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JK takes another swipe at racers


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#51 Mr. M

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:08 AM

Matt,

What issue would the vendor listen to and why would the small volume and unique corner application here be important enough to take any action? Any application, like medical, would use a servo control loop that measures a controlled rate and position that would not depend on extracting the highest level of performance which is of interest here. In fact, the design of such a device would be to make it independent of motor performance.

I am not sure what root cause analysis you are thinking needs to be performed. The JK report answers why the 2 step observation can occur. To just dismiss this is to read and interpret without objectivity.
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#52 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 01:04 AM

What issue would the vendor listen to and why would the small volume and unique corner application here be important enough to take any action? Any application, like medical, would use a servo control loop that measures a controlled rate and position that would not depend on extracting the highest level of performance which is of interest here. In fact, the design of such a device would be to make it independent of motor performance.

I am not sure what root cause analysis you are thinking needs to be performed. The JK report answers why the 2 step observation can occur. To just dismiss this is to read and interpret without objectivity.

 

You are incorrect, but I am not going to debate the FK motor application within TEE transducers here, but will be glad to do so within PM. As the second largest medical ultrasound transducer repair facility in the world and 19 patents to our name, I know what my application requires.

 

For those that do not use the Simple Green method, it is very easy to dismiss the mfg.'s findings.


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#53 Jaeger Team

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:02 AM

Has anyone tried to use a mixture of Simple Green and water?


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#54 Mr. M

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 06:48 AM

Matt,

On what point am I incorrect?

What issue needs to be addressed?

What root cause analysis needs to be performed?
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#55 Dominator

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 08:46 AM

Simple Green comes in a concentrate so it needs to be diluted with water (50/50 mix).


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#56 tonyp

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:04 AM

And no one can stress enough getting it completely out of the motor and the pores of the brushes especially where the brush is touching the comm.


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#57 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:27 AM

Someone correct me if I am wrong. The reason for using SG is it is quick? Water is a little less quick but without the cleanup problems.

 

Is there something else I am missing or would clean water be a better choice?

 

Counting cleanup time I am not sure water takes any longer.


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#58 Samiam

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:01 AM

Has anyone compared what these motors do on different track voltages? Bryan reports less issues on the left coast. I believe they run sub 13 volts. Some other tracks are running as high as 14.2 volts.

 

I'm waiting for a Hawk/Hawk 6 with a 65t/#30 wind and a JK seal to show up. Then when they need to be rebuilt we can run them in Anglewinders. Better than throwing them away.


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#59 Brinkley47

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:17 AM

Someone correct me if I am wrong. The reason for using SG is it is quick? Water is a little less quick but without the cleanup problems.
 
Is there something else I am missing or would clean water be a better choice?
 
Counting cleanup time I am not sure water takes any longer.

 

Water has very little impact to the new brush material. I ran one under water for an hour at RetroPalooza and it did not even make a difference. That is why people switched to something more aggressive (Simple Green).


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#60 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:38 AM

Damn. I didn't realize the new brushes were that water resistant.

Has anyone tried Purple Power or an acid etching cleaner?

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#61 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:51 AM

JJ, I just bought 10 motors with no balance marks? What about the rest of you cats? Look at your new motors do any have balance marks. Or did I just happen to get 10 balanced motors?

 

That's my only issue, Pat. The R motors and the first batch of or 7R had balance marks. I would like to know why the difference. 


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#62 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:26 PM

Maybe they raise the tolerance level higher. Or they fired the guy at the plant who does it. With that said I personally am not having a big problem with these motors. If I buy 10 motors I usually find two that are good to race with the others I just use for my weekly races. But I am curious on why there are no marks anymore can you guys give a look at your motives and see if me John and Matt are the only ones with this problem.

#63 Fast Freddie

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:35 PM

Did you guys miss the fact that Simple Green is a "cleaner" and as such can be washed away with water, the second step in the break-in process is to flush the motor with water.  If you dunk the motor in a container of water and run the motor for a few seconds the motor virtually cleans itself and that includes the brushes.

 

One more thing that has gone unmentioned.  When you use the Simple Green method there is no heat applied to the comm.  As most racers know the comms. are relatively soft and are not at their best, friction wise, until they are annealed.  The only way to anneal a comm. is with heat.  That's why many motors have better performance after they have been run through track testing sessions. 


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#64 Brinkley47

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:40 PM

Maybe they raise the tolerance level higher. Or they fired the guy at the plant who does it. With that said I personally am not having a big problem with these motors. If I buy 10 motors I usually find two that are good to race with the others I just use for my weekly races. But I am curious on why there are no marks anymore can you guys give a look at your motives and see if me John and Matt are the only ones with this problem.

761b5748bad7601c89181e78f09653cd.jpgmy handout from the fall brawl has balance marks.



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#65 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 01:36 PM

Maybe they raise the tolerance level higher. Or they fired the guy at the plant who does it. With that said I personally am not having a big problem with these motors. If I buy 10 motors I usually find two or three that are good to race with the others I just use for my weekly races. I had about the same ratio with the r motors. It seems with these motors you get a good batch you get a bad batch, presently we are in a bad batch.

#66 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 02:09 PM

I just looked at my Fall Brawl motors. 1 did have marks. All 3 motors from that race were pigs. But I'm talking about recent purchases, within the last 3 weeks. I might go to Port Jeff later and look at all the motors on the wall to see if any have marks. I don't know if it's just me but I remember 7 out of 10 motors use to have marks. Now hardly any. I can tell you this is true because Sean and I used to look for the motors that did not have the marks because we felt they were balanced better because they passed the tolerance percentage. Sometimes we used to go through 10 motors just a fine a couple that did not have the marks, now it seems that hardly any have balance and marks on them.

   This could be something or it could be nothing. All I know is that I have a Lotta fun racing with you fellas. And if it wasn't for this motor I would've been out of slot racing. Because it $50 a pop you can't afford to buy more than two motors at a time and sometimes those two motors were pigs.and then you send it away to get refurbished only to get back the same pig that you sent out. So even though I am not completely satisfied with this motor it is a lot better than we had. Do I think the r motors are better? I don't think so. They might have been faster but they were inconsistent. That's why we went to this new motor to have more consistency but that's what we don't have . So we're back to square one. Let's hope the next batch of motors are good ones.


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#67 Don Weaver

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:43 PM

 My two cents:

 

I began slot racing in 1966 and have participated off and on for over 50 years.  While I enjoy Retro racing and was active in SERRA and currently I am part of the Doghouse Raceway gang in Lexington, SC my real interests lie in building replicas of cars from the early years.

 

This back an forth over the 7R motor is all fine and well but I think an important part is being overlooked and that is the interest and efforts that Tim has undertaken to work through this problem.  I have read this entire thread as well as Tim's 27 page explanation of his approach to finding out was is causing the problem with these motors.  Agree or not with his report he has gone way beyond the efforts of many other manufacturers that I have dealt with in the past.  When complaining once about 0.002 thick bodies to a manufacturer I was simply told it was the best he could do and just buy another one.  Never bought another body from this guy.  Another time when complaining about set screws stripping out frequently I was told I needed to learn how to turn a wrench - trust me, I've been doing this for 50+ years and I know how to do that.   And there have been other examples along the way.

 

While searching for a solution I think we would all be better off and more likely to find a solution with less personal criticism of Tim and more effort to work together.  I think the slot racing community has a real winner in Tim based on what I've seen of his efforts since he took over JK Products.  Give the guy a chance and ​HELP​ him be the supplier/partner you want.

 

I personally have no real stake in this as I mostly use 16D and 26D motors in my builds but I would hate to see Tim lose his enthusiasm and obvious interest in our little toy cars over this issue.  Again, HELP​.....this ain't a us vs. them deal.

 

Don Weaver


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#68 swodem

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:47 PM

Down here, aside from FK motors, we run S16D, C-Can G12 and the occasional Strap ES24

 

I know plenty of guys who spend time building S16D and G12 motors, to the highest degree, Beuf balancing, the whole lot and every motor is different. yet they are taking repeatability to a high level.

 

I see guys on here selling full, professional motor programs, 20 or 30 different motors and each has a tested and noted different characteristic.

 

So please explain why you expect any mass-produced motor to be consistent? I am sure from a MFG point of view they are within 'spec' for their production. 

 

If you have a two-step motor thats faulty out of the packet, and has such a vibration its hard to rev past a certain RPM, then just return it from where you got it from as a faulty motor, for refund or replacement. You have rights as a consumer.

 

Otherwise, then I hate to tell you, the bell curve will always be, whether its electric motors, petrol motors, chassis, boat hulls, tyres, rifle barrels, violins - whatever. When you explore the limits, some items will always be 'better' than others.

 

In the case of the 7R7R7R motors being slower, that's essentially then a different batch and should be treated as such and the rules amended to suit. I think I do recall JK Products attempted to change their production of either the H7 or HR at some time around 12 months ago and got refused by the IRRA, perhaps this change has just quietly slipped by anyway?


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#69 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:03 PM

761b5748bad7601c89181e78f09653cd.jpgmy handout from the fall brawl has balance marks.



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#70 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:05 PM

I just looked at my Fall Brawl motors. 1 did have marks. All 3 motors from that race were pigs. But I'm talking about recent purchases, within the last 3 weeks. I might go to Port Jeff later and look at all the motors on the wall to see if any have marks. I don't know if it's just me but I remember 7 out of 10 motors use to have marks. Now hardly any. I can tell you this is true because Sean and I used to look for the motors that did not have the marks because we felt they were balanced better because they passed the tolerance percentage. Sometimes we used to go through 10 motors just a fine a couple that did not have the marks, now it seems that hardly any have balance and marks on them.

   This could be something or it could be nothing. All I know is that I have a Lotta fun racing with you fellas. And if it wasn't for this motor I would've been out of slot racing. Because it $50 a pop you can't afford to buy more than two motors at a time and sometimes those two motors were pigs.and then you send it away to get refurbished only to get back the same pig that you sent out. So even though I am not completely satisfied with this motor it is a lot better than we had. Do I think the r motors are better? I don't think so. They might have been faster but they were inconsistent. That's why we went to this new motor to have more consistency but that's what we don't have . So we're back to square one. Let's hope the next batch of motors are good ones.

I pretty much agree with Pat. Im just curious about the balancing.. 


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#71 Half Fast

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:32 PM

 

   All I know is that I have a Lotta fun racing with you fellas. And if it wasn't for this motor I would've been out of slot racing. Because it $50 a pop you can't afford to buy more than two motors at a time and sometimes those two motors were pigs.and then you send it away to get refurbished only to get back the same pig that you sent out. So even though I am not completely satisfied with this motor it is a lot better than we had. Do I think the r motors are better? I don't think so. They might have been faster but they were inconsistent. That's why we went to this new motor to have more consistency but that's what we don't have . So we're back to square one. Let's hope the next batch of motors are good ones.

 

 

My feelings exactly!

 

To those with complaints against JK, please tell me what other slot manufacturer would bother to write a 26 page analysis of issues pointed out by racers?

 

Cheers


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#72 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:12 PM

Just came from Port Jeff, tested 5 new motors.Very slow, all 5. Then I asked Mike behind the counter to check the motors he had on the wall for balance marks. There were about 15 of them. Guess what , 0 marks. 15 motors all balance? Plus the 10 that I bought. That's 25 with no marks? What's up with that.


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#73 Dan Ebert

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:53 PM

I decided to give 3 of the 4 motors a try again.  But this time they were loaded into Retro Can Ams.  The OCC GT1 cars are a spec gearing of 10/36.  So with the thinking maybe those motors may come to life with different gearing.   { OCC GT1, 10/36  .790 tires  }  I geared all 3 cars 9/27 pretty standard gearing on a Retro Car.  2 of the cars responded to the different gearing.  Both good enough to run in house races or try on different tracks on different power.   The third motor ran just below what I would call an average RH motor.  After reading the talk on balance marks.  I checked the motors.  The 2 decent motors  were balanced.  The third motor had no visible balance marks.  I am seeing that the some of new motors do not like certain gear ratios.   So not a complete loss.  But I have 16 more to try.  I will be devoting a day soon of Motor testing at the track to see what I have.


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#74 swodem

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:37 PM

Further thinking on this topic, why doesn't one or more of you (I dont use HR motors so I have none) get an old HR thats past its use-by, and a new one from the 'average' batch, clearly mark the arm from the old batch with a sharpie or similar, pull them apart and inspect any differences in

 

1. the Endbell and brush springs,

2. Arm stack dia. and magnet air gap

3. Magnets and gauss readings

4. Unwind the stacks and count the winds, and measure the wire length and thickness

5. Comm timing

6. stack shape, design, naked weight without the wire

7. Report back your findings

 

That would be a good place to start before claiming there are any differences

 

If there are genuine physical differences, then clearly this is a new motor and not an HR!!


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#75 swodem

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:59 PM

....One more thing that has gone unmentioned.  When you use the Simple Green method there is no heat applied to the comm.  As most racers know the comms. are relatively soft and are not at their best, friction wise, until they are annealed.  The only way to anneal a comm. is with heat.  That's why many motors have better performance after they have been run through track testing sessions. 

 

Are you SURE this annealing happens? Do you know this or just surmising?

 

I would not think the comm gets anywhere near the temperature required. Below copied from a technical website;

 

"Annealing copper requires a high temperature. Copper melts at 1357Kelvin and annealing generally occurs at greater than half the melting point in degrees K; even higher temperature causes faster annealing (but not past the melting temperature, of course). Typical temperature to use is 400C or 700F. Annealing causes the structure to create and grow new grains that are free of strain. The new grains remove all dislocations and other defects caused by the deformation, thus leaving the material in its original soft condition, although NOT in its original shape—it will still be the same shape as after deformation, but can be easily bent again. Annealing takes time and temperature..."



#76 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 07:25 AM

Annealed copper is not what we are after. We want hard comms.

Copper doesn't harden by heating and cooling the way steel does. It has the exact opposite effect. The only way I know of is to work harden like hammering or coining.

"Note there are six tempers designated by ASTM B370 as: 060 (soft), H00 (cold rolled), H01 (cold rolled, high yield), H02 (half hard), H03 (three quarter hard), and H04 (hard)."

I've no idea which is best for our application but I'd start with the hardest material and go from there.

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#77 Samiam

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 11:07 AM

   Let's keep in mind that Tim has no control over the parts that go into these motors. He can only specify which ones and how they are assembled. He gets the same cans, bushings, endbells, magnets, armature blanks, commutators and wire that the millions of industrial purpose motors are made from. 
   He tightened up manufacturing tolerances to make them more consistent. Number of winds, balance, degrees of advance. He did this because racers were complaining about inconsistencies in racing performance. Could he specify the motors all perform exactly the same in an application they really were never designed for? Absolutely not! If this process is unacceptable to some racers I suggest you go bowling, play bingo, or form a poker league. But don't try another form of racing that limits the power plant. ANY FORM! Because from RC to local dirt track racing you will run into the exact same issue with any kind of powered racing. Unless you get into unlimited off shore racing. Or unlimited tractor pulling. But prepare to spend a little more than $12.95 for your motors. 

(note:post edited by mod to indicate the correct retail price) 
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#78 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 12:25 PM

Sam makes a good point.  I don't have a horse in this race (I refuse to use the more common "dog in this fight" It references a practice I consider abhorrent)  In my slot racing world, wheelbase, track, and tire dimensions are measured to the mm, bodies are hard and to scale but, in general, motors are your choice.  I do have some experience in device and instrument manufacturing, both here in the US and in the far East and that is the basis for my comment.

 

Demming taught that one can investigate component and process variations, determine which have the greatest influence on product quality and establish controls accordingly.  These variations can be identified, measured and mitigated but they cannot be eliminated - "zero" tolerance is a myth.

 

Looking at the product under discussion here, one can start a very long list of sources of variation: the dies used for forming the can and stamping armature laminations are subject to wear and beyond a certain point will need to be restored or replaced.  The magnets are subject to variations in composition, casting and sintering.  The tension applied to wire during armature winding will change and the thickness of the insulation on the wire itself can vary etc. etc......

 

Assuming all of these factors are well within spec, there is another point to consider: stacking.  If we assume that each variation from the target specification will have a positive or negative effect on the outcome, in this case motor performance however it is measured, then, because we have no control over how the variations of each component or process are assorted (e.g. +-+-+-+-, ++++--++. ---++--- etc) we must accept the fact that, in any given "batch" most motors will be good, some will be very good and some will be bad.  Even 100% testing will only narrow this dispersion, not eliminate it.  The more typical statistical sampling will only reveal a major system-wide failure.

 

In some ways this reminds me of an observation made in 1:1 racing in the 50's.  It was a lot harder and often more expensive to prepare a competitive "production" race car than it was to do the same for what we called the "modified" classes.

 

EM


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#79 glueside

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 06:38 PM

This continual bashing of JK from people who have alliterative motives is becoming pure bulls**t.  If you don't like the motor/manufacturer - shut up and stop racing their products.  If you want to race in a series that this is the only choice, either don't run the series or run and enjoy.  I have quit racing because of all of the crying from people about a company that is working extremely hard to make products better for all racing, Tim has went well above what he needs to do to help this cottage industry.  Tim is not taking a swipe at any racer - he is only showing where the issue is coming from and you all don't want to hear it - you only want to bash him.  Pure immature in my opinion.

 

Instead you all want to run motors that a certain person has the seals at their disposal - why is this?


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Jeff Strause

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#80 Don Weaver

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 07:33 PM

.....all of the crying from people about a company that is working extremely hard to make products better for all racing, Tim has went well above what he needs to do to help this cottage industry.

 

Amen !!


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Don Weaver
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#81 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 09:18 PM

This continual bashing of JK from people who have alliterative motives is becoming pure bulls**t. 
 
Instead you all want to run motors that a certain person has the seals at their disposal - why is this?

 

I've heard you and Tim make this claim continuously, as well as call his customers Henchmen and Islamic Jihadists, yet nobody can seem the declare what the alliterir motive is exactly?

Quite frankly this exaggerated claim is bogus, and beyond insulting to all the JK customers such as myself who have supported JK for over 17 years.

As my post stated, I hope he gets this one particular situation, with this one particular product fixed. All were asking for is acknowledgment of the problem, not blaming the racer, and a plan to to correct it. It shouldn't be to hard to say, "Unfortuantely we encountered an unexpected issue with our last batch of Hawk Retro motors and were looking into solving it on the next batch." That's all that had to be said months ago and this would never be an issue IMO.

Are you claiming John Miller is providing or selling Pro Slot seals?


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#82 Samiam

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 09:35 PM

NO, we're saying Ron Hershman has Pro Slot seals in his possession. He is an authorized motor refurb vendor for RETRO racing. So there is absolutely no doubt he has PS seals.

 

OH... let me respond in advance to the question of "So what..?"

 

:laugh2: I repeat... :laugh2:

 

Please read tag line below.


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Sam Levitch
 
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#83 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 09:38 PM

RETRO doesn't allow refurbs, and if you choose to run the Puppy Dog motor (which nobody does) it doesn't have to have a seal.

Once again, fake news.
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#84 Samiam

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 09:53 PM

Taken from the RETRO website:

 

Motor- The following motors are allowed in the RETRO Flexi WSC
class.  Pro-Slot 4002 Sealed, PS-4002 B Sealed, P-S 4002 BB Sealed,
Trinity Evil 9, Fast Ones Demon, JK Hawk 7, Topline Falcon 7, TSR D3, Parma 501
Sealed, Pro-Slot 2002 Sealed, JK Retro Hawk, Pro-Slot 4002 FK

 

P-S 4002, 4002 B and 4002 BB motors may be reconditioned and
resealed by Pro-Slot or Fast Ones.

 

Fake news huh? :laugh2:  


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Sam Levitch
 
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#85 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:04 PM

RETRO has only run one flexi race EVER, and it was hand-out motors, which Chris Radisich won.
 
Also, that doesn't mean Fast Ones can refurb it and put a Pro Slot seal on it. LOL.
 
So yes, fake news/incorrect attempted Hershman bashing which seems to be very popular on a site which he can't defend himself.

#86 Butters37

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:08 PM

Amazing to think that people actually believe some of this stuff LOL. You will never win that battle here, Ralph. Only hearsay and rumors will be spoken about. And actual facts from racers will be make you a henchman or a person trying to put a company out of business.
Jason Engel

#87 Brinkley47

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:11 PM

I have asked for this thread to be deleted/locked. Merry Christmas and Shalom for the New Year.
Will Brinkley
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#88 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:13 PM

We can all sit here, theorize, make claims and pretend to be keyboard experts all we want.

 

It all comes down to this...

 

Does JK feel there is an issue with the current Hawk Retro motors, or are his customers just incompetent?

 

Tim publicly stated he changed the specs on the motor to improve consistency. Sometimes experiments don't work out, we get that.

 

Well respected people in the industry including some close to JK and IRRA BOD members have mentioned some things were changed without  him knowing. Hey, it's China, stuff happens and we get that too.

 

So does JK plan to makes changes to improve the next batch or not? That's all we want to know as racers, track owners and series directors. Once informed we can make our decisions, until then we'll all just sit here and discuss this until we're blue in the face.

 

It's Tim's move, and perosnally I hope he makes some changes so we can continue running these motors we all have.


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#89 Samiam

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:36 PM

Well respected people in the industry including some close to JK and IRRA BOD members have mentioned some things were changed without  him knowing.


Is this "actual facts from racers"? or "hearsay and rumors"?
Sam Levitch
 
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#90 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:44 PM

Is this "actual facts from racers"? or "hear say and rumors"?

 

I'm calling it a fact, because I trust my source, and I can see the difference in brush material first hand.

 

On top of that I believe Greg's claim that Tim never asked to change the brush material (in post #15), and it's obviously different.

 

You can come to your own conclusion.


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#91 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:47 PM

Introducing organic chemicals such as Simple Green or any soap has carbon chain compounds. Tap water has other minerals and unknown contaminents. Submerged liquid break-in means the brushes are heating those chemicals under plasma electrical conditions and all sorts of unknown plating reactions can take place with the copper/brass commutators.  Bearing oils gumming up the reaction further the issue. I am not even certain the electrical cleaners are not the problem.
 
Does China even know what ISO 9000 QC is all about? I used to write the procedural manuals for two places I worked.

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#92 Half Fast

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 11:23 PM

I have asked for this thread to be deleted/locked. Merry Christmas and Shalom for the New Year.

 

Why because many people have thoroughly refuted your premise that JK took a swipe at racers? Hmmm.

 

Cheers


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#93 Samiam

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 11:57 PM

The thread can't be locked up yet. Nobody brought up built motors or mentioned food..


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Sam Levitch
 
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#94 The Number of

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 03:26 AM

Errr you just did. :)
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#95 SlowBeas

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 08:50 AM

I've seen it written several times that Tim sought changes to make the motor more consistent. I have to assume this is true, since I don't have the time or the desire to research it myself. Also, I don't have the time needed to devote to being a competitive racer. But I remain somewhat curious about the arguments presented here.

 

Ignoring the issue of whether the motors are faster or slower than before, are they now more consistent overall? If so, Tim has been successful. Likewise, he produced an exhaustive scientific analysis of a more popular break-in method -- even though I'm not convinced it's wise to do in any situation other than track-side, where a fast break-in is needed.

 

Rather than continue attacks on Tim/JK (one of our few remaining providers) for the attempt made to identify a potential problem source, should we discuss calling on the IRRA BOD to determine if older motors need a sunset date? At least, if such a decision is made, everyone would be racing virtually-consistent motors.

 

Bash my idea all you want, but I can't believe this argument continues ad nauseum without reasonable, non-costly, suggestions.


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#96 Butters37

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 08:52 AM

bingo
Jason Engel

#97 Butters37

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 08:54 AM

Although I still have no faith in his report. Sorry not a racer and just because his machine tells him in a controlled environment he is right......the real world where people use his motors say otherwise. Go to a track and test. Not on a bench
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#98 Brinkley47

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 09:19 AM

Looking forward to the R4 warmup in February.
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#99 Butters37

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 09:52 AM

Liar lol
Jason Engel

#100 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 10:19 AM

I know what the problem is, we haven't raced in over a month. In my opinion Tim has tried hard to identify the problem. In reality something has changed in this batch of motors. Let's hope the next batch is better. Let's just race. Merry Christmas everyone.


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