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JK takes another swipe at racers


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#51 Mr. M

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:08 AM

Matt,

What issue would the vendor listen to and why would the small volume and unique corner application here be important enough to take any action? Any application, like medical, would use a servo control loop that measures a controlled rate and position that would not depend on extracting the highest level of performance which is of interest here. In fact, the design of such a device would be to make it independent of motor performance.

I am not sure what root cause analysis you are thinking needs to be performed. The JK report answers why the 2 step observation can occur. To just dismiss this is to read and interpret without objectivity.
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#52 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 01:04 AM

What issue would the vendor listen to and why would the small volume and unique corner application here be important enough to take any action? Any application, like medical, would use a servo control loop that measures a controlled rate and position that would not depend on extracting the highest level of performance which is of interest here. In fact, the design of such a device would be to make it independent of motor performance.

I am not sure what root cause analysis you are thinking needs to be performed. The JK report answers why the 2 step observation can occur. To just dismiss this is to read and interpret without objectivity.

 

You are incorrect, but I am not going to debate the FK motor application within TEE transducers here, but will be glad to do so within PM. As the second largest medical ultrasound transducer repair facility in the world and 19 patents to our name, I know what my application requires.

 

For those that do not use the Simple Green method, it is very easy to dismiss the mfg.'s findings.


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#53 Jaeger Team

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:02 AM

Has anyone tried to use a mixture of Simple Green and water?


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#54 Mr. M

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 06:48 AM

Matt,

On what point am I incorrect?

What issue needs to be addressed?

What root cause analysis needs to be performed?
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#55 Dominator

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 08:46 AM

Simple Green comes in a concentrate so it needs to be diluted with water (50/50 mix).


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#56 tonyp

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:04 AM

And no one can stress enough getting it completely out of the motor and the pores of the brushes especially where the brush is touching the comm.


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#57 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:27 AM

Someone correct me if I am wrong. The reason for using SG is it is quick? Water is a little less quick but without the cleanup problems.

 

Is there something else I am missing or would clean water be a better choice?

 

Counting cleanup time I am not sure water takes any longer.


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#58 Samiam

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:01 AM

Has anyone compared what these motors do on different track voltages? Bryan reports less issues on the left coast. I believe they run sub 13 volts. Some other tracks are running as high as 14.2 volts.

 

I'm waiting for a Hawk/Hawk 6 with a 65t/#30 wind and a JK seal to show up. Then when they need to be rebuilt we can run them in Anglewinders. Better than throwing them away.


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#59 Brinkley47

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:17 AM

Someone correct me if I am wrong. The reason for using SG is it is quick? Water is a little less quick but without the cleanup problems.
 
Is there something else I am missing or would clean water be a better choice?
 
Counting cleanup time I am not sure water takes any longer.

 

Water has very little impact to the new brush material. I ran one under water for an hour at RetroPalooza and it did not even make a difference. That is why people switched to something more aggressive (Simple Green).


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#60 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:38 AM

Damn. I didn't realize the new brushes were that water resistant.

Has anyone tried Purple Power or an acid etching cleaner?

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#61 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:51 AM

JJ, I just bought 10 motors with no balance marks? What about the rest of you cats? Look at your new motors do any have balance marks. Or did I just happen to get 10 balanced motors?

 

That's my only issue, Pat. The R motors and the first batch of or 7R had balance marks. I would like to know why the difference. 


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#62 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:26 PM

Maybe they raise the tolerance level higher. Or they fired the guy at the plant who does it. With that said I personally am not having a big problem with these motors. If I buy 10 motors I usually find two that are good to race with the others I just use for my weekly races. But I am curious on why there are no marks anymore can you guys give a look at your motives and see if me John and Matt are the only ones with this problem.

#63 Fast Freddie

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:35 PM

Did you guys miss the fact that Simple Green is a "cleaner" and as such can be washed away with water, the second step in the break-in process is to flush the motor with water.  If you dunk the motor in a container of water and run the motor for a few seconds the motor virtually cleans itself and that includes the brushes.

 

One more thing that has gone unmentioned.  When you use the Simple Green method there is no heat applied to the comm.  As most racers know the comms. are relatively soft and are not at their best, friction wise, until they are annealed.  The only way to anneal a comm. is with heat.  That's why many motors have better performance after they have been run through track testing sessions. 


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#64 Brinkley47

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:40 PM

Maybe they raise the tolerance level higher. Or they fired the guy at the plant who does it. With that said I personally am not having a big problem with these motors. If I buy 10 motors I usually find two that are good to race with the others I just use for my weekly races. But I am curious on why there are no marks anymore can you guys give a look at your motives and see if me John and Matt are the only ones with this problem.

761b5748bad7601c89181e78f09653cd.jpgmy handout from the fall brawl has balance marks.



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#65 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 01:36 PM

Maybe they raise the tolerance level higher. Or they fired the guy at the plant who does it. With that said I personally am not having a big problem with these motors. If I buy 10 motors I usually find two or three that are good to race with the others I just use for my weekly races. I had about the same ratio with the r motors. It seems with these motors you get a good batch you get a bad batch, presently we are in a bad batch.

#66 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 02:09 PM

I just looked at my Fall Brawl motors. 1 did have marks. All 3 motors from that race were pigs. But I'm talking about recent purchases, within the last 3 weeks. I might go to Port Jeff later and look at all the motors on the wall to see if any have marks. I don't know if it's just me but I remember 7 out of 10 motors use to have marks. Now hardly any. I can tell you this is true because Sean and I used to look for the motors that did not have the marks because we felt they were balanced better because they passed the tolerance percentage. Sometimes we used to go through 10 motors just a fine a couple that did not have the marks, now it seems that hardly any have balance and marks on them.

   This could be something or it could be nothing. All I know is that I have a Lotta fun racing with you fellas. And if it wasn't for this motor I would've been out of slot racing. Because it $50 a pop you can't afford to buy more than two motors at a time and sometimes those two motors were pigs.and then you send it away to get refurbished only to get back the same pig that you sent out. So even though I am not completely satisfied with this motor it is a lot better than we had. Do I think the r motors are better? I don't think so. They might have been faster but they were inconsistent. That's why we went to this new motor to have more consistency but that's what we don't have . So we're back to square one. Let's hope the next batch of motors are good ones.


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#67 Don Weaver

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:43 PM

 My two cents:

 

I began slot racing in 1966 and have participated off and on for over 50 years.  While I enjoy Retro racing and was active in SERRA and currently I am part of the Doghouse Raceway gang in Lexington, SC my real interests lie in building replicas of cars from the early years.

 

This back an forth over the 7R motor is all fine and well but I think an important part is being overlooked and that is the interest and efforts that Tim has undertaken to work through this problem.  I have read this entire thread as well as Tim's 27 page explanation of his approach to finding out was is causing the problem with these motors.  Agree or not with his report he has gone way beyond the efforts of many other manufacturers that I have dealt with in the past.  When complaining once about 0.002 thick bodies to a manufacturer I was simply told it was the best he could do and just buy another one.  Never bought another body from this guy.  Another time when complaining about set screws stripping out frequently I was told I needed to learn how to turn a wrench - trust me, I've been doing this for 50+ years and I know how to do that.   And there have been other examples along the way.

 

While searching for a solution I think we would all be better off and more likely to find a solution with less personal criticism of Tim and more effort to work together.  I think the slot racing community has a real winner in Tim based on what I've seen of his efforts since he took over JK Products.  Give the guy a chance and ​HELP​ him be the supplier/partner you want.

 

I personally have no real stake in this as I mostly use 16D and 26D motors in my builds but I would hate to see Tim lose his enthusiasm and obvious interest in our little toy cars over this issue.  Again, HELP​.....this ain't a us vs. them deal.

 

Don Weaver


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#68 swodem

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:47 PM

Down here, aside from FK motors, we run S16D, C-Can G12 and the occasional Strap ES24

 

I know plenty of guys who spend time building S16D and G12 motors, to the highest degree, Beuf balancing, the whole lot and every motor is different. yet they are taking repeatability to a high level.

 

I see guys on here selling full, professional motor programs, 20 or 30 different motors and each has a tested and noted different characteristic.

 

So please explain why you expect any mass-produced motor to be consistent? I am sure from a MFG point of view they are within 'spec' for their production. 

 

If you have a two-step motor thats faulty out of the packet, and has such a vibration its hard to rev past a certain RPM, then just return it from where you got it from as a faulty motor, for refund or replacement. You have rights as a consumer.

 

Otherwise, then I hate to tell you, the bell curve will always be, whether its electric motors, petrol motors, chassis, boat hulls, tyres, rifle barrels, violins - whatever. When you explore the limits, some items will always be 'better' than others.

 

In the case of the 7R7R7R motors being slower, that's essentially then a different batch and should be treated as such and the rules amended to suit. I think I do recall JK Products attempted to change their production of either the H7 or HR at some time around 12 months ago and got refused by the IRRA, perhaps this change has just quietly slipped by anyway?


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#69 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:03 PM

761b5748bad7601c89181e78f09653cd.jpgmy handout from the fall brawl has balance marks.



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#70 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:05 PM

I just looked at my Fall Brawl motors. 1 did have marks. All 3 motors from that race were pigs. But I'm talking about recent purchases, within the last 3 weeks. I might go to Port Jeff later and look at all the motors on the wall to see if any have marks. I don't know if it's just me but I remember 7 out of 10 motors use to have marks. Now hardly any. I can tell you this is true because Sean and I used to look for the motors that did not have the marks because we felt they were balanced better because they passed the tolerance percentage. Sometimes we used to go through 10 motors just a fine a couple that did not have the marks, now it seems that hardly any have balance and marks on them.

   This could be something or it could be nothing. All I know is that I have a Lotta fun racing with you fellas. And if it wasn't for this motor I would've been out of slot racing. Because it $50 a pop you can't afford to buy more than two motors at a time and sometimes those two motors were pigs.and then you send it away to get refurbished only to get back the same pig that you sent out. So even though I am not completely satisfied with this motor it is a lot better than we had. Do I think the r motors are better? I don't think so. They might have been faster but they were inconsistent. That's why we went to this new motor to have more consistency but that's what we don't have . So we're back to square one. Let's hope the next batch of motors are good ones.

I pretty much agree with Pat. Im just curious about the balancing.. 


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#71 Half Fast

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:32 PM

 

   All I know is that I have a Lotta fun racing with you fellas. And if it wasn't for this motor I would've been out of slot racing. Because it $50 a pop you can't afford to buy more than two motors at a time and sometimes those two motors were pigs.and then you send it away to get refurbished only to get back the same pig that you sent out. So even though I am not completely satisfied with this motor it is a lot better than we had. Do I think the r motors are better? I don't think so. They might have been faster but they were inconsistent. That's why we went to this new motor to have more consistency but that's what we don't have . So we're back to square one. Let's hope the next batch of motors are good ones.

 

 

My feelings exactly!

 

To those with complaints against JK, please tell me what other slot manufacturer would bother to write a 26 page analysis of issues pointed out by racers?

 

Cheers


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#72 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:12 PM

Just came from Port Jeff, tested 5 new motors.Very slow, all 5. Then I asked Mike behind the counter to check the motors he had on the wall for balance marks. There were about 15 of them. Guess what , 0 marks. 15 motors all balance? Plus the 10 that I bought. That's 25 with no marks? What's up with that.


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#73 Dan Ebert

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:53 PM

I decided to give 3 of the 4 motors a try again.  But this time they were loaded into Retro Can Ams.  The OCC GT1 cars are a spec gearing of 10/36.  So with the thinking maybe those motors may come to life with different gearing.   { OCC GT1, 10/36  .790 tires  }  I geared all 3 cars 9/27 pretty standard gearing on a Retro Car.  2 of the cars responded to the different gearing.  Both good enough to run in house races or try on different tracks on different power.   The third motor ran just below what I would call an average RH motor.  After reading the talk on balance marks.  I checked the motors.  The 2 decent motors  were balanced.  The third motor had no visible balance marks.  I am seeing that the some of new motors do not like certain gear ratios.   So not a complete loss.  But I have 16 more to try.  I will be devoting a day soon of Motor testing at the track to see what I have.


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#74 swodem

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:37 PM

Further thinking on this topic, why doesn't one or more of you (I dont use HR motors so I have none) get an old HR thats past its use-by, and a new one from the 'average' batch, clearly mark the arm from the old batch with a sharpie or similar, pull them apart and inspect any differences in

 

1. the Endbell and brush springs,

2. Arm stack dia. and magnet air gap

3. Magnets and gauss readings

4. Unwind the stacks and count the winds, and measure the wire length and thickness

5. Comm timing

6. stack shape, design, naked weight without the wire

7. Report back your findings

 

That would be a good place to start before claiming there are any differences

 

If there are genuine physical differences, then clearly this is a new motor and not an HR!!


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#75 swodem

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:59 PM

....One more thing that has gone unmentioned.  When you use the Simple Green method there is no heat applied to the comm.  As most racers know the comms. are relatively soft and are not at their best, friction wise, until they are annealed.  The only way to anneal a comm. is with heat.  That's why many motors have better performance after they have been run through track testing sessions. 

 

Are you SURE this annealing happens? Do you know this or just surmising?

 

I would not think the comm gets anywhere near the temperature required. Below copied from a technical website;

 

"Annealing copper requires a high temperature. Copper melts at 1357Kelvin and annealing generally occurs at greater than half the melting point in degrees K; even higher temperature causes faster annealing (but not past the melting temperature, of course). Typical temperature to use is 400C or 700F. Annealing causes the structure to create and grow new grains that are free of strain. The new grains remove all dislocations and other defects caused by the deformation, thus leaving the material in its original soft condition, although NOT in its original shape—it will still be the same shape as after deformation, but can be easily bent again. Annealing takes time and temperature..."







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