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JK takes another swipe at racers


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#1 Brinkley47

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:34 AM

Why isn't it posted here? JK concluded it is 100% our fault. Who knew we could all be wrong at the same time.

PS: I dont want to use Simple Green to break-in my motor. As racers, we have to use Simple Green in a hand-out race to get them broken-in in time.

 

I never needed Simple Green for an R motor. I could literally put an R motor in the car and break it in. Good luck with that on a 7R.


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#2 Racer36

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:52 AM

You might want to read the report again. You completely missed what Tim was trying to establish.

 

With all the bitching about motors he has only had two sent back for evaluation... hardly an epidemic, and certainly not enough to come to solid technical conclusions.

 

The Simple Green method works slick as **** if you do it right. He pointed out in very specific terms that some guys are not doing it right and he is correct.

 

Read it again before you get your panties in a knot.


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Dennis Dominey

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#3 Brinkley47

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:55 AM

You don't race much, do you?

That is the only explanation if you think this is an isolated problem.
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#4 Racer36

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:15 AM

I race enough and I supply motors to about a dozen guys. If it is such a huge problem why are guys not sending junkers in for analysis as requested numerous times? How can a manufacturer determine if there is a problem without real evidence. Is he supposed to trust the statements of racers that may or may not be good enough to discern between a bad motor and crappy setup?

I looked through invoices last week and I have purchased 220 RH motors in the last 18 months. Of those one went up in smoke and the endbell "allegedly" fell off another. Is that grounds for screaming about a motor problem? I think not.

I race OCC and Penn-Ohio and I have not been short on motor yet. 

If there is such a problem then send Tim some hard evidence for him to work with.


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#5 Butters37

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:22 AM

No one is sending them in because when he tests the motors he does it on a supply. He doesn't track test them. And we have to wait for his test to say if we get new motors. Seems fair to me.

I'm sure Greg Fox will post his conversation with Tim here for everyone to see. I prefer the Hawk motors over Pro Slot. And I am not a henchman. No matter what some members think. But sorry, I'm not doing Tim's quality control just to be told my motor issues are my fault. I'll just quit racing. Not a big deal honestly
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#6 The Sawdust Man

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:03 AM

Another swipe at racers? I don't see that at all. I see a guy who has put a lot of effort into finding out what the problem is, was very honest in his findings, and stated that more info will be available soon. I see a guy who is trying to help the racers and his product/business at the same time!


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Robert Manzitti

#7 Dan Ebert

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:10 AM

I had four bad motors this past weekend. I recently purchased 20 new 7Rs. The first four I tried to race this weekend were a half second slower.  All were broken-in on a power supply. None in water or Simple Green. I even did several heat runs in hopes that they would come around. They never did.  

I have never had this type of problem with previous Retro Hawk motors. Before anyone tells me I am doing something wrong. Here is the simple fact. That weekend I won the race using an older Retro Hawk motor. It looks like I will have to go through the rest before attempting to take any to a race. 

Since I don't want to waste valuable track time changing out turd motors at races. I will not buy any more RHs until I see the problem is resolved.


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GallerymanDan

#8 gfox

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:26 AM

Dan,

He hasn't addressed the 'slow by 1/2 second' issue yet. LOL.
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Greg Fox

#9 Half Fast

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:31 AM

A lot of harsh words here but none of the gripers has bothered to post a link to the 26 page (!) JK report. Here it is, read it, and judge for yourself:
 
JK Products® “2-Step” Engineering Report
 
Cheers,


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#10 Dan Ebert

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:39 AM

I guess you missed my post on that Facebook thread. He addresses the break-in procedure. 

The real problem is the poor performance. I can't even use those four motors in house races. They are that slow. With past RHs I may get one out of 10 that was a turd. This time the first four tried out of 20. That isn't a good percentage.
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#11 Mike Patterson

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:42 AM

Here's an idea: make everyone race with a turd motor. Impound and destroy all the fast ones. Someone sets a new track record? Confiscate his/her motor, and give them a replacement turd. Since the turds outnumber the good ones, apparently, get rid of the good ones. Problem solved.
 
You're welcome.


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#12 Tex

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:44 AM

Man, you guys must have money to burn, seriously. How many wins do you typically get out of a healthy batch of 20 (or more) motors? How many of those 20+ motors "make the cut" and are used as race motors? And what do you do with the rest of the motors?


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#13 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:46 AM

I always wondered what test would actually be performed if we sent in the motor to have it analyzed, now we know they will be looked at with a flashlight and put on a power supply. I'll save the time and postage, I can do that myself. Im sure most racers feel the same way and that's why more motors weren't sent in.

Why was the motor brush material changed to such a hard material? In the past SG was never used or needed because the brushes were much softer.

Why was the insulation material changed? Now there is hardly any insulation, which causes the spring arm to have play in it and they leak much more electricity when put through a leakage test.

JK claims this problem has never happened outside of the US, then when someone outside the US posts on his page they have the same issue his post gets deleted. Others from around world post they have this issue on FB but they have no crediablitly because everyone who speaks their mind or offerd an opinion is is automatically discredited and called a Henchman, or Jihadist.

While Tim and Greg will probably perceive this post as a slam against JK, that's simply untrue. Despite all of the current Hawk Retro issues I still choose to run it in 66% of the FNRS classes, and his products are allowed in 100% of our classes. In regards to motors used for IRRA racing, we've always had the problem of motor specs being changed through time. This goes way back to Puppy Dog, remember when they changed can thickness and everyone swore the thin cans were faster? You can't blame them when the manufacturer changes the supposed spec products.

I appreciate Tim's efforts, but to me as a customer and racer and I would like to see JK solve the issue in the next batch by correcting the problems, changing parts or materials and stop blaming the customers. As a manufacturer myself, I make mistakes and when I do I admit them and correct them. If someone has a quality issue I replace the item, not require them to send it back for inspection only to blame them for the problem.

I've said all along, I think the best thing Tim could do is to grab a car and controller and head to his local raceway. Grab a motor off the wall and try to break it in and race it. I think he would see a whole new perspective on things. Not to mention I'm sure he'd enjoy hanging out with all his friends, customers and enjoy this hobby we all love.

In the end as a racer and series director I'll sit tight and hope changes are made. If that doesn't happen then obviously other options will have to be explored. Hopefully it doesn't come to that and Tim will get this solved.
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#14 Cheater

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:56 AM

But sorry, I'm not doing Tim's quality control...


OK, Butters, why don't you tell everyone just how Tim is supposed to perform QC on these motors?

He specs motors from one of the best Chinese manufacturers, the same one almost everyone sourcing these motors for slot cars uses, and probably spends $30,000 or more per batch, which has to be paid in advance BTW.

Everyone suggests the motors have to be broken-in before they can be assessed, so what's JK supposed to do for QC? Break 'em all in and then toss the ones that don't work? And as you said, put every one of them in a car and track-test 'em?

And you want him to do this for a motor that retails for $14? Get real...

Why don't you bring out a superior alternative to the Retro Hawk for sealed motor racing and show us all how it is done, since you obviously feel you could do a better job than JK? Surely there are enough unhappy RH racers who would invest in such a venture...
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#15 Cheater

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:02 AM

Why was the motor brush material changed to such a hard material?


According to Tim, he has made no change in the specification of the brush material. If it has indeed changed, it was done by the manufacturer of the brushes themselves (likely not the same company that makes the motors) or due the inherent variable nature involved in making motor brushes of this type.

Don't believe me? Ask Tim yourself, rather than assuming that he specified a different brush material. Might also want to ask Tonyp about the problems Trinity has had over the years in securing a supply of consistent brushes for their R/C motors.

Gregory Wells

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#16 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:09 AM

If it has indeed changed? LOL. You definitely haven't had one of these in your hands or tried to break one in.

I never accused Tim of purposely changing the material. Please don't twist what I said. It was a simple question asking why it changed. If it was in fact done unknowingly then that is certainly understandable. Why not just come out and say that? It's an obvious cause of some of the issues as JK admitted. The brushes shouldn't be so hard that chemicals are needed to wear them out.
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#17 Racer36

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:22 AM

We could always go back to the Falcon 7 where the brushes would last for about 7-1/2 heats. Imagine the complaints then!

Dennis Dominey

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#18 JerseyJohn

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:42 AM

The only difference I see in the newest batch is the brushes are huge. Much taller than the previous batches. They take about 45 to 60 sec in Green to get them down as opposed to 10-15 sec on previous models. Your results may vary.

John


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#19 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

I just went through all 26 pages of the report and I do not see a swipe at racers or anyone.


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#20 John Streisguth

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:07 PM

My two cents... from the beginning of racing Retro I have liked the sealed motor concept, as I have felt that building my own motors was too time consuming (once I spent hours building a chassis...), but lately it is taking even more time trying various "voodoo" break-in procedures, dyno testing, track testing, etc. It's gotten to the point where it has sapped a lot of the fun out of it, especially since in the last two years I have not found an 7R motors that are as fast (for me) as a pre-7R batch I purchased in 2015.  
 
Although I know there are some people that are getting some of these motors to run decently, there are just too many people that are having issues for this not to be real. To think otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.


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#21 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:10 PM

I may have some comprehension problems because English is not my first language  :wacko2:  but  all I see is a good effort from Tim trying to figure out what the problem is. Don't see any swipe.

 

I found it very interesting and it for sure brings light to the different break-in methods results. 


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#22 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:18 PM

The first and real issue is the arrogance and condescending approach or lack of one to a potential issue by the mfg.. Even if the mfg. is 110% correct, initial insults and rebuttal will never correct anything. In fact what it does is takes away any potential integrity and validity for future issues. If the mfg.'s first reply to all of this would have just been something like"sorry to hear you are having issues, let us look into it", I am sure the perception to the potential issue would have been much lighter. Unfortunately that has not been the situation.

 

As Ralph stated the mfg. may have not made the issues intentionally and the vendor may have made running changes, that is certainly possible considering the source.

 

If it is it ok for non racers of this motor to say "get over it, it is only a $14 motor", then I am going to say it only costs the mfg. $1.50ish a motor to confirm or deny a possible issue. Invest $6 first into root cause analysis and/or COA and then state your case.

 

Ralph is correct in that there is a variance in endbell insulator material. There is an off white material that has the same chemical make up of a M21 material. This is the same as the original Hawk Retro and can be found all the way into the 7R. However through my R&D process we discovered that there is also a light greyish plastic material. I apologize that I have not had time to get this to our chem lab to be tested for composition make up, but will after the holidays. I will say that it is different though and there is more electrical leakage outside the can with this insulator than with the off white color. What does this mean and how does it change performance? Well right now I believe it to be acting as a lack of ground, or a short. The brush arms are potentially grounding to the endbell. How is the test done? We remove the armature and carefully seal all orifices The can is then put into a water tank with the can/endbell seam being just above the water. We use a Fluke600/220 Plus conductive probe attached to a medical leakage tester that reads in micro amps. It does not peg the meter regardless, so there are no handling safety concerns, but there is a possibility that there is enough electrical leakage to slow them down. Of all the HR motors I have, I only have 2 with this lighter grey insulator and both were sub par. That being said I have the other style insulator that have not been similar in performance as prior batches as well.

 

I will start by asking the IRRA to mandate that approved motors must have a designation marking on them that is unique to each batch. I think with the possibility of more handout races and/or specific motor model races, this would be an easy start. It may be a PITA for the mfg., but it may also save them the same amount of time trying to decipher potential quality issues and what batch they came from.


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#23 Butters37

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:27 PM

Ok Greg. Seems odd that after Tim had all the specs changed on the motor to improve them is when things went south. If he wants to buy or has to buy in bulk from China and sell what they have then why has the irra and others not stood up and outlawed all the old motors. That should be an easy fix. The picture from marks is a great example. All the lap times off of records. Generally as the cars tires bodies etc get better the times will drop. Not so this year. The motor has fallen flat on the floor and its the racer that is left with pieces. And now you want me to send a motor back to allow Tim to evaluate it on a power supply? Exactly where is a race that only runs off of a power supply and is not ran on a track? We can all gather around and look at the numbers on a screen. Sounds like a plan.

When I got into this I asked a million questions to everyone at the track. Greg fox matt Bruce bud Willy etc on what was the best way to break in a motor. And guess what no one has ever said???? What is printed on the back of his package. So that tells me one thing. Maybe just maybe an engineer that doesnt race may not know the most about motor performance on the track. Off the track in the hypothetical world yes Tim is who I would trust over anyone. Hes an engineer and very logical and thoughtful on his findings. But just like physics its test done in a vacuum and far away from the variables of racing. Thats the difference. We are on two different planets trying to look at results and come up with an answer.

A simple ohms test on the leads would give you the resistance of the motor from lead to lead. This could tell you if the brushes are garbage. Arm not wound tight enough. If the wire is even the right size. How good are the connections etc. you telling me that a simple ohms test is impractical? A person just going through each one....say this many ohms is to much in the crap pile and this number and down will pass qc.

When I broke in ten old r motors last season I checked the ohms on my fluke meter prior to break in. The ones with the lowest ohms were the faster motors. The connection from one lead all through the motor and out the other were lower. Even with the brushes being a different material higher will still be worse and lower will be better.

And just for clarity I broke my coupe motor in coffee last year at the r4. Ran great. No issues. One quick spray of motor spray and some oil and we were good to go. So maybe its not the racers fault. Just maybe.

Just a thought though. If only 7r motors are allowed then no one would have to worry about being slower. Because if all motors are off .3 who cares because we all are off .3. But when r motors are still allowed its apparent that there are the haves and the have nots. Just a thought from a consumer and a person who has paid entries in to irra events and races that use irra rules


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#24 Tex

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:35 PM

Tim isn't going to fix 10,000 motors(he can't).

 

The chinese manufacturer isn't going to fix 10,000 motors(they won't).

 

Tim is far more in a financial hole than any of y'all.

 

There are two possible resolutions to the problem:  (1) Tim forks over another large sum of cash for a new batch of motors(this is the path preferred by the chinese manufacturer). No guarantee regarding the performance of the new batch of motors(never HAS been "guaranteed" performance for ANY such motors),  or (2) pick another motor.


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#25 JerseyJohn

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:50 PM

A question. WHY are there no BALANCE marks on the stacks. Seems funny. Ive removed the goo on several different version and saw  no difference in amp draw or speed.


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#26 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:55 PM

I do not think the Chinese recognize ISO 9000 QC standards. You get what they sell you, no recourse.


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#27 Butters37

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:34 PM

I am in no way saying Tim should eat what he has purchased so far. That would be an awful business decision. But when he tells racers to send them in for evaluation he has created a situation that he cant win. He says they are fine the racer feel hurt. He says they are bad and replaces them then everyone will send in slow motors. He loses either way. But when he off re this service it are the racers who end up losing the most. Im sorry if he wanted praise or thanks, buying a company that sells race parts is the wrong place to do it. There will always be complaints and issues. With that said blaming your customer base might not be the best way to sell more.....or calling people henchmen. The same people who go to races who push your motors as their flagship motor

The organizations that use these motors are the ones that need to step up and only allow motors that people can buy from shops in the blisters. Then and only then will the playing field be level. If you cant buy it off a shelf you cant run it. Simple as that. There was no question when it was a proslot motor being disallowed at races. Saying its time has come to an end. Its the same now. Old mystical batches of motors are gone. Move on and simplify it to one version that is actually still in production
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#28 crazyphysicsteacher

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

I believe part of the problem here is that a change was made to the motors. Somewhere, someone made a change. Whether it was done on purpose or not, we can all agree there was a change. Now, how to handle the change is the question. I like sealed motors for the same reason John S does, less time to spend on building and parts. I also understand brush problems, I throw out about every 3rd pair of brushes I use because they have problems when run.
What has to happen is a big statement of admitting what happened. Then we can move on. People will forgive. But until then, this will continue and I think it may not be good for jk or others. I saw the test report, the test motor had the same glue I have been seeing on recent motors. I have seen the same result as in the photos, one brush is worn more than the other, way more. I know brushes wear i even, but the hawk motors have always been fairly consistent to me in brush wear. I do believe this may be a new build practice, but if the glue holds the spring back, lower pressure on the com will lead to blacking of the comm and also deposits that will insulate it. Just my two cents, but what do I know.
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#29 Fast Freddie

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

I find it amazing that something so simple, yes a pun is meant, has been made so hard to understand.  If you read the Facebook troubleshooting piece it covered soaking the motor in Simple  Green to quick break-in time to long break-in times to water break-in but where was the suggested procedure that Matt Bruce developed, I didn't see it did you??  Take notice also that all the run in voltages are above the recommended 5 volts, why is that??  I also offered one more step that should be mandatory in the process and that is to make sure the comm. slots are clean before any final break-in or track use.  So here we go boys and girls one more time the way I do it;

 

 

I use a clean yogurt cup (Yoplait) for the Simple Green and the bottom half of a bottled water container for the water.

 

Hook up the motor to your power supply and put the motor into the SG container place power to 3 volts for 7 sec turn off power and check brush seating.  You may need another 3-5 seconds at the 3 volts to get the brushes fully seated.  when the brushes are fully seated put the motor into the water turn the pwr supply to 3 volts for no more than 3 sec.  That dunk in the water will remove most of the Simple Green.

 

Now flush the motor out very good with your favorite motor flush.  I usually rotate the arm by hand during this process to make sure I get the water out and any Simple Green that may have been left behind.

 

Blow the motor out with air.  I use low pressure compressor air or canned air.

 

Inspect the comm. slots.  If they are dirty I use a sharpened wooden toothpick to clean out the brush material if they are clean your good to go.  I give the motor another spray of motor cleaner to flush that out.

 

I usually let the motor sit for a few minutes before final break-in.  Final break-in is 2 minutes at 3 volts.  Then check the comm. slots one last time to make sure they are clean.

 

By the way in the JK Facebook piece they mention that the Simple Green can get between the brushes and comm., so if that's true then so can the water and motor flush.  When this process is done right there is no Simple Green left on the brushes and the comm. comes out looking just fine, but you have to do it right.  My way is just that and it works for me, it can also work for you.

 

One more thing on the JK Facebook troubleshooting piece, the motor they are using appears to have a total of 7+ hours of break-in on it and it still isn't fully broken in.


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Fred Younkin

#30 Fast Freddie

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:01 PM

JJ here's an answer to your question.  I to have a couple of motors with no balancing marks.  They are rather smooth running so I guess they passed the tech inspection specs.  I'm sure there are parameters they have to meet and if the arm is within those parameters they don't take the time to make it better.


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Fred Younkin

#31 Brinkley47

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:16 PM

Am I the only one who feels Tim answered questions no one asked in his report?

He also avoided the common questions asked over and over. Why are they slower? Why does a brand new out of package motor shift?

I feel like he jumped on the break in process (racer problem) vs. a manufacturer problem. I sincerely think the new changes with the new batch of motors are the problem. The brushes are too hard for a toothbrush, much less a slot car motor.

The racers are simply adjusting (different break in methods) to the nonsense we have been given.

Sincerely,
Frustrated racer about to pull the plug on his retro program
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Will Brinkley
willbrinkley@gmail.com

#32 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:33 PM

"Pull the plug on your Retro Program?"  Will, you just had a great Fall Brawl.  Get away from the computer for a while and enjoy your Holiday Season.  Things will work out.


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"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#33 Mr. M

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:33 PM

I find the discussion here interesting and disturbing at the same time. No, I do not race retro, but I am an electrical engineer with over 40 years experience in materials engineering, root cause investigations, physical and chemical analysis, and materials integration. So don't dilute my message because this is not the sandbox I race in. I have worked with OEMs on highly sophisticated, difficult to understand, elusive problems, to solve their and self induced issues. This is not easy, there are so many things that cannot be controlled, only observed, and the ability of suppliers to control all of these without any intended changes is way beyond what seems reasonable and expected. Unless you have lived this outside of this forum, you have no clue that the expectations set here are unreasonable and just will not and cannot happen. The techniques used here are sound and display good engineering and root cause investigative processes. Bashing JK here has no positive impact, it will not make any difference because there is no way the face of JK can meet these unreasonable, impossibly high expectations. What can be learned is that there is information here that is valuable and should be taken in because the user has control of taking precautions to be sure that the com and brushes are thoroughly cleaned after a common time reducing break in method. Take this and use it to your advantage instead of complaining.
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Chris McCarty

#34 Racer36

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:49 PM

Matt Sheldon and Mr. M bring some great insight and rational thinking to this conversation. Lets hope they stick with us.

I will say after re-reading the report that if there is one fault, it is that Tim has a rather abrupt way of writing messages and reports . Not a slam by any means, but he communicates like a lot of the engineers I have worked with over the past 15 years and it can put people off if they are not used to it.

I support what he is trying to do regardless. 


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Dennis Dominey

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#35 Jimmy Williams

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:11 PM

The report is a start, but very far away from the finish. What I would like to see, and this will probably do or prove nothing, but I would like to Jerry Kulich's input on this. See if he thinks things went sour or if he believes things are going in the right direction.

 

My biggest discrepancy is not just returning to the r motors. Even after the first batch of legal 7r motors came out, it was clear they were inferior so a simple "I'm sorry an experiment I tried was unsuccessful" would have fixed things and a revert to the old motors would have been the best decision. But knowing they are chinese arms, a revert probably isn't as simple as it seems.


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#36 raisin27

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:12 PM

I find it interesting that in my first discussion with JK he dismissed my findings because he (mistakenly) thought I had run my motors only on a power supply and dyno and had not run them on the track.


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#37 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:47 PM

FWIW, out here in SoCal, at the last two major SCRRA races at Buena Park Raceway (2017 Parma Checkpoint Cup and Summer Western Classic) we have been running a hand-out motor format in Can Am using the JK Hawk Retro 7R7R that has worked remarkably well with an absolute minimum of problems and virtually zero complaints from the racers.
 
The SCRRA (and most of the racers) felt the hand-out program was in the best interests of everyone concerned as it hopefully limited everyone to using motors from the same batch. This was only for Can-Am and the SCRRA will be doing the exact same thing with the Hawk 7R7R motors at the upcoming Parma Checkpoint Cup in January at the end of next month.
 
Also, FWIW, at the Summer Western Classic last July, many racers broke in their motors using Simple Green with many methods being used. Personally I used a 9 volt battery and ran them for 7 seconds submerged and then cleaned out thoroughly. I'm sure there were almost as many methods as racers and I didn't hear of one complaint about any break in issues with the Simple Green.  :)


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#38 olescratch

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:49 PM

Take a break, go build some Thingies, and power them with the turds!  We just like to see our creations MOVE, they don't have to break records, and the day is filled with FUN which seems to be lacking in the racing veins of this HOBBY!  And NO, I don't race, haven't since 1969, too much stress.  As a matter of fact, this will be the last time I view any post on this subject.  It just seems to be re-hashing the same garbage.  What would happen if all the people that think that these motors suck, stop buying them!  Sound like a bunch of addicts!  Just don't play the game!  BTW, has anyone studied the effect of inhaling vapors from Simple Green, has on the human body?  Test that before you begin to practice using chemicals in unintended methods!  


John Stewart

#39 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:56 PM

Also, FWIW, at the Summer Western Classic last July, many racers broke-in their motors using Simple Green with many methods being used. Personally I used a 9 volt battery and ran them for 7 seconds submerged and then cleaned out thoroughly. I'm sure there were almost as many methods as racers and I didn't hear of one complaint about any break-in issues with the Simple Green.  :)

 

What batch of Simple Green are you using, Bryan?  :)


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Eddie Fleming

#40 Tex

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:05 PM

He also avoided the common questions asked over and over. Why are they slower? Why does a brand new out of package motor shift?

 
What makes you think he actually knows the answers? He is an importer... he buys motors in bulk, imports them, and sells them. Obviously, something changed with some/most of the motors. Can you tell by looking? Does being an importer give him special powers to divine the answer?

 

More than any of y'all, I'm sure he wishes things hadn't gone the way they have; his liveihood is on the line.


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Richard L. Hofer

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#41 swodem

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:13 PM

What batch of Simple Green are you using, Bryan?  :)

 

Hahahaha - that's gold!!


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#42 gc4895

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:20 PM

Really wish these motors were 1/2 second faster. They would be sold out and trading on eBay at big premiums. A few racers would be bitching about what to do with old motors but that would soon be forgotten. These should come only in sealed 10 motor packs like Pokémon cards. Open the pack to hope to get 1 or 2 fast ones, a couple good and 6 or 7 plain Janes. I think JK only messes up if these come out slower. Everybody likes faster.
Mark Bauer

#43 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:22 PM

I find the discussion here interesting and disturbing at the same time. No, I do not race retro, but I am an electrical engineer with over 40 years experience in materials engineering, root cause investigations, physical and chemical analysis, and materials integration. So don't dilute my message because this is not the sandbox I race in. I have worked with OEMs on highly sophisticated, difficult to understand, elusive problems, to solve their and self induced issues. This is not easy, there are so many things that cannot be controlled, only observed, and the ability of suppliers to control all of these without any intended changes is way beyond what seems reasonable and expected. Unless you have lived this outside of this forum, you have no clue that the expectations set here are unreasonable and just will not and cannot happen. The techniques used here are sound and display good engineering and root cause investigative processes. Bashing JK here has no positive impact, it will not make any difference because there is no way the face of JK can meet these unreasonable, impossibly high expectations. What can be learned is that there is information here that is valuable and should be taken in because the user has control of taking precautions to be sure that the com and brushes are thoroughly cleaned after a common time reducing break in method. Take this and use it to your advantage instead of complaining.

 

See and here lies the issue. It doesn't affect you and to you it is just a bottom dollar $14 motor which you are semi-correct on. However to a slot car manufacturer it is a steady $30K - $40K annual net producer for said company. There are plenty of ISO vendors for this series of motors and so much of it is off the shelf. Yes, it is mass produced, but there are QC documents from the vendor for each component which the majority of is an OEM piece. I don't think the majority is looking for a $14 motor that is built to the standards of a $100 motor. But I can guarantee that they are not looking for an uninvited degrading back end PM from the mfg., either. It is for sure a buy at risk piece, but I know for a fact that the vendor will listen to potential issues, after all this series of motor powers a lot of medical array rotation assemblies in $50K invasive ultrasound probes and scopes.

 

It costs very little to perform a root cause analysis test on this motor. Since we want to measure engineer qualifications, it is engineering 101 to disassemble and troubleshoot each component, after all the mfg. has the specs from the vendor. This is a 7-figure slotcar company that is run with minimal employee overhead (as it should be). The mfg. should be doing due diligence for the simple fact that is a net income producer and a massive industry consumable. The $14 part is the focus of the consumer, not the manufacturer.


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Matt Sheldon

#44 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:34 PM

JJ, I just bought 10 motors with no balance marks? What about the rest of you cats? Look at your new motors do any have balance marks. Or did I just happen to get 10 balanced motors?


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#45 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:48 PM

JJ I just bought 10 motors with no balance marks? What about the rest of you cats. Look at your new motors do any have balance marks. Or did I just happen to get 10 balanced motors?

My latest 9 that I have and am going through are not balanced. The ones I have had in the past that did not show balance marks performed just fine.

 

5EAB8623-A720-4F26-8C4D-C3A5F46823B1.jpeg


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Matt Sheldon

#46 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

What batch of Simple Green are you using Bryan?  :)

    I don't know whether it's true or not but I've been told there is a PURPLE Simple Green and some have also thinned the green stuff.  I use the regular concentrated Simple Green as sold at Home Depot, Lowes, etc and I think that is what most others used also.

    At the 2017 Checkpoint Cup I used water break in and qualified 6th at 4.032 and ran 328 laps to finish 5th.

    At the 2017 Summer Western Classic I used the Simple Green and qualified 7th at 4.034 and ran 334 laps to finish 6th.

  You certainly can't draw any conclusion from this and I don't know if Simple Green is better than water break in but Simple green is just quicker. I have yet to see a proven way you can speed up a slow motor with any break in method but there must be a million ways you can kill a good motor!


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#47 The Number of

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

See you don't need balanced armatures if you break them in correctly! :)
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Bill Fulmer

The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#48 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:43 PM

You can always count on slot car racers to create drama about something.

 

I think it's time to list my stuff in the Swap Shop.


Rollin Isbell
 


#49 usadar

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:36 PM

It is difficult to evaluate the performance of Retro Hawks until you have broken them in properly with power-supplies then put them on cars on track.
It would be nice for JK Products to test one out of 100 or 500 Retro Hawks imported from China on track.
Pick up a few raceways who run retro racing programs on Gerding Kings, such as Buena Park, Port Jefferson, NJ SpeedZone.
Ask such racers as Bryan Warmack, Chubby and Matt Bruce to test samples on their cars on track.
Better communication with racers and raceways would improve the present situation of Retro Hawks.
Happy Holidays from Retro Tokyo,
Haruki


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Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
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Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#50 Mr. M

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:36 PM

Matt, where is this: But I can guarantee that they are not looking for an uninvited degrading back end PM from the mfg., either.
Chris McCarty





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