319 replies to this topic

[gotboostedvr6]

Annealed copper is not what we are after. We want hard comms.

Copper doesn't harden by heating and cooling the way steel does. It has the exact opposite effect. The only way I know of is to work harden like hammering or coining.

"Note there are six tempers designated by ASTM B370 as: 060 (soft), H00 (cold rolled), H01 (cold rolled, high yield), H02 (half hard), H03 (three quarter hard), and H04 (hard)."

I've no idea which is best for our application but I'd start with the hardest material and go from there.

[Samiam]

   Let's keep in mind that Tim has no control over the parts that go into these motors. He can only specify which ones and how they are assembled. He gets the same cans, bushings, endbells, magnets, armature blanks, commutators and wire that the millions of industrial purpose motors are made from. 
   He tightened up manufacturing tolerances to make them more consistent. Number of winds, balance, degrees of advance. He did this because racers were complaining about inconsistencies in racing performance. Could he specify the motors all perform exactly the same in an application they really were never designed for? Absolutely not! If this process is unacceptable to some racers I suggest you go bowling, play bingo, or form a poker league. But don't try another form of racing that limits the power plant. ANY FORM! Because from RC to local dirt track racing you will run into the exact same issue with any kind of powered racing. Unless you get into unlimited off shore racing. Or unlimited tractor pulling. But prepare to spend a little more than $12.95 for your motors. 

(note:post edited by mod to indicate the correct retail price) 

[Ecurie Martini]

Sam makes a good point.  I don't have a horse in this race (I refuse to use the more common "dog in this fight" It references a practice I consider abhorrent)  In my slot racing world, wheelbase, track, and tire dimensions are measured to the mm, bodies are hard and to scale but, in general, motors are your choice.  I do have some experience in device and instrument manufacturing, both here in the US and in the far East and that is the basis for my comment.

 

Demming taught that one can investigate component and process variations, determine which have the greatest influence on product quality and establish controls accordingly.  These variations can be identified, measured and mitigated but they cannot be eliminated - "zero" tolerance is a myth.

 

Looking at the product under discussion here, one can start a very long list of sources of variation: the dies used for forming the can and stamping armature laminations are subject to wear and beyond a certain point will need to be restored or replaced.  The magnets are subject to variations in composition, casting and sintering.  The tension applied to wire during armature winding will change and the thickness of the insulation on the wire itself can vary etc. etc......

 

Assuming all of these factors are well within spec, there is another point to consider: stacking.  If we assume that each variation from the target specification will have a positive or negative effect on the outcome, in this case motor performance however it is measured, then, because we have no control over how the variations of each component or process are assorted (e.g. +-+-+-+-, ++++--++. ---++--- etc) we must accept the fact that, in any given "batch" most motors will be good, some will be very good and some will be bad.  Even 100% testing will only narrow this dispersion, not eliminate it.  The more typical statistical sampling will only reveal a major system-wide failure.

 

In some ways this reminds me of an observation made in 1:1 racing in the 50's.  It was a lot harder and often more expensive to prepare a competitive "production" race car than it was to do the same for what we called the "modified" classes.

 

EM

[glueside]

This continual bashing of JK from people who have alliterative motives is becoming pure bulls**t.  If you don't like the motor/manufacturer - shut up and stop racing their products.  If you want to race in a series that this is the only choice, either don't run the series or run and enjoy.  I have quit racing because of all of the crying from people about a company that is working extremely hard to make products better for all racing, Tim has went well above what he needs to do to help this cottage industry.  Tim is not taking a swipe at any racer - he is only showing where the issue is coming from and you all don't want to hear it - you only want to bash him.  Pure immature in my opinion.

 

Instead you all want to run motors that a certain person has the seals at their disposal - why is this?

[Don Weaver]

.....all of the crying from people about a company that is working extremely hard to make products better for all racing, Tim has went well above what he needs to do to help this cottage industry.

 

Amen !!

[Ralph Thorne]

This continual bashing of JK from people who have alliterative motives is becoming pure bulls**t. 
 
Instead you all want to run motors that a certain person has the seals at their disposal - why is this?

 

I've heard you and Tim make this claim continuously, as well as call his customers Henchmen and Islamic Jihadists, yet nobody can seem the declare what the alliterir motive is exactly?

Quite frankly this exaggerated claim is bogus, and beyond insulting to all the JK customers such as myself who have supported JK for over 17 years.

As my post stated, I hope he gets this one particular situation, with this one particular product fixed. All were asking for is acknowledgment of the problem, not blaming the racer, and a plan to to correct it. It shouldn't be to hard to say, "Unfortuantely we encountered an unexpected issue with our last batch of Hawk Retro motors and were looking into solving it on the next batch." That's all that had to be said months ago and this would never be an issue IMO.

Are you claiming John Miller is providing or selling Pro Slot seals?

[Samiam]

NO, we're saying Ron Hershman has Pro Slot seals in his possession. He is an authorized motor refurb vendor for RETRO racing. So there is absolutely no doubt he has PS seals.

 

OH... let me respond in advance to the question of "So what..?"

 

I repeat...

 

Please read tag line below.

[Ralph Thorne]

RETRO doesn't allow refurbs, and if you choose to run the Puppy Dog motor (which nobody does) it doesn't have to have a seal.

Once again, fake news.

[Samiam]

Taken from the RETRO website:

 

Motor- The following motors are allowed in the RETRO Flexi WSC
class.  Pro-Slot 4002 Sealed, PS-4002 B Sealed, P-S 4002 BB Sealed,
Trinity Evil 9, Fast Ones Demon, JK Hawk 7, Topline Falcon 7, TSR D3, Parma 501
Sealed, Pro-Slot 2002 Sealed, JK Retro Hawk, Pro-Slot 4002 FK

 

P-S 4002, 4002 B and 4002 BB motors may be reconditioned and
resealed by Pro-Slot or Fast Ones.

 

Fake news huh?  

[Ralph Thorne]

RETRO has only run one flexi race EVER, and it was hand-out motors, which Chris Radisich won.
 
Also, that doesn't mean Fast Ones can refurb it and put a Pro Slot seal on it. LOL.
 
So yes, fake news/incorrect attempted Hershman bashing which seems to be very popular on a site which he can't defend himself.

[Butters37]

Amazing to think that people actually believe some of this stuff LOL. You will never win that battle here, Ralph. Only hearsay and rumors will be spoken about. And actual facts from racers will be make you a henchman or a person trying to put a company out of business.

[Brinkley47]

I have asked for this thread to be deleted/locked. Merry Christmas and Shalom for the New Year.

[Ralph Thorne]

We can all sit here, theorize, make claims and pretend to be keyboard experts all we want.

 

It all comes down to this...

 

Does JK feel there is an issue with the current Hawk Retro motors, or are his customers just incompetent?

 

Tim publicly stated he changed the specs on the motor to improve consistency. Sometimes experiments don't work out, we get that.

 

Well respected people in the industry including some close to JK and IRRA BOD members have mentioned some things were changed without  him knowing. Hey, it's China, stuff happens and we get that too.

 

So does JK plan to makes changes to improve the next batch or not? That's all we want to know as racers, track owners and series directors. Once informed we can make our decisions, until then we'll all just sit here and discuss this until we're blue in the face.

 

It's Tim's move, and perosnally I hope he makes some changes so we can continue running these motors we all have.

[Samiam]

Well respected people in the industry including some close to JK and IRRA BOD members have mentioned some things were changed without  him knowing.

Is this "actual facts from racers"? or "hearsay and rumors"?

[Ralph Thorne]

Is this "actual facts from racers"? or "hear say and rumors"?

 

I'm calling it a fact, because I trust my source, and I can see the difference in brush material first hand.

 

On top of that I believe Greg's claim that Tim never asked to change the brush material (in post #15), and it's obviously different.

 

You can come to your own conclusion.

[Ramcatlarry]

Introducing organic chemicals such as Simple Green or any soap has carbon chain compounds. Tap water has other minerals and unknown contaminents. Submerged liquid break-in means the brushes are heating those chemicals under plasma electrical conditions and all sorts of unknown plating reactions can take place with the copper/brass commutators.  Bearing oils gumming up the reaction further the issue. I am not even certain the electrical cleaners are not the problem.
 
Does China even know what ISO 9000 QC is all about? I used to write the procedural manuals for two places I worked.

[Half Fast]

I have asked for this thread to be deleted/locked. Merry Christmas and Shalom for the New Year.

 

Why because many people have thoroughly refuted your premise that JK took a swipe at racers? Hmmm.

 

Cheers

[Samiam]

The thread can't be locked up yet. Nobody brought up built motors or mentioned food..

[The Number of]

Errr you just did.

[SlowBeas]

I've seen it written several times that Tim sought changes to make the motor more consistent. I have to assume this is true, since I don't have the time or the desire to research it myself. Also, I don't have the time needed to devote to being a competitive racer. But I remain somewhat curious about the arguments presented here.

 

Ignoring the issue of whether the motors are faster or slower than before, are they now more consistent overall? If so, Tim has been successful. Likewise, he produced an exhaustive scientific analysis of a more popular break-in method -- even though I'm not convinced it's wise to do in any situation other than track-side, where a fast break-in is needed.

 

Rather than continue attacks on Tim/JK (one of our few remaining providers) for the attempt made to identify a potential problem source, should we discuss calling on the IRRA BOD to determine if older motors need a sunset date? At least, if such a decision is made, everyone would be racing virtually-consistent motors.

 

Bash my idea all you want, but I can't believe this argument continues ad nauseum without reasonable, non-costly, suggestions.

[Butters37]

bingo

[Butters37]

Although I still have no faith in his report. Sorry not a racer and just because his machine tells him in a controlled environment he is right......the real world where people use his motors say otherwise. Go to a track and test. Not on a bench

[Brinkley47]

Looking forward to the R4 warmup in February.

[Butters37]

Liar lol

[Pat Skeggs]

I know what the problem is, we haven't raced in over a month. In my opinion Tim has tried hard to identify the problem. In reality something has changed in this batch of motors. Let's hope the next batch is better. Let's just race. Merry Christmas everyone.