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CNC: Chassis fabrication


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#1 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:21 PM

I posted some pictures of a desktop CNC machine I was planning on buying and there was some skepticism regarding whether it was rigid enough.

It would be easy for me to take my marbles and go home but rather I thought why dont I instead demonstrate the pros and cons of this type of machine and for those that are interested, well maybe I can answer some questions they may have. The other benefit is they can avoid the mistakes that I make as well so here goes.
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#2 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:27 PM

The machine I am planning on getting is the Yoda 2 by Source Rabbit of Greece. The materials I will be using initially are Aluminum (6061, 7075) Brass (C260, C280) and Carbon Fiber.

I will also be using RenShape Styling and Modeling Boards (Thank you Sandy Grant).

I am looking at Onshape as my CAD software and ESTLCam as my CAM software and G-Code Sender to send the g-code to the mill.
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#3 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:33 PM

This is the mill I plan to be using. The mill will be located in my family room and the dust collection will be on casters. These are the limitations I work under. The desktop gantry mill will allow for a larger work area but of course it is not as ridged as a traditional mill. It will be fine for the materials I have in mind. Any other part I need will be sourced.

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#4 eshorer

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:54 PM

Will you be using this to make Klasse 1 type chassis, or just anything that suits your fancy for bodies you like? 

Eddie


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#5 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 07:05 PM

Just so that everyone understands I have absolutely zero experience with machinery beyond using a Dremel so everything I present here is based upon my research or recent experience.

 

The first question many people have is I know that the computer is supposed to control a machine but is this really scratch building? Well let's begin with what we have, a plate of one or more pieces material and a blank computer screen. To begin with you need to make a vector drawing of your parts. I will be starting with making flat pieces and will purchase axle and motor holders as well as suspension parts.

 

The drawing program I will be using is an online CAD program called OnShape that is free (for now) when you allow your project files to be open to the public. This is a commercial grade software by some of the same guys that worked on Solidworks. Once you have the drawing completed you need to import the project into a CAM program that will build your tool paths. These are the commands that actually run the mill. These tool paths will be in the form of g-code that you can send via a driver or a g-code sender program. I will do the latter if and until a driver is created. Not a major issue. There are actually simulation programs that allow you to run and test your g-code which are really cool. 

 

The next step is to test on some practice material and this is where the styling ad modeling boards come in.

 

Onshape CAD Software

https://www.onshape.com/

 

ESTLCAM CAM Software

http://www.estlcam.com/

 

G-Code Sender Software

https://www.sourcera...m/GCode-Sender/

 

Online Metals

http://www.onlinemetals.com/

 

Freeman Manufacturing and Supply Company

https://www.freemansupply.com/


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#6 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 07:11 PM

Klasse 12 Standard requires Scaleauto Chassis but Klasse 1 Advanced is open chassis. I also plan on making chassis for MiniZ and the 1/24 Carrera. Area71 is coming out with some super Nylon Bodies which i hope to make metal chassis for but I can even see making them for American Hardbodies where I would make a standard (IROC) type chassis for scale wheels. I could see these made of brass with only a few or no screws. LOL  

 

I can easily see making brass pans for retro chassis as well.


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#7 rvec

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 07:59 PM

Dennis,
This is very cool. Sorry is I don't understand all of the nomenclature so pardon me if the question has already been answered. It would be neat to create an H bracket chassis using .05 or .062 brass (The .062 is readily available). Can the machine handle brass that thick? If so, the center section as well as brass side and front pans could be cut. Can the machine cut holes in the brass? Can it countersink?

Keep the group informed. Maybe a DDavid chassis is in the offing!

Rich Vecchio


#8 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:09 PM

Rich it can do all of that and more. It can counter sink and thread the hole. Heaven forbid but if you wish to be involved you'll need to go over o the dark side and work in millimeter. 

 

A lot of this is still a mystery to me so hopefully a few of you can join me on my journey of discovery. For now here is a video showing you how threaded holes are created. A lot of this is already available in the forum or you can create your own and save it for future use. I will be doing my own presets.

 


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#9 Samiam

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:30 PM

 

 

The first question many people have is I know that the computer is supposed to control a machine but is this really scratch building?

 

Dennis,

As far as parts for Retro racing the rule is this:

 

Chassis parts, such as
pans, brackets, guide tongues, etc., that are
made using EDM, laser, or water-cutting
techniques are allowed only if they are individually
commercially available components or
components of chassis kits (i.e. these
techniques may not be used in the private
manufacture of one-off components)
 
So I believe anything you make will be legal for Retro use.

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#10 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:39 PM

 

Dennis,

As far as parts for Retro racing the rule is this:

 

Chassis parts, such as
pans, brackets, guide tongues, etc., that are
made using EDM, laser, or water-cutting
techniques are allowed only if they are individually
commercially available components or
components of chassis kits (i.e. these
techniques may not be used in the private
manufacture of one-off components)
 
So I believe anything you make will be legal for Retro use.

 

Sam I am not so sure I agree with you. I need to think about it but parts produced would still be machine made so just because the mill is not mentioned does not mean it is within the intent of the rule.

 

That's one for the folks making the rules to ponder.


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#11 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:51 PM

Good question but how about if I make the pans on a band saw? How is that all that different?

 

Using EDM, Laser or water-jet cutting would require machines beyond what a regular scratch builder have available but with these new desktop milling machine available for under $1000 maybe technology is catching up with retro. Do we ban band saws and how do we do that?

 

Anyway Retro is not really my target audience. I'm more interest in scale racers and adjustable chassis.


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#12 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:56 PM

The band saw is not computer driven and capable of that kind of precision or repetition. But it is not up to me to make the call.


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#13 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 09:00 PM

One more thing, the band saw is much more affordable for many than the CNC mill.


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#14 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 09:08 PM

If you create a part and run it through tech I bet it will pass unless it is some kind of thing that could not be created by hand.


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#15 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 09:10 PM

You have no argument from me. Of course all I would need to do then would be to make any part commercially available. Still Retro is not my target audience and there are enough excellent kits available.


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#16 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 09:13 PM

What interest me more is Euro Scale racing and proxy racing. You find 3dp chassis showing up. But the issue I have with these are they are too flexible and I want a stiffer chassis that brass and aluminum will provide me.  


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#17 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 09:19 PM

Back on topic certain major decisions are required.

 

Material

Mill

Software

Dust Collection

Lubrication

 

 

The main reason I went with a mill instead of 3DP is the material I can use with the machine in my price range which is under $3500. I went with the Yoda 2 because of my space requirements and I wanted a machine that would cut Aluminum and Brass. The fact that it used a proper spindle rather than a router was also important. A German Spindle doesn't hurt. I looked at the frame and this one uses a fairly stout steel frame.

 

Software had to be cheap and relatively easy to use or at least understandable. I don't consider myself a maker and don't want to tinker with the machine or software. 

 

Dust Collection is important and it needed to fit in the space I have or be moveable. It also needed to work with metal so bag type collectors were mostly out. I wanted CFM to be at least 125 but preferable at least 200.

 

Lubrication could wait and be applied by hand in the meantime.


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#18 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 11:53 AM

I think this is an excellent project and shall be watching developments very carefully.  So far as some other questions - in my opinion, if you design it, set up the tool to make it and control all aspects of the process, it is "hand made"  A tool is a tool.  Is there a difference, for example, in chassis pans cut from sheet brass by scoring and bending, cutting with a jeweler's saw, or using a table top bench saw with a metal cutting blade?  How about using a digital caliper instead of a machinists rule?  I use a miniature "chop" saw to get square cuts on brass tubing.

 

If you are cutting, not grinding or sanding, dust will not be much of a problem.  For wood, CF, pc board and plastic a small vacuum nozzle in the vicinity of the cutter will work.  For brass and aluminum, use a bit of cutting oil applied by hand during the process.  The swarf will stay near the work point and can simply be wiped off when done,  Cooling in the conventional sense is not needed especially if you use carbide cutters and modest cutting speed.


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#19 Half Fast

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:05 PM

I am learning new things on this Blog, like new words:
 
SWARF: fine chips or filings of stone, metal, or other material produced by a machining operation.
 
Dennis have fun. looking forward to seeing your results
 
Cheers

Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now

 

 


#20 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:25 PM

Alan is a man to be listened to. 👍

I think dwarf is an old Yiddish term LOL

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#21 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:27 PM

600 CFM bags are $25

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#22 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:29 PM

400 CFM Uses tray which is good but filter is $250 Replaced maybe yearly.

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#23 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:32 PM

These two machines are used in the jewelry business which approximates my usage profile.

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#24 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:56 PM

There is no reason why these devices won't work but are they overkill?  In jewelry manufacture, you are dealing with all day, every day activity and associated risk mitigation and also, creation of waste (gold, silver, platinum) that is probably valuable enough to warrant recovery.

 

Of course, keep in mind that I grew up and began these activities in the days before OSHA.  My father and I would clean the brass rails of our HO layout with rags soaked in carbon tetra-chloride held in bare hands. (70 years later my liver is still quite functional - accommodates my evening single malt with no ill effects)

 

EM


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#25 swodem

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:12 PM

What’s wrong it’s a Taig CNC mill?


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#26 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:15 PM

Nothing. Just decided to go in a different direction. More X and Y and less Z. LOL

Anyway these posts will not be about what machine to buy but rather about drawings, tool paths, materials and the end result which is what matters.

I plan to make parts that I can use in the building of slot cars and have fun along the way.

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#27 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:16 PM

Alan I would rather go with overkill. Its the same with paint and solder fumes. My mill will be in an enclosed space in the house and not the garage.

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#28 MSwiss

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:36 PM

Just keep in mind you are going to be creating chips, vs. dust.

Mike Swiss
 
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#29 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:38 PM

Yes, for the most part but take a look at the following video.

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#30 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:43 PM


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#31 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:45 PM

Looks pretty dusty
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#32 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 02:49 PM


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#33 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 03:33 PM

Looks like a very capable piece of gear.  HSS steel cutters will wok but carbide is sharper and will last many times longer.  I tended to use multi - edge rather than single edge bits.  From looking at the way it cuts aluminum, I would bet that, should the need arise, you could cut mild (not spring tempered) steel - just go slow, use a sharp bit and plenty of lubricant.  I assume that the spindle speed is variable.

 

With the right programming, you could teach it to engrave a logo.

 

EM

 

PS - another person with a great deal of experience in this arena - Dennis Samson (I don't know if he posts here)


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#34 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 03:54 PM

5000-25,000rpm

Sandy Grant out of the UK is doing something similar to what I am doing and a couple of guys in Germany. If you take away the machine and focus on CAD, tool paths and cutting tools its pretty similar to any other CNC Mill.

The question is when would steel be preferable to 7075 Aluminum.

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#35 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 04:24 PM

5000-25,000rpm

Sandy Grant out of the UK. If you take away the machine and focus on CAD, tool paths and cutting tools its pretty similar to any other CNC Mill.

The question is when would steel be preferable to 7075 Aluminum.

 

If you are making a part that you need to bend or need adequate strength in a very thin section or need to solder to it.

 

5000 RPM should be OK with small tools - what you are concerned about is surface speed - tool circumference X RPM - it is different for different materials.  There are tables in places like the Machinist's Handbook.  I had one but it went when I sold my mill.

 

EM


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#36 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:09 PM

Yes I have the handbook! Were talking 3mm end Mills

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#37 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:58 PM

OK - I recall that cutting speeds in steel were about 100ft/min

 

3mm radius X 3.14 = 9.42 mm = .38 " = .031' X 5000 = 154'/min - dodgy

 

Drop to 1/16 end mill and you're @ 82'/min

 

Most of my chassis were cut with a 1/16 tool - if you don't push them, they don't break too often - but I always bought them in packs of 5!

 

One of the real advantages of CAM is that you can set your feeds low and don't have to stand there and try crank slowly and evenly.  The hard part is getting used to the idea that the machine does not need you standing there and watching.

 

EM


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#38 Dennis David

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 06:21 PM

Wonderful. Yes this is exactly the things you need to think about when you do CNC milling regardless of the Mill you use, the physics are the same.

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#39 Dennis David

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:44 PM

Two books I bought a few years back when I first started think of making my own parts. Though they dont focus on CNC they still have lots of useful information. So what about a good book on CNC? Well I've looked and I would have to say fuhgeddaboudit that is until I found the CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition. A 600 page textbook.

 

 

You'll be better served by checking out online resources like:

 

CNCZone

http://www.cnczone.com/

 

CNCCookbook

https://www.cnccookbook.com/index/

 

Modern Machine Shop

https://www.mmsonline.com/

 

Practical Machinist

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/

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#40 Dennis David

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 03:38 PM

One thing that I need to stress is that I tend to go for door number 2 when door number 1 is cheaper and often almost as good. I will try to add some lower price options when possible. 

 

One piece of advise is any dust extraction is better than none. If you want to use a shop vac I might suggest you look for something with a CFM over 90 and consider a Cyclone Dust Deputy by Oenida Air as a 1st stage.

 

https://www.oneida-a...UgaAsi6EALw_wcB


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#41 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 03:40 PM

I have been a poster/reader on CNC Zone for years - very valuable source.

 

EM


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#42 grooverunner

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 03:58 PM

Dennis

 

I have a Oenida Air  V system dust collector in my Cabinet shop piped to all the machines. Oenida is 1st rate on there cyclonic designs. I have had other dust collectors alot of them were rated higher cfm pull/ suction of the the V system I have now, but in reality didn't even have close to the suction or the efficiency of the Oenida 

 

I been planning to get a dust deputy for my Mill for awhile but haven't yet, if it is even close to there larger systems on cyclonic design it should be great for the application.

As a first stage it will get all the large pieces and fine partials/ dust is all that should be in the shop vac.

 

Ken 


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#43 Dennis David

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 04:10 PM

I've been talking to Greg (Not about Retro Hawks) and he agreed to create a sub forum called "Computer Numerical Control / Computer Aided Manufacturing & 3D Printing (CNC/CAM & 3DP)".

 

Now doesn't that just roll off the top of your tongue. I guess the first thing I need to do is change the name to Computer Aided Manufacturing. Hopefully I can get others to contribute, especially with regards to 3DP so this doesn't become an echo chamber. LOL  


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#44 Half Fast

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 04:18 PM

I'm learning a lot here guys, keep it up and thanks. :good:

 

Cheers


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#45 Dennis David

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 04:37 PM

To help people I will be organizing the information as I progress. For now I am realizing that I need to at least consider buying a PC because more software is available on that machine than on a Mac. Now I understand that you can find many Mac substitutes but what I have found is just not the same. After going through a tutorial of Solid Edge 2D which had cost just under $1000 before it was made free I have not found a Mac software that's as easy. to use. Heck I can always use it as my game machine as well.

 

So I am looking at a slim desktop and a 21:9 monitor to be dedicated to CNC and the odd game or two. 


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#46 Dennis David

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 09:31 PM

Ken, sorry I did not see your post. This is the 1.5HP V-1500 HEPA Dust Collector 35 Gal Freestand version for $1,759.  Though I think my wife would kill me if she found this in our family room.  I was thinking of the metal version but the shop vac doesn't have enough CFM and the ones that have 125+ are expensive so I decided to look at one of the small metal dust extractors that have 400-600 CFM.

v-system.jpg

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#47 grooverunner

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 10:17 PM

Dennis,

 

I wasn't saying get a similar machine as I have, that would be definitely over kill for you :laugh2:

The regular Dust Deputy attached to good shop vac with a fine filter on the shop vac should work for you, I would think :unknw:

 

By the way how did you sell a desktop gantry mill to the wife, and to put it in her family room to boot.. You must have a really nice and understanding wife..

 

 

 

Ken


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#48 Dennis David

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 11:01 PM

Regular shop-vac doesn't suck enough.

 

Actually it hasn't arrived yet plus I would not run it while she is around unless she's running her $600 juicer which is louder than my mill and dust extractor combined! I chose a gantry style desktop mill because it's more like an art/conversation piece rather than some big greasy piece of equipmenrt. LOL

 

Besides I can always remind her of her $500 ladder or Kirby vacuum.  :laugh2:


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#49 MSwiss

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 11:59 PM

Ken, sorry I did not see your post. This is the 1.5HP V-1500 HEPA Dust Collector 35 Gal Freestand version for $1,759.  Though I think my wife would kill me if she found this in our family room.  I was thinking of the metal version but the shop vac doesn't have enough CFM and the ones that have 125+ are expensive so I decided to look at one of the small metal dust extractors that have 400-600 CFM.

v-system.jpg

Oneida cyclone?

This mean like this?

20171228_224858-1.jpg

I haven't used mine since 2009.

When I was in an industrial spot, the huge bracket that supported it, was bolted to my cement block wall's.

Since I moved to regular retail spots, I've used a Ridgid shop vac, because I've been too lazy to build a stand.

20171228_222018-1.jpg

It works pretty well, but I'm just sucking MDF/sawdust.

When I bought mine, in 2004, I don't really remember a stand, like the one shown, being available.

Mike Swiss
 
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#50 Dennis David

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 12:22 AM

Cool. You sure that ist a North Korean missle part painted to look like a Cyclone?
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