Jump to content




Photo

JK takes another swipe at racers


  • Please log in to reply
319 replies to this topic

#26 Ramcatlarry

Ramcatlarry

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,055 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Charles, IL 60174

Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:55 PM

I do not think the Chinese recognize ISO 9000 QC standards. You get what they sell you, no recourse.


  • Tex and Terry like this

Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... (for now)
race directing around Chicago-land

USRA 2017 member #404
USSCA  member

Host 2006 ISRA/USA
Great Lakes Slot Car Club member
60+ year pin Racing rail/slot cars in America





#27 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 333 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:34 PM

I am in no way saying Tim should eat what he has purchased so far. That would be an awful business decision. But when he tells racers to send them in for evaluation he has created a situation that he cant win. He says they are fine the racer feel hurt. He says they are bad and replaces them then everyone will send in slow motors. He loses either way. But when he off re this service it are the racers who end up losing the most. Im sorry if he wanted praise or thanks, buying a company that sells race parts is the wrong place to do it. There will always be complaints and issues. With that said blaming your customer base might not be the best way to sell more.....or calling people henchmen. The same people who go to races who push your motors as their flagship motor

The organizations that use these motors are the ones that need to step up and only allow motors that people can buy from shops in the blisters. Then and only then will the playing field be level. If you cant buy it off a shelf you cant run it. Simple as that. There was no question when it was a proslot motor being disallowed at races. Saying its time has come to an end. Its the same now. Old mystical batches of motors are gone. Move on and simplify it to one version that is actually still in production
  • Samiam likes this
Jason Engel

#28 crazyphysicsteacher

crazyphysicsteacher

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 157 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ

Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

I believe part of the problem here is that a change was made to the motors. Somewhere, someone made a change. Whether it was done on purpose or not, we can all agree there was a change. Now, how to handle the change is the question. I like sealed motors for the same reason John S does, less time to spend on building and parts. I also understand brush problems, I throw out about every 3rd pair of brushes I use because they have problems when run.
What has to happen is a big statement of admitting what happened. Then we can move on. People will forgive. But until then, this will continue and I think it may not be good for jk or others. I saw the test report, the test motor had the same glue I have been seeing on recent motors. I have seen the same result as in the photos, one brush is worn more than the other, way more. I know brushes wear i even, but the hawk motors have always been fairly consistent to me in brush wear. I do believe this may be a new build practice, but if the glue holds the spring back, lower pressure on the com will lead to blacking of the comm and also deposits that will insulate it. Just my two cents, but what do I know.
  • usadar likes this

Chris Wendel
Silver Side Down Racing
Silver Side Down Graphics

​The Race Place Retro Crew member

"Failure teaches way more than success. It shows what does not work and what to never do again, again..." 🙊🙈🙉  


#29 Fast Freddie

Fast Freddie

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 624 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 08

Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

I find it amazing that something so simple, yes a pun is meant, has been made so hard to understand.  If you read the Facebook troubleshooting piece it covered soaking the motor in Simple  Green to quick break-in time to long break-in times to water break-in but where was the suggested procedure that Matt Bruce developed, I didn't see it did you??  Take notice also that all the run in voltages are above the recommended 5 volts, why is that??  I also offered one more step that should be mandatory in the process and that is to make sure the comm. slots are clean before any final break-in or track use.  So here we go boys and girls one more time the way I do it;

 

 

I use a clean yogurt cup (Yoplait) for the Simple Green and the bottom half of a bottled water container for the water.

 

Hook up the motor to your power supply and put the motor into the SG container place power to 3 volts for 7 sec turn off power and check brush seating.  You may need another 3-5 seconds at the 3 volts to get the brushes fully seated.  when the brushes are fully seated put the motor into the water turn the pwr supply to 3 volts for no more than 3 sec.  That dunk in the water will remove most of the Simple Green.

 

Now flush the motor out very good with your favorite motor flush.  I usually rotate the arm by hand during this process to make sure I get the water out and any Simple Green that may have been left behind.

 

Blow the motor out with air.  I use low pressure compressor air or canned air.

 

Inspect the comm. slots.  If they are dirty I use a sharpened wooden toothpick to clean out the brush material if they are clean your good to go.  I give the motor another spray of motor cleaner to flush that out.

 

I usually let the motor sit for a few minutes before final break-in.  Final break-in is 2 minutes at 3 volts.  Then check the comm. slots one last time to make sure they are clean.

 

By the way in the JK Facebook piece they mention that the Simple Green can get between the brushes and comm., so if that's true then so can the water and motor flush.  When this process is done right there is no Simple Green left on the brushes and the comm. comes out looking just fine, but you have to do it right.  My way is just that and it works for me, it can also work for you.

 

One more thing on the JK Facebook troubleshooting piece, the motor they are using appears to have a total of 7+ hours of break-in on it and it still isn't fully broken in.


  • usadar, Frankie Schaffier and crazyphysicsteacher like this
Fred Younkin

#30 Fast Freddie

Fast Freddie

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 624 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 08

Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:01 PM

JJ here's an answer to your question.  I to have a couple of motors with no balancing marks.  They are rather smooth running so I guess they passed the tech inspection specs.  I'm sure there are parameters they have to meet and if the arm is within those parameters they don't take the time to make it better.


  • JK Products likes this
Fred Younkin

#31 Brinkley47

Brinkley47

    A winner is a loser who gave it one more try

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 829 posts
  • Joined: 18-August 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Murfreesboro, TN

Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:16 PM

Am I the only one who feels Tim answered questions no one asked in his report?

He also avoided the common questions asked over and over. Why are they slower? Why does a brand new out of package motor shift?

I feel like he jumped on the break in process (racer problem) vs. a manufacturer problem. I sincerely think the new changes with the new batch of motors are the problem. The brushes are too hard for a toothbrush, much less a slot car motor.

The racers are simply adjusting (different break in methods) to the nonsense we have been given.

Sincerely,
Frustrated racer about to pull the plug on his retro program
  • Frankie Schaffier likes this
Will Brinkley
willbrinkley@gmail.com

#32 Tim Wilkins

Tim Wilkins

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,053 posts
  • Joined: 22-February 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northridge, CA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:33 PM

"Pull the plug on your Retro Program?"  Will, you just had a great Fall Brawl.  Get away from the computer for a while and enjoy your Holiday Season.  Things will work out.


  • JimF, olescratch, Tim Wood and 1 other like this

"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#33 Mr. M

Mr. M

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 188 posts
  • Joined: 04-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida Space Coast

Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:33 PM

I find the discussion here interesting and disturbing at the same time. No, I do not race retro, but I am an electrical engineer with over 40 years experience in materials engineering, root cause investigations, physical and chemical analysis, and materials integration. So don't dilute my message because this is not the sandbox I race in. I have worked with OEMs on highly sophisticated, difficult to understand, elusive problems, to solve their and self induced issues. This is not easy, there are so many things that cannot be controlled, only observed, and the ability of suppliers to control all of these without any intended changes is way beyond what seems reasonable and expected. Unless you have lived this outside of this forum, you have no clue that the expectations set here are unreasonable and just will not and cannot happen. The techniques used here are sound and display good engineering and root cause investigative processes. Bashing JK here has no positive impact, it will not make any difference because there is no way the face of JK can meet these unreasonable, impossibly high expectations. What can be learned is that there is information here that is valuable and should be taken in because the user has control of taking precautions to be sure that the com and brushes are thoroughly cleaned after a common time reducing break in method. Take this and use it to your advantage instead of complaining.
  • Arne Saknussem, tonyp, JerseyJohn and 12 others like this
Chris McCarty

#34 Racer36

Racer36

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 727 posts
  • Joined: 09-October 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:49 PM

Matt Sheldon and Mr. M bring some great insight and rational thinking to this conversation. Lets hope they stick with us.

I will say after re-reading the report that if there is one fault, it is that Tim has a rather abrupt way of writing messages and reports . Not a slam by any means, but he communicates like a lot of the engineers I have worked with over the past 15 years and it can put people off if they are not used to it.

I support what he is trying to do regardless. 


  • JerseyJohn likes this

Dennis Dominey

Lifelong half-assed slot racer


#35 Jimmy Williams

Jimmy Williams

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 27 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York

Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:11 PM

The report is a start, but very far away from the finish. What I would like to see, and this will probably do or prove nothing, but I would like to Jerry Kulich's input on this. See if he thinks things went sour or if he believes things are going in the right direction.

 

My biggest discrepancy is not just returning to the r motors. Even after the first batch of legal 7r motors came out, it was clear they were inferior so a simple "I'm sorry an experiment I tried was unsuccessful" would have fixed things and a revert to the old motors would have been the best decision. But knowing they are chinese arms, a revert probably isn't as simple as it seems.


  • Danny Zona likes this

#36 raisin27

raisin27

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 415 posts
  • Joined: 11-March 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Garden City, MI

Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:12 PM

I find it interesting that in my first discussion with JK he dismissed my findings because he (mistakenly) thought I had run my motors only on a power supply and dyno and had not run them on the track.


  • race301 and The Number of like this

Michael Garrett

 

Proud to drive an American car, from an American manufacturer, assembled by American workers.

 

 I own a car from each of the big 3, I have a Ford, a Mercury, and a Lincoln.


#37 Bryan Warmack

Bryan Warmack

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,566 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:47 PM

FWIW, out here in SoCal, at the last two major SCRRA races at Buena Park Raceway (2017 Parma Checkpoint Cup and Summer Western Classic) we have been running a hand-out motor format in Can Am using the JK Hawk Retro 7R7R that has worked remarkably well with an absolute minimum of problems and virtually zero complaints from the racers.
 
The SCRRA (and most of the racers) felt the hand-out program was in the best interests of everyone concerned as it hopefully limited everyone to using motors from the same batch. This was only for Can-Am and the SCRRA will be doing the exact same thing with the Hawk 7R7R motors at the upcoming Parma Checkpoint Cup in January at the end of next month.
 
Also, FWIW, at the Summer Western Classic last July, many racers broke in their motors using Simple Green with many methods being used. Personally I used a 9 volt battery and ran them for 7 seconds submerged and then cleaned out thoroughly. I'm sure there were almost as many methods as racers and I didn't hear of one complaint about any break in issues with the Simple Green.  :)


  • Tim Neja, JimF, JerseyJohn and 1 other like this

#38 olescratch

olescratch

    olescratch

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 730 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ravenna, OH

Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:49 PM

Take a break, go build some Thingies, and power them with the turds!  We just like to see our creations MOVE, they don't have to break records, and the day is filled with FUN which seems to be lacking in the racing veins of this HOBBY!  And NO, I don't race, haven't since 1969, too much stress.  As a matter of fact, this will be the last time I view any post on this subject.  It just seems to be re-hashing the same garbage.  What would happen if all the people that think that these motors suck, stop buying them!  Sound like a bunch of addicts!  Just don't play the game!  BTW, has anyone studied the effect of inhaling vapors from Simple Green, has on the human body?  Test that before you begin to practice using chemicals in unintended methods!  


John Stewart

#39 Eddie Fleming

Eddie Fleming

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,055 posts
  • Joined: 27-April 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayetteville, GA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:56 PM

Also, FWIW, at the Summer Western Classic last July, many racers broke-in their motors using Simple Green with many methods being used. Personally I used a 9 volt battery and ran them for 7 seconds submerged and then cleaned out thoroughly. I'm sure there were almost as many methods as racers and I didn't hear of one complaint about any break-in issues with the Simple Green.  :)

 

What batch of Simple Green are you using, Bryan?  :)


  • swodem likes this
Eddie Fleming

#40 Tex

Tex

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,945 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denton, TX

Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:05 PM

He also avoided the common questions asked over and over. Why are they slower? Why does a brand new out of package motor shift?

 
What makes you think he actually knows the answers? He is an importer... he buys motors in bulk, imports them, and sells them. Obviously, something changed with some/most of the motors. Can you tell by looking? Does being an importer give him special powers to divine the answer?

 

More than any of y'all, I'm sure he wishes things hadn't gone the way they have; his liveihood is on the line.


  • Mike Patterson and Tom Eatherly like this
Richard L. Hofer

Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! Only you're a block over and a block behind.

#41 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 706 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:13 PM

What batch of Simple Green are you using, Bryan?  :)

 

Hahahaha - that's gold!!


  • CoastalAngler1 likes this

#42 gc4895

gc4895

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Walnut Creek, CA

Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:20 PM

Really wish these motors were 1/2 second faster. They would be sold out and trading on eBay at big premiums. A few racers would be bitching about what to do with old motors but that would soon be forgotten. These should come only in sealed 10 motor packs like Pokémon cards. Open the pack to hope to get 1 or 2 fast ones, a couple good and 6 or 7 plain Janes. I think JK only messes up if these come out slower. Everybody likes faster.
Mark Bauer

#43 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:22 PM

I find the discussion here interesting and disturbing at the same time. No, I do not race retro, but I am an electrical engineer with over 40 years experience in materials engineering, root cause investigations, physical and chemical analysis, and materials integration. So don't dilute my message because this is not the sandbox I race in. I have worked with OEMs on highly sophisticated, difficult to understand, elusive problems, to solve their and self induced issues. This is not easy, there are so many things that cannot be controlled, only observed, and the ability of suppliers to control all of these without any intended changes is way beyond what seems reasonable and expected. Unless you have lived this outside of this forum, you have no clue that the expectations set here are unreasonable and just will not and cannot happen. The techniques used here are sound and display good engineering and root cause investigative processes. Bashing JK here has no positive impact, it will not make any difference because there is no way the face of JK can meet these unreasonable, impossibly high expectations. What can be learned is that there is information here that is valuable and should be taken in because the user has control of taking precautions to be sure that the com and brushes are thoroughly cleaned after a common time reducing break in method. Take this and use it to your advantage instead of complaining.

 

See and here lies the issue. It doesn't affect you and to you it is just a bottom dollar $14 motor which you are semi-correct on. However to a slot car manufacturer it is a steady $30K - $40K annual net producer for said company. There are plenty of ISO vendors for this series of motors and so much of it is off the shelf. Yes, it is mass produced, but there are QC documents from the vendor for each component which the majority of is an OEM piece. I don't think the majority is looking for a $14 motor that is built to the standards of a $100 motor. But I can guarantee that they are not looking for an uninvited degrading back end PM from the mfg., either. It is for sure a buy at risk piece, but I know for a fact that the vendor will listen to potential issues, after all this series of motor powers a lot of medical array rotation assemblies in $50K invasive ultrasound probes and scopes.

 

It costs very little to perform a root cause analysis test on this motor. Since we want to measure engineer qualifications, it is engineering 101 to disassemble and troubleshoot each component, after all the mfg. has the specs from the vendor. This is a 7-figure slotcar company that is run with minimal employee overhead (as it should be). The mfg. should be doing due diligence for the simple fact that is a net income producer and a massive industry consumable. The $14 part is the focus of the consumer, not the manufacturer.


  • Jason Holmes, crazyphysicsteacher and Danny Zona like this
Matt Sheldon

#44 Pat Skeggs

Pat Skeggs

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 13

Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:34 PM

JJ, I just bought 10 motors with no balance marks? What about the rest of you cats? Look at your new motors do any have balance marks. Or did I just happen to get 10 balanced motors?


  • JerseyJohn likes this

#45 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:48 PM

JJ I just bought 10 motors with no balance marks? What about the rest of you cats. Look at your new motors do any have balance marks. Or did I just happen to get 10 balanced motors?

My latest 9 that I have and am going through are not balanced. The ones I have had in the past that did not show balance marks performed just fine.

 

5EAB8623-A720-4F26-8C4D-C3A5F46823B1.jpeg


  • Pat Skeggs likes this
Matt Sheldon

#46 Bryan Warmack

Bryan Warmack

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,566 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

What batch of Simple Green are you using Bryan?  :)

    I don't know whether it's true or not but I've been told there is a PURPLE Simple Green and some have also thinned the green stuff.  I use the regular concentrated Simple Green as sold at Home Depot, Lowes, etc and I think that is what most others used also.

    At the 2017 Checkpoint Cup I used water break in and qualified 6th at 4.032 and ran 328 laps to finish 5th.

    At the 2017 Summer Western Classic I used the Simple Green and qualified 7th at 4.034 and ran 334 laps to finish 6th.

  You certainly can't draw any conclusion from this and I don't know if Simple Green is better than water break in but Simple green is just quicker. I have yet to see a proven way you can speed up a slow motor with any break in method but there must be a million ways you can kill a good motor!


  • tonyp, Tim Neja, Jason Holmes and 3 others like this

#47 The Number of

The Number of

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,502 posts
  • Joined: 29-February 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

See you don't need balanced armatures if you break them in correctly! :)
  • Matt Sheldon likes this
Bill Fulmer

The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#48 Wizard Of Iz

Wizard Of Iz

    Slot Parrothead

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,441 posts
  • Joined: 15-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL

Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:43 PM

You can always count on slot car racers to create drama about something.

 

I think it's time to list my stuff in the Swap Shop.


Rollin Isbell
 


#49 usadar

usadar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,144 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo; Japan

Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:36 PM

It is difficult to evaluate the performance of Retro Hawks until you have broken them in properly with power-supplies then put them on cars on track.
It would be nice for JK Products to test one out of 100 or 500 Retro Hawks imported from China on track.
Pick up a few raceways who run retro racing programs on Gerding Kings, such as Buena Park, Port Jefferson, NJ SpeedZone.
Ask such racers as Bryan Warmack, Chubby and Matt Bruce to test samples on their cars on track.
Better communication with racers and raceways would improve the present situation of Retro Hawks.
Happy Holidays from Retro Tokyo,
Haruki


  • Tim Neja, eshorer, Jason Holmes and 6 others like this
Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo on Facebook
 
Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#50 Mr. M

Mr. M

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 188 posts
  • Joined: 04-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida Space Coast

Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:36 PM

Matt, where is this: But I can guarantee that they are not looking for an uninvited degrading back end PM from the mfg., either.
Chris McCarty





Electric Dreams Online Shop