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:09 AM

If it has indeed changed? LOL. You definitely haven't had one of these in your hands or tried to break one in.

I never accused Tim of purposely changing the material. Please don't twist what I said. It was a simple question asking why it changed. If it was in fact done unknowingly then that is certainly understandable. Why not just come out and say that? It's an obvious cause of some of the issues as JK admitted. The brushes shouldn't be so hard that chemicals are needed to wear them out.
  • TG Racing and Danny Zona like this

#17 Racer36

Racer36

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 796 posts
  • Joined: 09-October 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:22 AM

We could always go back to the Falcon 7 where the brushes would last for about 7-1/2 heats. Imagine the complaints then!

Dennis Dominey

Lifelong half-assed slot racer


#18 JerseyJohn

JerseyJohn

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,910 posts
  • Joined: 05-September 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern NJ

Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:42 AM

The only difference I see in the newest batch is the brushes are huge. Much taller than the previous batches. They take about 45 to 60 sec in Green to get them down as opposed to 10-15 sec on previous models. Your results may vary.

John


JJ TRADE MARK BANNER copy.jpg

John Chas Molnar

"Certified Newark Wise Guy since 1984" (retired)
"Certified Tony P Chassis God since 2007"
" Internationally Know Slot Car Racing Celebrity "
https://www.facebook...nchassisworks/#
Email me
 


#19 Eddie Fleming

Eddie Fleming

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,116 posts
  • Joined: 27-April 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayetteville, GA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

I just went through all 26 pages of the report and I do not see a swipe at racers or anyone.


  • Cheater, SlowBeas, tonyp and 5 others like this
Eddie Fleming

#20 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,862 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:07 PM

My two cents... from the beginning of racing Retro I have liked the sealed motor concept, as I have felt that building my own motors was too time consuming (once I spent hours building a chassis...), but lately it is taking even more time trying various "voodoo" break-in procedures, dyno testing, track testing, etc. It's gotten to the point where it has sapped a lot of the fun out of it, especially since in the last two years I have not found an 7R motors that are as fast (for me) as a pre-7R batch I purchased in 2015.  
 
Although I know there are some people that are getting some of these motors to run decently, there are just too many people that are having issues for this not to be real. To think otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.


  • Mike Jr, Dan Ebert, Bernie and 2 others like this
"Whatever..."

#21 Guillermo Suar

Guillermo Suar

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts
  • Joined: 03-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mount Vernon, IN

Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:10 PM

I may have some comprehension problems because English is not my first language  :wacko2:  but  all I see is a good effort from Tim trying to figure out what the problem is. Don't see any swipe.

 

I found it very interesting and it for sure brings light to the different break-in methods results. 


  • SlowBeas and MarkH like this
Because light travels faster than sound, some people appear to be bright until we hear them speaking.

#22 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,711 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:18 PM

The first and real issue is the arrogance and condescending approach or lack of one to a potential issue by the mfg.. Even if the mfg. is 110% correct, initial insults and rebuttal will never correct anything. In fact what it does is takes away any potential integrity and validity for future issues. If the mfg.'s first reply to all of this would have just been something like"sorry to hear you are having issues, let us look into it", I am sure the perception to the potential issue would have been much lighter. Unfortunately that has not been the situation.

 

As Ralph stated the mfg. may have not made the issues intentionally and the vendor may have made running changes, that is certainly possible considering the source.

 

If it is it ok for non racers of this motor to say "get over it, it is only a $14 motor", then I am going to say it only costs the mfg. $1.50ish a motor to confirm or deny a possible issue. Invest $6 first into root cause analysis and/or COA and then state your case.

 

Ralph is correct in that there is a variance in endbell insulator material. There is an off white material that has the same chemical make up of a M21 material. This is the same as the original Hawk Retro and can be found all the way into the 7R. However through my R&D process we discovered that there is also a light greyish plastic material. I apologize that I have not had time to get this to our chem lab to be tested for composition make up, but will after the holidays. I will say that it is different though and there is more electrical leakage outside the can with this insulator than with the off white color. What does this mean and how does it change performance? Well right now I believe it to be acting as a lack of ground, or a short. The brush arms are potentially grounding to the endbell. How is the test done? We remove the armature and carefully seal all orifices The can is then put into a water tank with the can/endbell seam being just above the water. We use a Fluke600/220 Plus conductive probe attached to a medical leakage tester that reads in micro amps. It does not peg the meter regardless, so there are no handling safety concerns, but there is a possibility that there is enough electrical leakage to slow them down. Of all the HR motors I have, I only have 2 with this lighter grey insulator and both were sub par. That being said I have the other style insulator that have not been similar in performance as prior batches as well.

 

I will start by asking the IRRA to mandate that approved motors must have a designation marking on them that is unique to each batch. I think with the possibility of more handout races and/or specific motor model races, this would be an easy start. It may be a PITA for the mfg., but it may also save them the same amount of time trying to decipher potential quality issues and what batch they came from.


  • Jason Holmes, Bernie, NSwanberg and 4 others like this
Matt Sheldon

#23 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 337 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:27 PM

Ok Greg. Seems odd that after Tim had all the specs changed on the motor to improve them is when things went south. If he wants to buy or has to buy in bulk from China and sell what they have then why has the irra and others not stood up and outlawed all the old motors. That should be an easy fix. The picture from marks is a great example. All the lap times off of records. Generally as the cars tires bodies etc get better the times will drop. Not so this year. The motor has fallen flat on the floor and its the racer that is left with pieces. And now you want me to send a motor back to allow Tim to evaluate it on a power supply? Exactly where is a race that only runs off of a power supply and is not ran on a track? We can all gather around and look at the numbers on a screen. Sounds like a plan.

When I got into this I asked a million questions to everyone at the track. Greg fox matt Bruce bud Willy etc on what was the best way to break in a motor. And guess what no one has ever said???? What is printed on the back of his package. So that tells me one thing. Maybe just maybe an engineer that doesnt race may not know the most about motor performance on the track. Off the track in the hypothetical world yes Tim is who I would trust over anyone. Hes an engineer and very logical and thoughtful on his findings. But just like physics its test done in a vacuum and far away from the variables of racing. Thats the difference. We are on two different planets trying to look at results and come up with an answer.

A simple ohms test on the leads would give you the resistance of the motor from lead to lead. This could tell you if the brushes are garbage. Arm not wound tight enough. If the wire is even the right size. How good are the connections etc. you telling me that a simple ohms test is impractical? A person just going through each one....say this many ohms is to much in the crap pile and this number and down will pass qc.

When I broke in ten old r motors last season I checked the ohms on my fluke meter prior to break in. The ones with the lowest ohms were the faster motors. The connection from one lead all through the motor and out the other were lower. Even with the brushes being a different material higher will still be worse and lower will be better.

And just for clarity I broke my coupe motor in coffee last year at the r4. Ran great. No issues. One quick spray of motor spray and some oil and we were good to go. So maybe its not the racers fault. Just maybe.

Just a thought though. If only 7r motors are allowed then no one would have to worry about being slower. Because if all motors are off .3 who cares because we all are off .3. But when r motors are still allowed its apparent that there are the haves and the have nots. Just a thought from a consumer and a person who has paid entries in to irra events and races that use irra rules


  • usadar likes this
Jason Engel

#24 Tex

Tex

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,974 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denton, TX

Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:35 PM

Tim isn't going to fix 10,000 motors(he can't).

 

The chinese manufacturer isn't going to fix 10,000 motors(they won't).

 

Tim is far more in a financial hole than any of y'all.

 

There are two possible resolutions to the problem:  (1) Tim forks over another large sum of cash for a new batch of motors(this is the path preferred by the chinese manufacturer). No guarantee regarding the performance of the new batch of motors(never HAS been "guaranteed" performance for ANY such motors),  or (2) pick another motor.


  • Phil Hackett and aquavelvis like this
Richard L. Hofer

Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! Only you're a block over and a block behind.

#25 JerseyJohn

JerseyJohn

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,910 posts
  • Joined: 05-September 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern NJ

Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:50 PM

A question. WHY are there no BALANCE marks on the stacks. Seems funny. Ive removed the goo on several different version and saw  no difference in amp draw or speed.


JJ TRADE MARK BANNER copy.jpg

John Chas Molnar

"Certified Newark Wise Guy since 1984" (retired)
"Certified Tony P Chassis God since 2007"
" Internationally Know Slot Car Racing Celebrity "
https://www.facebook...nchassisworks/#
Email me
 






Electric Dreams Online Shop