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JK takes another swipe at racers


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#101 usadar

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 07:40 PM

How many Retro Hawks are produced in a single batch?
This could determine how long we will have the present Hawks in problem, whether or not it is real or just a perception.
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Haruki Kan
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#102 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 09:22 PM

Companies in China that produce the FK130 will do custom orders if MOQ is at least several thousand units.


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#103 Dan Ebert

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 09:43 PM

Just for Fake News sake,  the Penn Ohio Series still allows Puppy Dog motors.  They must be sealed.   And yes Virginia, racers still use them and race them in the series.  As for Henchman, Hitman and  *&^%$man  it still seems an us verses  them mentality with some racers concerning motors and organizations.  Most of the complaining and discussion over JK RH motors always seems to start in the same place.  We all know where that is.  So take it with a grain of salt.  For the time being I will set a day aside soon and go through all 20 of the RH motors I recently purchased and report back if this thread isn't locked.   But on the upside,  I have found that the new motors do not like 10/36 gearing that the OCC rules require for GT1.  So all the new motors will see Retro Duty for the time being.  


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#104 chaparrAL

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 12:07 AM

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#105 JK Products

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 12:07 PM

We can all sit here, theorize, make claims and pretend to be keyboard experts all we want.
 
It all comes down to this...
 
Does JK feel there is an issue with the current Hawk Retro motors, or are his customers just incompetent?
 
Tim publicly stated he changed the specs on the motor to improve consistency. Sometimes experiments don't work out, we get that.
 
Well respected people in the industry including some close to JK and IRRA BOD members have mentioned some things were changed without  him knowing. Hey, it's China, stuff happens and we get that too.
 
So does JK plan to makes changes to improve the next batch or not? That's all we want to know as racers, track owners and series directors. Once informed we can make our decisions, until then we'll all just sit here and discuss this until we're blue in the face.
 
It's Tim's move, and perosnally I hope he makes some changes so we can continue running these motors we all have.

 
OK, Ralph, your close association with Hershman makes me very reluctant to reply but I will. I have responded exactly and specifically to every comment in your post. Please show me the same courtesy in your reply. I have numbered the specific questions so you know the minimum to reply to.
 

We can all sit here, theorize, make claims and pretend to be keyboard experts all we want.


1. Aren’t you doing exactly this?
 

Does JK feel there is an issue with the current Hawk Retro motors


What issue? If you can’t specifically state “the problem,” how can I possible solve “the problem”? Please make your comments based upon your personal and direct experience, not what you have heard from other people.
 
     2. Exactly what problem(s) do you think need to be addressed?
     3. What exactly are you observing?
     4. When did these observations start?
     5. How frequent and important of a problem is this?
 
     The more specific and additional information you can provide the better.
 
I am trying to gather exactly this type of information, so I can identify if there are issues, exactly what they are, and how big the issues are. If I can get a consensus of a problem, I can then try to fix it. Let’s look at the most recent example.
 
A small minority has claimed a 2-step problem (one version speed of changing regularly and consistently on the track, another slow in the beginning of a heat and then speeding up) although the vast majority never saw this. I quite thoroughly addressed the first issue and showed it being caused by comm contamination, most easily but not exclusively from improper use of Simple Green. This cost me thousands of dollars in time and equipment. Instead of getting “thank you for your work,” I was still attacked by some as “taking a swipe at racers” in this very thread. This is sad.
 
I am still working on the second 2-step issue (slow to start a heat then speeding up). I have yet to receive one motor showing this issue. Please contact me if you have any motors showing this phenomenon.

6. Do you have any 2-speed motors?
7. If yes, why haven’t you contacted me?
8. If no, why haven’t you commented you haven’t seen the issue?
 
It seems a few racers would rather spend hours complaining online rather than offering valuable, helpful information. This is a shame as it reflects badly on not just those people, but the rest of the sport/hobby. To this date, I have only received two (2) motors showing the first part of the 2-speed problem. I have had and always will have the following policy:
 
If you feel you have defective JK Products, please contact me directly at jkp@jkproducts.com. We will then discuss the issue and the more specific information you have, the better we can evaluate the issue. We will then work with you to try to resolve it. If we need to receive any parts, we will pay any costs. If the parts are found to be defective, they will be replaced free of charge.
 

... or are his customers just incompetent?


I resent the insinuation that you think my customers are incompetent. Most are quite competent. While a few might have incomplete information, or be confused about one particular issue or another, the vast majority are quite reasonable. The worst have a personal and private agenda against JK and the IRRA® and often use these online forums as a campaign of lies and misinformation to further their own personal agendas.
 

Tim publicly stated he changed the specs on the motor to improve consistency.


I changed no motor performance specifications, only manufacturing tolerances to improve consistency.
 

Sometimes experiments don't work out, we get that.


While some experiments might not work out, this one did. I have significant information that it did.

9. You are implying that it did not; why?
10. Do you have any information that shows it did not?
 

Well-respected people in the industry including some close to JK and IRRA® BoD members have mentioned some things were changed without him knowing.


11. Support that statement with specific examples. I am aware of no such statements.
 
If you want to know what was done and what was not done, please ask me directly. Do not listen to what I am “supposed” to have said from any third parties.
 

Hey, it's China, stuff happens and we get that too.


“Stuff” happens everywhere, including the US. More “stuff” does happen in China. I try my best to control as much as I am able to and have made repeated trips to China to aid my manufacturers and increase the quality of our products. These trips are neither pleasant nor inexpensive.
 

So does JK plan to makes changes to improve the next batch or not?


12. What changes need to be made? Please be specific as outlined in questions 2-5.
 

That’s all we want to know as racers, track owners and series directors.


I do not accept you as speaking for all racers, track owners, or series directors.

13. Why do you think you can speak for all them?

We are committed to making the best products we can. Please help us in doing so by relating any concerns you might have.
 

Once informed we can make our decisions, until then we'll all just sit here and discuss this until we're blue in the face.


14. Again, discuss specifically, exactly, what?
 

It's Tim's move, and personally I hope he makes some changes so we can continue running these motors we all have.


15. Yet again, change exactly what to address exactly what problem or problems?


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#106 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 01:03 PM

Tim,

 

I disagree with you on one point. I do not think the problem people have is truly with JK. The problem is between IRRA® and RETRO. The fact that a JK motor is the chosen motor of IRRA® makes JK the easy and logical target.

 

I think IRRA® made a mistake soon after the 7R motors came out by not setting a sunset date for the old motors. The normal life of the older motors will take care of that problem at some point in time.

 

Thank you for your efforts, Tim.


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#107 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 01:59 PM

Hundreds of post on Slotblog, and thousands on Facebook complaining about the quality of JK products, poor-running motors, and you choose to only reply to me, despite the fact that I have continuously posted I support JK Products, I suppose I'm honored? If your looking for courtesy on an online forum, you may find yourself disappointed at times, but since you've singled me out for some reason I'll give you my thoughts. Although it's obvious you have an axe to grind with me based on our previous communications, and the fact that once again you try to discredit me by connecting me to Hershman in your first sentence, I'm not sure this will be very productive.
 
It's quite obvious after reading this you believe no problem exists, and no changes will be made. Finally you have answered the question we all wanted to know. Now myself and others can make our plans and changes accordingly, if needed.
 

OK, Ralph, your close association with Hershman makes me very reluctant to reply but I will. I have responded exactly and specifically to every comment in your post. Please show me the same courtesy in your reply. I have numbered the specific questions so you know the minimum to reply to.

1. Aren’t you doing exactly this?

 
Yes, I am. Is that a crime? Isn't that was most people do on here?
 

What issue? If you can’t specifically state “the problem,” how can I possible solve “the problem”? Please make your comments based upon your personal and direct experience, not what you have heard from other people.
 
2. Exactly what problem(s) do you think need to be addressed?

 
Well IMO...
 
1) Too hard of brushes. 
2) Performance difference in motors from batch to batch, specifically the batches that have been released since you purchased JK Products.
3) The "shifting" issue.
4) Loose terminal connections.
5) Not enough motor insulation.
   

3. What exactly are you observing?

 
1) Motor brushes are so hard they require chemicals such as Simple Green to break them in.
2) My current 7R motors are 2 to 5 tenths slower, if they even come up to speed at all. Most of them don't even come up to speed unless a big pinion is used (as Dan Ebert eluded to previously), my older motors don't have that issue.
3) Motors seem to be "shifting."
4) Terminals are loose and require gluing them in place in some motors.
5) Motors are leaking electricity and the terminals are loose because the insulation material changed.
 

4. When did these observations start?

 
When the last batch of 7R motors came out.
 

5. How frequent and important of a problem is this?

 
Based on the hundreds of people complaining, the number of complaints you delete of your Facebook page, I'd say its pretty frequent, but in the end you would have to determine that. For me it's a big enough issue that I won't be purchasing more until something changes.
 

The more specific and additional information you can provide the better.
 
I am trying to gather exactly this type of information, so I can identify if there are issues, exactly what they are, and how big the issues are. If I can get a consensus of a problem, I can then try to fix it. Let’s look at the most recent example.
 
A small minority has claimed a 2-step problem (one version speed of changing regularly and consistently on the track, another slow in the beginning of a heat and then speeding up) although the vast majority never saw this. I quite thoroughly addressed the first issue and showed it being caused by comm contamination, most easily but not exclusively from improper use of Simple Green. This cost me thousands of dollars in time and equipment. Instead of getting “thank you for your work,” I was still attacked by some as “taking a swipe at racers” in this very thread. This is sad.
 
I am still working on the second 2-step issue (slow to start a heat then speeding up). I have yet to receive one motor showing this issue. Please contact me if you have any motors showing this phenomenon.

6. Do you have any 2-speed motors?


Yes.
 

7. If yes, why haven’t you contacted me?


Three fold, last time I offered to help you with some chassis design and testing you never followed through with your word.  Also, last time we spoke you were arrogant, violent, continuously insulted me and mentioned you wanted to bash my head in with a baseball bat. Quite frankly, it's not my job to do so either, if you want to make the money on the products, it's your job to put in the work.
 

8. If no, why haven’t you commented you haven’t seen the issue?
 
It seems a few racers would rather spend hours complaining online rather than offering valuable, helpful information. This is a shame as it reflects badly on not just those people, but the rest of the sport/hobby. To this date, I have only received two (2) motors showing the first part of the 2-speed problem. I have had and always will have the following policy:
 
If you feel you have defective JK Products, please contact me directly at jkp@jkproducts.com. We will then discuss the issue and the more specific information you have, the better we can evaluate the issue. We will then work with you to try to resolve it. If we need to receive any parts, we will pay any costs. If the parts are found to be defective, they will be replaced free of charge.

 
Most are aware of your policy. But I think it's probably one or all of the following reasons: most either aren't that worried about it, have no interest going out of their way to help you, feel your not going to perform any other test that we can't do on our own, or we know you won't be at raceway to actually track test them.
 

I resent the insinuation that you think my customers are incompetent. Most are quite competent. While a few might have incomplete information, or be confused about one particular issue or another, the vast majority are quite reasonable. The worst have a personal and private agenda against JK and the IRRA® and often use these online forums as a campaign of lies and misinformation to further their own personal agendas.

 
Again, what is the agenda you and all your JK "henchmen" keep referring to? I am still waiting on that answer.
 

I changed no motor performance specifications, only manufacturing tolerances to improve consistency.

 
It appears to those of us who support JK, and actually purchase and use your products that changing manufacturing tolerances can and does effect motor overall performance. I don't recall thousands of posts like these before you changed the manufacturing tolerances.
 

While some experiments might not work out, this one did. I have significant information that it did.

9. You are implying that it did not; why?

 
Wow, are you delusional? LOL
 

10. Do you have any information that shows it did not?


What information can you provide that shows it did work?
 

11. Support that statement with specific examples. I am aware of no such statements.

 
If you can read this thread, and all the Facebook posts and determine no such statements were made, I can't help you.
 

If you want to know what was done and what was not done, please ask me directly. Do not listen to what I am “supposed” to have said from any third parties.

 
What was done, and what was not done then?
 

“Stuff” happens everywhere, including the US. More “stuff” does happen in China. I try my best to control as much as I am able to and have made repeated trips to China to aid my manufacturers and increase the quality of our products. These trips are neither pleasant nor inexpensive.

 
As I previously stated many times I understand that and I appreciate your efforts.
 

12. What changes need to be made? Please be specific as outlined in questions 2-5.

 
Already gave my opinion on that above.
 

I do not accept you as speaking for all racers, track owners, or series directors.

13. Why do you think you can speak for all them?

 
I never stated I speaking for all people. I said "we" referring to myself and those I spoke to who feel the same way.


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#108 Half Fast

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 02:30 PM

Ralph-
 
Could you explain what "leaking electricity" means, I have never heard of that.
 
Cheers

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#109 Brinkley47

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 02:42 PM

He really thinks he solved the issue because of Simple Green. Wow. I am truly amazed.


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#110 swodem

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:03 PM

Although I still have no faith in his report. Sorry not a racer and just because his machine tells him in a controlled environment he is right... the real world where people use his motors say otherwise. Go to a track and test. Not on a bench


Didn't the OP on a now-locked thread show his evidence of the motor issue on a power supply on a bench!?



#111 jimht

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:31 PM

Oh, good grief.

Sorry, I can't resist...

 

Ralph responded:

Well IMO...

 

1) Too hard of brushes.  What hardness scale do you use? Can I buy one? Does it measure hardness or softness and how?

2) Performance difference in motors from batch to bath, specifically the batches that have been released since you purchased JK Products. Please define "batch.".So, do you personally have any info as to exactly how many "batches" there have been? Are you saying there are batches within the batches?

3) The "shifting" issue. Send one to JK.

4) Loose terminal connections. Send one to JK.

5) Not enough motor insulation. Say what? Send one to JK.
   

 3. What exactly are you observing?

 

1) Motor brushes are so hard they require chemicals, such as Simple Green to break them in. And it was exactly that issue that Tim addressed in his test report, Simple Green works but with provisos.

2) My current 7R motors are 2 to 5 tenths slower, if then even come up to speed at all. Most of them don't even come up to speed unless a big pinion is used (as Dan Ebert eluded to previously), my older motors dont have that issue. This is kind of contradictory, but the problem of variations between batches is certainly important. What do you suggest be done?

3) Motors seem to be "shifting" Send one to JK.

4) Terminals are loose and require be have to glue them in place in some motors. Send one to JK.

5) Motors are leaking electricity and the terminals are loose because the insulation material changed. Send one to JK or maybe talk to  Nikola Tesla.

 

So, Ralph, how many defective motors have you sent to JK?


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#112 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:57 PM

It doesn't take a hardness scale, just common sense and experience. Tim told me there has been two batches of "7R" motors. As to all your "send on to JK" comments, I already posted why myself and many others haven't done so.
 
I just got off an hour and a half phone call with Tim. We agreed on a few things, and we disagreed on a few. We had our discussion and we both know how each other feels. Tim mentioned he was working on more testing that doesn't revolve around Simple Green. I'm sure he will report his findings.


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#113 JK Products

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:59 PM

OK, just had a long and I felt mostly beneficial (from my point of view) discussion with Ralph. We shared his detailed observations and got as much specific information as possible. He does not have any motors he can send at this time and that is unfortunate but he said he would try to do so in the future. The personal things in #7 I will refute but leave the rest alone for now. 

 

Some people's assumption that we do not or will not do track testing are 100% wrong. Of course we will. Track testing was absolutely not needed in this case as the bench data is so profound that doing so would have been pointless and wasteful. When you see the videos (shortly) I am sure you will agree.


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#114 swodem

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 05:47 PM

Hey has anyone else noticed??

 

This is the only thread that Mike Swiss hasn't posted a single comment!!!


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#115 MSwiss

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:00 PM

I've also noticed.

 

I have too much going on the raceway to get involved in this.

 

I have 10 parties already booked for January and four for February.

 

My time is better spent working on my rental fleet and tending to C/R products, which are now at distributors.


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#116 swodem

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:36 PM

I’m not convinced you are, Mike.

You’d never let someone “... perpetuate something negative about a slot car company, that has clearly been debunked...”

Or as GCT, not to lock it even when the OP requested the thread be locked.

Who are you - and what have you done with Mike!?

#117 jimht

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:42 PM

 As to all your "send on to JK" comments, I already posted why myself and many others haven't done so.

 
Two issues to consider:

There are defects in some motors and the newest motors are slower.
 
The defects problem can only be addressed if defective motors are returned for evaluation.
 
You posted this, is this what you were referring to?
 

I always wondered what test would actually be performed if we sent in the motor to have it analyzed, now we know they will be looked at with a flashlight and put on a power supply. I'll save the time and postage, I can do that myself. Im sure most racers feel the same way and that's why more motors weren't sent in.

 
If so, you assumed that this was the only evaluation that would be performed. Why?
 
Seems to me that it worked just fine for the issue that it addressed and if Tim receives other motors with different issues, I'm sure he will use appropriate methods of evaluating the problems and as you say, "report his findings."
 
If you have any influence amongst the umpteen racers you say are complaining, please have them return some defective motors to JK and ask them to quit whining on the Internet. 
 
The slower motors issue seems to have some validity from posted race results.

Returning all the motors is not an option.
 
As others have said there needs to be a ruling by the IRRA® and others addressing the issue.
 
The fact that this thread has an obnoxious title which indicates an obvious bias against JK, and it's still here, indicates the usefulness of the discussion.
 
Note also that I see no value in your making grandiose claims about how much "support" you have from a group of racers that have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with the motor problems.
 
You want respect in the business, start by keeping the personal attacks against other manufacturers private where they belong.
You're not going to sell more of your stuff by playing Facebook here.


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#118 Cheater

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:00 PM

Or as GCT, not to lock it even when the OP requested the thread be locked.


FWIW that request was made to me and the decision to let the thread stay open was mine alone.
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#119 swodem

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:22 PM

And I applaud you and the Blog for letting it continue

 

I think we can all see the subtleties of what's going on.


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#120 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:53 PM

Two issues to consider:

There are defects in some motors and the newest motors are slower.
 
The defects problem can only be addressed if defective motors are returned for evaluation.
 
You posted this, is this what you were referring to?
 
If so, you assumed that this was the only evaluation that would be performed. Why?
 
Seems to me that it worked just fine for the issue that it addressed and if Tim receives other motors with different issues, I'm sure he will use appropriate methods of evaluating the problems and as you say, "report his findings."
 
If you have any influence amongst the umpteen racers you say are complaining, please have them return some defective motors to JK and ask them to quit whining on the Internet. 
 
The slower motors issue seems to have some validity from posted race results.

Returning all the motors is not an option.
 
As others have said there needs to be a ruling by the IRRA® and others addressing the issue.
 
The fact that this thread has an obnoxious title which indicates an obvious bias against JK, and it's still here, indicates the usefulness of the discussion.
 
Note also that I see no value in your making grandiose claims about how much "support" you have from a group of racers that have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with the motor problems.
 
You want respect in the business, start by keeping the personal attacks against other manufacturers private where they belong.
You're not going to sell more of your stuff by playing Facebook here.

 
I assumed they wouldn't be track tested, and as of now admittedly by Tim, they haven't been. So was I wrong in my assumption? No.
 
Hopefully that will change in the future, and based of our conversation earlier it will, as others and myself have been in contact with him and have agreed to keep a detailed information log and send motors in the future.
 
What possible benefit, personal or financial, is there for me to show my concern for ONE batch of motors? Have you ever seen me complain about any other JK Products? Once again I'll ask, for at least the third time in this thread, what is this supposed axe to grind that I have to grind with Tim or JK Products? Oh that's right there is none, that's why nobody has produced an answer yet.
 
There is no personal attack here by me. Tim and I have talked many times, including today and we both have respect for each other despite the fact that we don't always agree on things.
 
You dont think I feel the heat from racer's across the country wanting changes to the FNRS? I see and hear it daily. I'm sticking up for him, and Im not canning his products and replacing them with Pro Slot or anyone else's.
 
I will also continue to buy JK Products in the future, albeit maybe not Hawk Retros if this problem continues.
 
For the last time, yes I think there is an issue with the latest  batch of motors, which I believe is caused my one or multiple problems which I've listed. That's my opinion, which I'm entitled to as a member of this blog, a person who's spent thousands of dollars with JK, including hundreds of Hawk Retro motors, which I do have a bit of experience going back to the original batch.
 
If you would like to discuss this further feel free to PM me, call me or e-mail me anytime, I have no issue having a respectful conversation with you or anyone else, as I have have done with Tim and many others here.


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#121 Mike Patterson

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 10:54 PM

All I can say is: everybody wanted cheap Chinese motors. JK supplied said product. Everybody now says cheap Chinese motors are turds. What did you expect? "Cheap" and "Chinese" should have been your first clue.


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#122 havlicek

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:32 AM

I look at all this from a disinterested POV and can't help but think that this is pretty much a "the nature of the beast" issue more than anything.

For this type of "non-tweakable" motor to truly be perfectly consistent (both within a batch, and from batch-to-batch), there would have to be some major QC controls based on a standard at the factory, which would no doubt cause significant price increases. Think about it, an inspector sees an issue, stops production (either before, during or... after a run), and anything from retooling to tossing an entire batch of motors is necessary. Just the potential cost of any of that would have to have been built-in to the quoted cost to the seller/distributor. If the issue is caused by a part supplied by a third party manufacturer (like brushes), then that would cause even more issues time and costwise.

If trying to prevent inconsistencies means a higher spec as to parts/assembly, well that right there is going to cause a major cost increase.

Since all of these motors are manufactured "off shore" and they are really only specified by (to a price point) and then purchased in quantity to be branded and sold here, there are naturally going to be cases where what arrives here will vary from "the ideal." If and when that happens, there aren't many options left... because that's all "after the fact." Buying thousands of these motors to cater to a tiny market represents a large risk. That "risk", along with the tiny profit potential even when all goes perfectly, is why so few actually enter the market.
__________________

So say one of the remaining motor suppliers does all of the above and the usually stingy slot community says with one unified voice ( :D ), "boy we really like this and are fine paying more money." Then whoever else supplies motors will be forced to do the same thing, and the whole "let's keep the costs stupid-low" thing goes right out the window. Yep, spending beaucoup bucks on controllers and tires... working for hours and hours on the latest/greatest scatchbuilt chassis and whatnot are all fine, but I want a great $14 motor to stick in it (even if I buy them by the dozen!?).

If I were supplying these motors, I might look at all this and decide to go work for Mickey D's. At least there you get free lunch!  


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#123 SlowBeas

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 09:07 AM

Wasn't "quality" also a consideration back when Pro Slot chose to put a balanced American armature into the old PDs, and then BBs, driving up the cost from a $15 to about $40? As I recall, some people still complained after all that effort.

 

As I've heard for many years: Let no good deed go unpunished.

 

Happy New Year, racers.


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#124 Dan Ebert

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 10:05 AM

I am growing so tired of certain individuals in this hobby/sport. When people that haven't raced in years use other social media outlets to call for the boycott of racing series that use the JK motor. Another racer that doesn't race Retro and travels on occasion to race. He leads the rumormongering over JK motors on Facebook. Much of the ado again is the same people stirring up the same ****. 

Watch the pattern, either before a major IRRA® race or every three to six months. It is the same group causing the problems. Please just go away, or stay in your own group and do what you do. Nobody here cares, unless you are stepping on our toes. 

I will personally speak to the one individual. The next time he enters our raceway, I will ask him exactly what his problems are with the Penn Ohio-Series. 

The same people that cry about attendance at events and the state of the hobby are the same ones driving people away. So damn tired of it.


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GallerymanDan

#125 Brinkley47

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 10:38 AM

I personally traveled a ton last year racing Retro Hawks. I ran every IRRA® premier event in 2017. I was a huge advocate of the Retro Hawk when the Puppy Dog was still around.

The facts are the new 7R is slower, and more difficult to get broken-in. I want the same quality motor we had with previous versions.

If this is too much to ask, then why change them in the first place?


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Will Brinkley
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#126 Cheater

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 11:14 AM

I want the same quality motor we had with previous versions.

If this is too much to ask, then why change them in the first place?


Will, this has been answered multiple times and you either don't get or don't want to hear it.

JK is ordering a few thousand motors at a time from a Chinese manufacturer who is making millions of the same form-factor motor for their other customers per week, maybe even per day (Mabuchi, not the ony Chinese motor maker, says they produce 1.4 billion small DC motors a year, which is over 3.5 million motors a day!).

JK can specify a some things to customize that motor, but he can't specify, for example, the exact composition of the brushes they use, a custom-designed endbell, matched magnets, etc. The motor manufacturer is going to utilize the same pieces they have on hand for their other customers who are ordering this motor (in vastly larger quantities, I remind you again).

 

And those components will ocassionally run out and have to be re-ordered from the manufacturer's supplier and sometimes what comes in isn't exactly the same as before; sometimes the original component supplier has gone belly-up and the motor maker has to resource the part(s). At the volumes JK is ordering, it's do what you can and take what you can get and that's the case with anyone else who wants to supply motors for this hobby niche.

At the volume of motors JK is ordering, and at the price racers want to pay, not every aspect of the Retro Hawk motor can be spec'd or even controlled to give the kind of consistency everyone would like to have and that you are so insistently demanding. JK can't do it, Warren Buffet can't do it, Bill Gates can't do it.

Like my wise old grandmother used to say, "Just because you want it doesn't mean you can get it."

I wanted some Bacardi 151 rum for my egg nog a few weeks ago and I found to my chagrin that Bacardi doesn't make it any more!!! I can throw a big tantrum at the liquor store or even at Bacardi HQ in FL and it's not going to get me any 151 for my egg nog.

And to tell you the truth, a big glass of 151-spiked egg nog is just what I'd like right now, after having to listen again to the never-ending motor bitching that has been going on for, what, eight years now?


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#127 Brinkley47

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 11:32 AM

If JK can't control the brush material, then maybe we need a motor that you can change the brushes.


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#128 Cheater

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 11:35 AM

I suugest you ask Tonyp about the inconsistency of small DC motor brushes. That would be trading one problem for another IMO and would solve nothing. YMMV.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#129 Brinkley47

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 11:36 AM

A few years ago, I would agree with you. At this point, I disagree until a new version of the Hawk is released.
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#130 Butters37

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 12:32 PM

Then maybe its time to only allow motors that racers can purchase at the local shops? Maybe the older motors need to go and only allow what everyone can buy. But hey whatever works
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#131 kvanpelt

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 12:41 PM

Like my wise old grandmother used to say, "Just because you want it doesn't mean you can get it."

 
Greg, that was a wise old generation. My father attended the school of hard knocks, his lesson handed down to me was...
 
"Wish in one hand and $hit in the other, let me know what you get!" :good:


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#132 willy wonka

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

Then maybe its time to only allow motors that racers can purchase at the local shops? Maybe the older motors need to go and only allow what everyone can buy. But hey whatever works


Easy to say when you make your money on your used and unused motors then state you're only racing at Tri-State anyhow from now on. So maybe be more concerned with what your local track is doing other than worry about what is being done elsewhere.


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#133 kvanpelt

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 12:44 PM

Oh, yes, I forgot.

 

Just another blah, blah, blah bash the IRRA® thread but disguise it through a bash JK Products.  :dash2:


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Kevin VanPelt
 
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#134 willy wonka

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 12:47 PM

Will, this has been answered multiple times and you either don't get or don't want to hear it.

JK is ordering a few thousand motors at a time from a Chinese manufacturer who is making millions of the same form-factor motor for their other customers per week, maybe even per day (Mabuchi, not the ony Chinese motor maker, says they produce 1.4 billion small DC motors a year, which is over 3.5 million motors a day!).

JK can specify a some things to customize that motor, but he can't specify, for example, the exact composition of the brushes they use, a custom-designed endbell, matched magnets, etc. The motor manufacturer is going to utilize the same pieces they have on hand for their other customers who are ordering this motor (in vastly larger quantities, I remind you again).
 
And those components will ocassionally run out and have to be re-ordered from the manufacturer's supplier and sometimes what comes in isn't exactly the same as before; sometimes the original component supplier has gone belly-up and the motor maker has to resource the part(s). At the volumes JK is ordering, it's do what you can and take what you can get and that's the case with anyone else who wants to supply motors for this hobby niche.

At the volume of motors JK is ordering, and at the price racers want to pay, not every aspect of the Retro Hawk motor can be spec'd or even controlled to give the kind of consistency everyone would like to have and that you are so insistently demanding. JK can't do it, Warren Buffet can't do it, Bill Gates can't do it.

Like my wise old grandmother used to say, "Just because you want it doesn't mean you can get it."

I wanted some Bacardi 151 rum for my egg nog a few weeks ago and I found to my chagrin that Bacardi doesn't make it any more!!! I can throw a big tantrum at the liquor store or even at Bacardi HQ in FL and it's not going to get me any 151 for my egg nog.

And to tell you the truth, a big glass of 151-spiked egg nog is just what I'd like right now, after having to listen again to the never-ending motor bitching that has been going on for, what, eight years now?

 

You say all this yet Tim has said and shown videos of the manufacturing process changing with some other changes I may be forgetting about. But then you say well Tim just gets what he gets? Something isn't adding up here. And I'm not buying that he gets what he gets claim when he's stated he has made changes to their process. He can make all these other changes but somehow it's now you get what you get. If Tim's order is so small then why is it the manufacturer is willing to change the specs to what Tim wants?


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William Custer
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#135 Cheater

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:04 PM

Parts and processes are two different things, Will. Easy to change a procedure for a small run.

And I know Tim has to pay more to get the 'special' procedures.

Gregory Wells

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#136 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:09 PM

Novel option:

 

If anyone qualifies significantly (percentage TBD) faster, that motor is automatically protested and subject to inspection. If it wins a race by more than 10% over fourth place, it is confiscated for teardown inspection. If the motor fails during the race, inspection is mandatory.

 

Hand-out races motor limit of two per person.


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#137 Fast Freddie

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:10 PM

So, ah, motor performance does make a difference??? 

 

I'm confused.  I was informed by some of the brightest minds in retro slot car racing that no matter what the same racers would always win. I believe the phrase was "the cream will always rise to the top." Well, prove it. Race with what you perceive to be a substandard motor and win. Prove that it's not the motor but your exceptional driving skills and car set-up that wins you all those races. 

 

Finally put all the nay sayers and skeptics to bed. I'd like to see that.


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#138 tonyp

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:14 PM

All these FK style motors are made with OEM parts and then assembled by your “factory” who can do things like change winds, balance to a better spec, etc. None of the motors is completely made in-house. The brushes and brush arms are made for the millions of motors produced outside of slot cars. Tim really has no control over them.

 

If you ever dealt with the Chinese you prepay and hope you get what you ordered.


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#139 Butters37

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:28 PM

Ha-ha. Thanks, Willy. Exactly my point when it comes to Retro racing right now. The haves and the have-nots. All are complaining the new motors are slower but those with the old motors don't want to see the rules changed. Sounds like a hypocrite to me.

And what I do is my business with my cars my motors and my stuff. It's funny how you are saying the most and yet don't want to run on the same playing field as others. Great ambassador there, champ


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#140 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:32 PM

Over my lifetime I have been involved in a number of competitive activities. In college it was football and fencing. For many years I was devoted to sailing dinghy racing and, at times and today, slot cars. 

 

Of all of these, slot car racing stands out as having the most energy devoted to argument, debate, and hand wringing over rules and equipment. Years ago, I read the OWH routinely - it was the only game in town. I gave it up because 90% of the posts were debate over which variant of whose chassis was "legal," whether a body was 0.001" thicker or thinner, etc., etc. I see looking by chance at some rules that not only is chassis material controlled but where and how some parts can be soldered and even, in one case that I came upon what gear ratio could be used!
 
This current debate appears to reflect the fact that, for cost reasons, mass production is being levered and then there is surprise that tolerances lead to variation. Remember, a $4.95 1962 Pittman motor would cost $40.00 today.
 
I have a suggestion for those obsessed with parity: have all the competitors put their cars on a table. Randomly select eight. Put them on the track and run an IROC style race (and, if a car breaks down, simply replace it with another random pick - perfectly fair? No, but that's racing).
 
EM


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Alan Schwartz

#141 gc4895

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:52 PM

May God bless all slot car racers and participants in the coming new year. May God bless our component manufacturers, distributors and re-sellers that provide the toys we love to play with - may they continue to have the patience to put up with the incessant whining sounds that come from those playing with these toy cars. And may God bless and keep those hearty individuals that find the way to pay for the square footage that the big footprint tracks require that we come together on and measure our joy in hundreths of a second. And may we all take a breath and acknowledge these sealed motor blues will both pass yet will always be a part of the experience.

 

2018 will be one more year where, as racers, we never had it so good and were offered so much choice at a price that so many can afford. Rejoice!


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Mark Bauer

#142 havlicek

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 03:29 PM

Hey, there's a thought...send me those "dog" motors.  I'll figure out something to do with them ;) , and it HAS to be better than just chucking them.


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John Havlicek

#143 Steve Deiters

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 03:35 PM

Great idea.  I've always thought there has to be an end bell that would fit that can.  If you have a smoked arm just strip it, install a quality com, and then let your imagination take over with some rewinding wire.  Sounds like a plan to me!


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#144 Samiam

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 03:58 PM

Steve,
 
He's already on the case...

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory - part II
 
John,

We need these motors to all be within 2%, perform flawlessly and cost no more than $55. Oh, and we need 200 of them right away.
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#145 Cheater

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:19 PM

200? Heck, that few will be snatched up by only a racer or two...


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#146 willy wonka

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:22 PM

Ha-ha. Thanks, Willy. Exactly my point when it comes to Retro racing right now. The haves and the have-nots. All are complaining the new motors are slower but those with the old motors don't want to see the rules changed. Sounds like a hypocrite to me.

And what I do is my business with my cars my motors and my stuff. It's funny how you are saying the most and yet don't want to run on the same playing field as others. Great ambassador there, champ


Gotcha, chump! See ya at a track maybe? Will you quit the race probably! Ha-ha :)
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#147 havlicek

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:23 PM

Great idea. I've always thought there has to be an end bell that would fit that can. If you have a smoked arm just strip it, install a quality comm, and then let your imagination take over with some rewinding wire.  Sounds like a plan to me!

 

Yeah, but you also have to mill the radiused sides of the endbell (Hawk), shorten the can (it would be stoopid-long with a regular endbell on there), and open up the back end, leaving just a "bearing strap." There's just a wee bit more than merely slapping an endbell on there. 

 

:)


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John Havlicek

#148 willy wonka

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:25 PM

Ha-ha. Thanks, Willy. Exactly my point when it comes to Retro racing right now. The haves and the have-nots. All are complaining the new motors are slower but those with the old motors don't want to see the rules changed. Sounds like a hypocrite to me.

And what I do is my business with my cars my motors and my stuff. It's funny how you are saying the most and yet don't want to run on the same playing field as others. Great ambassador there, champ


You for sure have had a lot more to say on this subject then me because you're right, I don't want the rules to change. I've already had to lose on 60 Puppy Dogs at 50 dollars each. Don't want to go through that again because of JK's choices.


William Custer
To finish First you must first Finish

#149 swodem

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:49 PM

... I've already had to lose on 60 Puppy Dogs at 50 dollars each...


Why do you need 60 rebuildable motors? Kinda disproves the theory that a quality arm provides more consistent results, dunnit!?
 


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#150 Butters37

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:50 PM

Thats racing though. As we all know the fast guys will still be fast whatever the motor. But when the new batch is slower than the stuff a guy cant buy anymore....how long do you think that will sustain itself? Faster or slower it really doesnt matter. The motors are what they are. The only reason this is a topic is because races allow the older motors. If only new motors were used the only thing people may be off is the older track records. But that wouldnt matter.

Its when you say the motors are slow and fix them.....if we compare to say the rockets people always save for larger races. Yes they are way slower. But if you take away the rockets from the past the drivers will still shine. It will be exactly the same but people will have a better perception of racing when they feel competitive. Simply its selfishness on part of a few that are leading the way here.

Ill be at tristate end of January. I have a large rc race next week and vacation in March right around the r4. I may or may not do the warmup for fun. Id rather be a chump anyday than a champ whos lost all perspective on a hobby he allegedly loves. If things like this continue be it motors tires bodies whatever slots wont have much longer. The same reason the puppy dog should never have been banned. And the same reason I voiced so loud for o/s bodies. When you narrow what racers can choose it can come around and bite you hard. A lot of people are upset about the motors. How many of them would gladly try a puppy dog at this point? I think more than a few would like the option. And just for clarity an old retro hawk can not be included in the argument of having options because they are no longer made. Gone as far as retail sales go. That was jks Choice....honestly its fine if we all have the ability to buy as many as we want instead of having to hoard or raffle new motors from the older batches that are no longer made.
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