Jump to content




Photo

JK takes another swipe at racers


  • Please log in to reply
319 replies to this topic

#151 tonyp

tonyp

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,089 posts
  • Joined: 12-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sanford, FL, land of lizards and big roaches

Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:59 PM

I had 45 Puppy Dogs and three were raceable.


  • Tim Neja likes this

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip





#152 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 337 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 27 December 2017 - 06:25 PM

And people aren't saying the same about Hawks now, I guess?


Jason Engel

#153 tonyp

tonyp

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,089 posts
  • Joined: 12-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sanford, FL, land of lizards and big roaches

Posted 27 December 2017 - 06:28 PM

I’d rather spend $13 apiece than $45.


  • Wizard Of Iz and Tim Neja like this

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#154 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 337 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:11 PM

Money difference is there. No arguing that at all. But the theory is the same
Jason Engel

#155 Dan Ebert

Dan Ebert

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erie, PA

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:11 PM

Bingo *********** we have the winner folks...   13 dollars over 50.   13 dollar motor is tamperproof.  I have the same chances as the next guy at the counter buying them.    Slower of not,  I would rather stay the course IRRA is on now.  Again,  for those pining to use those Puppy Dogs, Penn Ohio stills allows them.  Also at 13 bucks, I can buy more than at 50 a piece.  But that hasn't changed the entire time I have raced.  You  buy sets up and arms and hope you find the bullet.  The guys that preach the fallacy you only need to build one good motor to go and race.  You are full of ****,  look in the boxes of the top racers.  SO at 13 dollars I am more than happy to buy what I need.  If I want to find several.  I would just have to buy more.  Nothing has changed in the world of slot racing.  Those that claim different have their heads in the sand.


  • Tim Neja likes this
GallerymanDan

#156 willy wonka

willy wonka

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 627 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NE OH

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:12 PM

Again easy for you to say that after u took advantage of the situation how's that good for the hobby butters? Putting money in your pocket from the situation. Because u sold yours and can't get them now u wanna ban the old ones. Now racers who invested in this hobby has to pay the price? Yet Again? Why because some guy decided to change something up. There's no right answer u said ur opinion many times why keep stirring the pot when your done with retro racing other than your local track?
William Custer
To finish First you must first Finish

#157 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:29 PM

Whoever wins this lot better hope the 7R doesn't become the only legal motor.

https://www.ebay.com...119.m1438.l2649

 

The seller is pretty damn honest in his description of  what he's got there. 


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#158 Dan Ebert

Dan Ebert

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erie, PA

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:32 PM

I am not bashing or starting anything with you.  But I have a simple question Jason?   Since you don't race Penn Ohio why are the older motors a concern for you.  BRS allows PSFK's which any Retro Hawk cannot compete against speed wise.   ORS only allows 7R's  no older RH's allowed.  The R4 has used handouts in the new format.  So what is it you are concerned about.  Everywhere you are racing the older JK RH motors are not allowed or just can't compete with speed.  Penn Ohio is the only Series in the Ohio region that uses IRRA motor rules.


  • Cheater likes this
GallerymanDan

#159 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,702 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:35 PM

PEOPLE!!!!!

 

The "bitch" was that the motors weren't consistent. Tim (I have never spoken to him and don't know him) then went and improved consistency WITHIN the last batch. They are reported to be slower than previous batches BUT THEY'RE CONSISTENT. Isn't that what was the big complaint BEFORE now? You can't get change unless you change SOMETHING....

 

So, now the problem is that there's a small ocean of motors from a previous batch which are reportedly FASTER than the current batch and that those previous motors put many at a competitive disadvantage (GEE WHIZ! That NEVER happens in "real" racing, does it?).

 

Welcome to the real world people! Ever hear of specific vintage wines selling for more money? Ever hear of specific years of automobiles that are better? Guess the same forces are at work here too....


  • Cheater, Wizard Of Iz and NSwanberg like this
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#160 Jimmy Williams

Jimmy Williams

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 27 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:43 PM

Why would you want the r motors to be illegal? So we all have to race with 2 step motors? Yeah, I see a lot of fun in that.

 

A good friend and a customer of mine owns 23 retro hawk motors, all 7R. Out of the 23, 21 do the 2 step or never reach full speed and let me say, he is having a blast not being competitive in any scenario whatsoever (Please notice my sarcasm).



#161 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,364 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:46 PM

Jimmy, did you or your Dad tell him to send them to JK as requested?


  • JK Products likes this

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#162 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 337 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:53 PM

I made my money. All 150 dollars off of 3. I still have plenty of the old motors Willy. Im not searching for any actually.

Dan.....no offense but I do not have the desire to drive over 3 hours once a month to race in the penn Ohio. I live in Cincinnati. I truly would love to race in that series. Bud and Greg say nothing but great things about it. Its just that the schedule has conflicted for me this year so far. But the year is far from over and you never know.

The irra isnt going to in any way support anything that will make jk or its current products look bad in any light. So at this moment its either pay the money for the stashes of old ones or make due. Jimmy did the short shaft version of the hawk have any troubles? Can they still be purchased by you and sold in the shop? Werent those out of the first batch? Couldnt that be a bridge past what from all the people saying including me...that this batch is off in performance?

Its an option Willy. Simple as that. Nothing more nothing less. Do you think anything will really come of it on a premier level? Not a chance to many people have to many of the old motors to let that advantage slip away.
Jason Engel

#163 bbr

bbr

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,407 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LA

Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:54 PM


Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#164 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 788 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 27 December 2017 - 08:32 PM

Jimmy, seems to me you should be taking the 2-step issue up with JK and backing up your customers corner, not just saying "Bad luck dude I sold you 21/23 dogs".

 

I would have those 21 motors back to JK lickety-split and demand replacements for him, If I was running a business. Without customers, what do you have?


  • Jason Holmes likes this

#165 Dan Ebert

Dan Ebert

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erie, PA

Posted 27 December 2017 - 08:34 PM

I am really trying to understand why so many are concerned about the old motors.  The only people that should be complaining on the East Coast are Retro East, New England Retro, Mason Dixon, Penn Ohio and Ohio Challenge Cup racers.  { Please correct me if any other series in the Eastern USA use strictly Retro Hawks and allow all RH's}   Only one racer has raised concern in Penn Ohio.  I have seen and heard one racer in OCC with the motor issue.  One posted from Retro East.  The majority of complaints seems to come from outsiders that are not racing in any of these groups.  So why are they so worried.  I don't need a 7R to get beat.  I am doing a fine job on my own.  Thanks for the concern.


  • JK Products likes this
GallerymanDan

#166 Dominator

Dominator

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,127 posts
  • Joined: 19-September 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 December 2017 - 08:38 PM

This is sealed motor racing. Sometimes the performance is there and sometimes it's not. This is the one downside to sealed motors as aggregating as it can be sometimes.

Just as a example with the puppy dog. After they were banned I took one of my mid pack motors apart, cut the comm, ran a
535 hone through the magnets, aligned the bearings, and straightened the brush hoods. Put it back together and it was as good as any of my R motors.

My point is the majority, or about 50/50, don't want to build motors so this is where we are at.

Personally, I think the R versions of the hawk should be banned by a certain date as part of a long term solution. Short term solution should be 7R only in stockcar and coupe. It will level the field in these two classes. Can Am and F1 can run the R or 7R version. This will allow the guys with an inventory of the older motors to still use them.

Just an idea...


  • DOCinCocoa and Jaeger Team like this

A motor is only as fast as the chassis it's in.
 
Dominic Luongo

Like Dominator Custom Chassis on Facebook

 

NERR photos from 2012-April 2016
NERR photos from 2016 to now


#167 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 27 December 2017 - 09:07 PM

I like your ideas Dom. I would just add allowing built PDs in our own IRRA Anglewinder class. Who knows, it may jump start some interest in the now dormant class.


  • Dominator likes this
Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#168 usadar

usadar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,148 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo; Japan

Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:36 AM

JK is ordering a few thousand motors at a time from a Chinese manufacturer who is making millions of the same form-factor motor for their other customers per week, maybe even per day (Mabuchi, not the ony Chinese motor maker, says they produce 1.4 billion small DC motors a year, which is over 3.5 million motors a day!).

JK can specify a some things to customize that motor, but he can't specify, for example, the exact composition of the brushes they use, a custom-designed endbell, matched magnets, etc. The motor manufacturer is going to utilize the same pieces they have on hand for their other customers who are ordering this motor (in vastly larger quantities, I remind you again).
 
And those components will ocassionally run out and have to be re-ordered from the manufacturer's supplier and sometimes what comes in isn't exactly the same as before; sometimes the original component supplier has gone belly-up and the motor maker has to resource the part(s). At the volumes JK is ordering, it's do what you can and take what you can get and that's the case with anyone else who wants to supply motors for this hobby niche.
At the volume of motors JK is ordering, and at the price racers want to pay, not every aspect of the Retro Hawk motor can be spec'd or even controlled to give the kind of consistency everyone would like to have and that you are so insistently demanding. JK can't do it, Warren Buffet can't do it, Bill Gates can't do it.

Like my wise old grandmother used to say, "Just because you want it doesn't mean you can get it."

I wanted some Bacardi 151 rum for my egg nog a few weeks ago and I found to my chagrin that Bacardi doesn't make it any more!!! I can throw a big tantrum at the liquor store or even at Bacardi HQ in FL and it's not going to get me any 151 for my egg nog.

And to tell you the truth, a big glass of 151-spiked egg nog is just what I'd like right now, after having to listen again to the never-ending motor bitching that has been going on for, what, eight years now?


All these FK style motors are made with OEM parts and then assembled by your “factory” who can do things like change winds, balance to a better spec, etc. None of the motors is completely made in-house. The brushes and brush arms are made for the millions of motors produced outside of slot cars. Tim really has no control over them.
 
If you ever dealt with the Chinese you prepay and hope you get what you ordered.


I wonder if JK has the same official view as what is mentioned above.
  • The Number of likes this
Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo on Facebook
 
Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#169 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,128 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 28 December 2017 - 09:45 AM

Haruki, I won't presume to represent Tim's views for him, but your question reminded me of a post you made here in Oct 2016, which I think has some relevance to the discussion. Here's an excerpt:

"At the end of August, I visited Mabuchi headquarter to see their very top management, asking if they could supply us Retro motors like Retro Hawks...

Mabuchi says it is difficult for them to produce slot car motors in small quantity because their production is 100,000 as a minimum lot..."

And even over a year ago you were a voice of reason.

"Those who criticise, analize Retro Hawks should send their sampled Retro Hawks to Tim."
  • Tex likes this

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#170 Danny Zona

Danny Zona

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Holly Hill (DaytonaBch), FL

Posted 28 December 2017 - 10:07 AM

I'm against the 7R (older batches) being banned as suggested by some.

I and some racers are stocked up with the older motors and would lose out on a lot of money.

Plus, for the past year and a half or so. I've been told I'm crazy and proven wrong by racers data and facts about the subject of motor batches being different. Even though I thought different at the time I changed my mind after the facts and data was presented to me and others. It's hard to dispute data and facts so I conceded I was wrong.

So I've just been doing the you got to take the good with the bad theory the past year and a half or so. As suggested!

It would be crazy to me to be punished for buying a bunch of motors after being told by many racers and the manufacturer for a few years that different batches of motors are equally fast. I've seen plenty of data and facts on here that have proven motors are essentially equal.

I did see a 7R7R7R TQ and set a new track record in Can-Am at the Fall Brawl.
  • Tim Neja, Chris Barnes, crazyphysicsteacher and 1 other like this
Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Luck is the residue of design.

It's not about being right, it's getting it right.

Kelly Racing.

#171 usadar

usadar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,148 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo; Japan

Posted 28 December 2017 - 10:52 AM

I won't presume to represent Tim's views for him, but your question reminded me of a post you made here in Oct 2016, which I think has some relevance to the discussion. Here's an excerpt:

"At the end of August, I visited Mabuchi headquarter to see their very top management, asking if they could supply us Retro motors like Retro Hawks...

Mabuchi says it is difficult for them to produce slot car motors in small quantity because their production is 100,000 as a minimum lot..."

And even over a year ago you were a voice of reason.

"Those who criticise, analize Retro Hawks should send their sampled Retro Hawks to Tim."


Greg,

What you and Tony have said is reality.

I hope JK Products continue their effort to overcome this reality.

Good Racing,

Haruki
  • Cheater and crazyphysicsteacher like this
Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo on Facebook
 
Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#172 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,128 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:33 PM

A good friend and a customer of mine owns 23 retro hawk motors, all 7R. Out of the 23, 21 do the 2 step or never reach full speed...


And if he has not sent those motors to JK, please explain why he has not done so.

JK Tim's an engineer and IMO he is simply not going to take your word for it (certainly not with the vast amount of agenda-driven 'fake news' that permeates the internet these days and I for one don't blame him in that).

 

Give Tim the evidence to prove or disprove your statements please! Get your friend to send Tim the motors and if he doesn't replace them with new ones, I promise you I will!


  • Jason Holmes, Samiam, crazyphysicsteacher and 1 other like this

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#173 Jimmy Williams

Jimmy Williams

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 27 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York

Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:46 PM

I'm thinking about it right now but before I do send them to him, I want to do some testing of my own. I have every tool I could need and a track five feet away from me right now, something Tim does not have.


  • Tim Neja, Jason Holmes and Samiam like this

#174 Jason Holmes

Jason Holmes

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 787 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor CIty, CA

Posted 28 December 2017 - 02:04 PM

Jim

 

Pick 5 to test on your own and send the rest to Tim right now it looks like you have access to the biggest slug pile

 

jason


  • crazyphysicsteacher likes this

#175 CoastalAngler1

CoastalAngler1

    Outlaw Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,283 posts
  • Joined: 03-May 14
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Quit Wishin Go Fishin

Posted 28 December 2017 - 02:25 PM

Banning older RH motors will cause big issues with racers since all the claims from the manufacturer and the IRRA bosses have been that the performance is equal. 

 

Is it bad if you have a two step RH motor that starts out fast, then really screams down the straight?  Ralph saw this at FNRS in Florida with a bright orange NASCAR.  He still won the race.  

 

Not all hawks are created equal.  Tide goes out, tide comes in.

 

If you expect to buy one motor, race and win - you better wake up and start a motor program.  


Charlie McCullough

Charlie's Speed Shop

JK Hawk Horsepower Specialist

Bartos Chassis  CHR Cars

Outisight Bodies

Mossetti Racing

 






Electric Dreams Online Shop