Jump to content




Photo

Try this with your dud Hawk Retros


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 705 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 30 December 2017 - 11:14 PM

Thinking about all you guys who race HR's and have the 2-speed issue, I firmly believe the heart of the problem will be with the comm/brushes.
 
Unless the arm winds are faulty, or the magnets lack any strength, and its oiled with the right (bushing) oil, there's not much else left.
 
I know whenever my G12's go flat, its normally the comm and a light skim brings them back
 
So, how to do this on a sealed can?
 
I went back to how I used to run in F7's when we ran them, and they always came up clean and shiny when I ran them in submerged in Turpentine. This solvent seems to take a long time to run them in, but leaves the copper shiny and clean. I think because Turps is such a poor conductor of electricity (much much worse than water) and good conductor or heat, it runs very cool with no arcing, allowing the abrasive action of the brush to literally rub the comm clean. I wondered whether it could restore  a dirty old one.

365323604dcc3afe663a39c62b6c6d97.jpg
 
First, I took pic of it dirty (hasn't had a whole lot of use, but hasn't been run for 2-3 years as well), and then cleaned with an ultrasonic cleaner. This didn't move the carbon from the comm but it did remove all the oils and some scunge from the com slots - which were not too bad to start with.

f0de25f10390700b5eb49c416b8538a3.jpg

So next pic is of it cleaned, dried, scratched up to prove same motor, and a slightly different lighting. Then, the following pics are at 10min, 20min, 30min, 40min and 1 hr. Just got better and better. amps settled sown and stopped jumping around.
 
Please someone give it a go and see if it helps your 'dogs' - may not, but just may.
 
Caution - always stop and start with it submerged, never drop it in the turps running.
 
Clean turps out in a sink with water and detergent, then rinse detergent out, then I dry my stuff in the clothes dryer sitting on a shoe rack, but in an oven on real low would do too.
Or use a hair dryer if you look like Ace Ventura.
 
Obviously wont work with sealed minicans like the PS4002FK as solvents and adhesives and inks don't mix, the seals will fall apart, and the blue ink washes off, but, there is direct access to the comm and brushes anyway so not necessary.
 
Note of course after all this running in Turps and subsequent cleaning in detergent there is NO oil left on the shaft/bushing so a good lube afterwards is necessary before running again


  • team burrito, Half Fast, Tim Neja and 3 others like this




#2 Ramcatlarry

Ramcatlarry

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,055 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Charles, IL 60174

Posted 31 December 2017 - 12:06 AM

Interesting test.  I am thinking along the same lines that the SG and the brush arcing plates the comm with a layer of carbon.  Desolving the carbon is the issue and I am thinking of trying a solution of Peroxide to leach the carbon from the copper.

 

Let the ALCHEMY proceed.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... (for now)
race directing around Chicago-land

USRA 2017 member #404
USSCA  member

Host 2006 ISRA/USA
Great Lakes Slot Car Club member
60+ year pin Racing rail/slot cars in America


#3 crazyphysicsteacher

crazyphysicsteacher

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 157 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ

Posted 31 December 2017 - 09:09 AM

Interesting.  My comms never get that bad.  If they did I would have gotten rid of them because the brush was in self-destruction mode.  Another way to clean the comm's to like new brightness is using any of the available model train rail cleaners.  Rail ZIp-2 is one of them.  Just put some on a paint applicator and touch it to the comm, rotate it while touching the comm for those who are just learning.  Then give a quick squirt of lighter fluid to rinse it all off.  The comm will look like new.  I personally use a rail cleaning product I got from the Greenberg train show years ago.  Stuff is awesome for getting the comm perfectly clean, but remember, you do need to run the motor before use and you do need the brushes to produce a track on the comm before you will get the best performance.  Just don't let it turn pasty like the pictures in post one.


  • Ramcatlarry, Half Fast and Samiam like this

Chris Wendel
Silver Side Down Racing
Silver Side Down Graphics

​The Race Place Retro Crew member

"Failure teaches way more than success. It shows what does not work and what to never do again, again..." 🙊🙈🙉  


#4 Bernard Powell

Bernard Powell

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts
  • Joined: 17-December 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 31 December 2017 - 09:30 AM

The main thing you must remember after any type of cleaning that you do in this way is to check the segments of the comm. Then make sure they're clean. A small x-acto blade gets in there and wipe out each one. Save yourself trouble, this works the best.



#5 Dominator

Dominator

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,075 posts
  • Joined: 19-September 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 December 2017 - 11:37 AM

What voltage and how long did it take to break in a new motor?

A motor is only as fast as the chassis it's in.
 
Dominic Luongo

Like Dominator Custom Chassis on Facebook

 

NERR photos from 2012-April 2016
NERR photos from 2016 to now


#6 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 705 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 31 December 2017 - 01:34 PM

What voltage and how long did it take to break in a new motor?


I always broke them in at 4v, and from memory took 30min-1hr depending on whether it was a Falcon7 or Hawk7




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

#7 dalek

dalek

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts
  • Joined: 25-October 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central FL

Posted 01 January 2018 - 10:02 AM

Thinking about all you guys who race HR's and have the 2-speed issue, I firmly believe the heart of the problem will be with the comm/brushes.
 

 

I don't agree -- I think the cause is shaft chatter.
 
In Post #13 in the following thread, 
 
 
there is a link to a video of a H7 on my power supply at about 9 volts.  The video demonstrates that I could make the motor jump up to the second speed by flicking the armature shaft with my finger nail.  
 
To me, that strongly suggests that the problem is armature shaft chatter -- not comm and brushes.

  • CoastalAngler1 likes this
Dale King
 
Home Raceway

#8 Eddie Fleming

Eddie Fleming

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,055 posts
  • Joined: 27-April 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayetteville, GA

Posted 01 January 2018 - 10:21 AM

Interesting idea.

 

 I would like to hear how a motor runs for a length of time after this turpentine treatment. It looks good but is the porous brush holding turpentine and what effect will that have as the motor runs and heats up?


  • swodem likes this
Eddie Fleming

#9 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 01 January 2018 - 10:29 AM

I'm going to try both Steve's and Chris's methods or a combination of both on a bag of "duds" I got from a local racer who deemed them unworthy of A-main duty. To Eddie's concerns I'll clean with a good motor spray.

 

Thanks for the tips.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#10 gjc2

gjc2

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 458 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amityville, NY

Posted 01 January 2018 - 10:51 AM

There’s a product called Krud Kutter that’s very effective in cleaning the “krud” off the plates of an electrostatic air purifier. I wonder how it would work on motors. It isn’t flammable. 

 

Here's a link . . . . . https://www.rustoleu...nds/krud-kutter


George Cappello

#11 Dallas Racer

Dallas Racer

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,770 posts
  • Joined: 03-November 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas, TX

Posted 01 January 2018 - 11:05 AM

 

 

I don't agree -- I think the cause is shaft chatter.
 
In Post #13 in the following thread, 
 
 
there is a link to a video of a H7 on my power supply at about 9 volts.  The video demonstrates that I could make the motor jump up to the second speed by flicking the armature shaft with my finger nail.  
 
To me, that strongly suggests that the problem is armature shaft chatter -- not comm and brushes.

 

 

The video you surprisingly caught a bunch of @#$% for (I still don't understand why). For those of you  that don't know, you can click on the post number and it will give a direct link to that post: http://slotblog.net/...drome/?p=699948


Phil Smith ® ™


#12 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 705 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 03 January 2018 - 07:45 PM

Interesting idea.
 
 I would like to hear how a motor runs for a length of time after this turpentine treatment. It looks good but is the porous brush holding turpentine and what effect will that have as the motor runs and heats up?


Shouldn’t be an issue, rinsed and soaked in water. I don’t believe the brushes are porous


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

#13 CoastalAngler1

CoastalAngler1

    Outlaw Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,282 posts
  • Joined: 03-May 14
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Quit Wishin Go Fishin

Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:06 PM

 

 

I don't agree -- I think the cause is shaft chatter.
 
In Post #13 in the following thread, 
 
 
there is a link to a video of a H7 on my power supply at about 9 volts.  The video demonstrates that I could make the motor jump up to the second speed by flicking the armature shaft with my finger nail.  
 
To me, that strongly suggests that the problem is armature shaft chatter -- not comm and brushes.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the henchmen agree. 


Charlie McCullough

Charlie's Speed Shop

JK Hawk Horsepower Specialist

Bartos Chassis  CHR Cars

Outisight Bodies

Mossetti Racing

 


#14 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 705 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:08 PM

Solution?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

#15 CoastalAngler1

CoastalAngler1

    Outlaw Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,282 posts
  • Joined: 03-May 14
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Quit Wishin Go Fishin

Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:13 PM

Pay to play business model - Buy more motors until you're happy.  

 

Quitters are weak and can't win anyway. 

 

Retro Hawks need swimming lessons, don't read the back of the package.

 

Money buys speed.

 

Give duds to kids at the track.

 

Go fishing when you can.


  • bluecars likes this

Charlie McCullough

Charlie's Speed Shop

JK Hawk Horsepower Specialist

Bartos Chassis  CHR Cars

Outisight Bodies

Mossetti Racing

 


#16 DavidR

DavidR

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Joined: 08-June 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GA

Posted 07 January 2018 - 02:13 PM

10-15 seconds in simple green will turn a dirty com bright and shiny too. As to the two speed thing its not dirty coms causing it, brand new shiny motors do it right out of the pack.
  • Tim Neja and JerseyJohn like this
David Rodgers

#17 team burrito

team burrito

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts
  • Joined: 15-September 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SF Bay area

Posted 07 January 2018 - 05:16 PM

Shouldn’t be an issue, rinsed and soaked in water. I don’t believe the brushes are porous

 

all brushes & oilites are sintered therefore porous.


Russ Toy (not Troy)
First Place Loser in the JK Products
International D3 Builders Competition

#18 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 07 January 2018 - 05:42 PM

The porosity of the brushes can be checked by soaking some scrap pieces in turpentine, rinse and then hit with a lighter. I would do it but I sent my dead ones to Havlicek for recycling and resurrection.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#19 old & gray

old & gray

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 509 posts
  • Joined: 15-April 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CT

Posted 07 January 2018 - 11:08 PM

The porosity of the brushes can be checked by soaking some scrap pieces in turpentine, rinse and then hit with a lighter. I would do it but I sent my dead ones to Havlicek for recycling and resurrection.

Sam,

I have a problem with your description. A retro hawk sent to John will be recycled but not resurrected. Reincarnation in a new form is a better description of John's work. :D


  • Samiam likes this
Bob Schlain





Electric Dreams Online Shop