213 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

Tony,

 

You found me out, "Mr. only one-time G7, King track single lap world record holder."

LOL.

[raisin27]

I don't know the criteria for approving a motor but on the surface a half second spread seems pretty wide to me. If that's the standard then the current 7R motors are within spec.

[MSwiss]

Raisin,

 

My personal opinion for submissions needing to be reopened is based on the rash of defective 7Rs, i.e. racers hesitant to buy new 7R motors.

 

Since we've been running GTP with the HR, 4.3-4.7 is what I see. I'll be testing four motors, not 400. If the motor runs 4.7, and is within spec, I would see no reason not to give my (one vote/20%) approval.

 

Racers can decide if they want to buy them.

[Eddie Fleming]

Is the Falcon 7 still a legal motor? And when was the last time anyone ran or even tried one.

[Noose]

Yes, they are. Guys have run them in our series. They are prevalent on the west coast in flat track racing.

 

I tried one about two weeks ago on a Hillclimb - a fast one - and it was OK but brakes faded much more quickly.

[JBProducts]

I bought two Prof Motor Hawks. I'm going to test them on the Hillclimbs down here in FL land for fun. LOL.

[Danny Zona]

Thanks for reminding me, Charlie.

I'm new at this. All those claims in my signature are made up.

I will say in Charlie's defense. He has witnessed a few interesting ways of testing motors down here. I know I have.

He should have known better in your case though.

[Dan Ebert]

I can't say exactly which classes or how many. But this weekend's Penn-Ohio race at HMS on their American blue King. Puppy Dogs were used by two different racers. One took a third place in the F1 A Main and overall finish. Another racer used a Falcon motor in Can Am and F1.  He qualified into the A Main with that Falcon.

[Cheater]

... rash of defective 7Rs...

Sorry, I believe this is not a fair statement based on what I am seeing and hearing, including your own posts over the last few weeks. A "rash," inferring a signficant number?

[MSwiss]

Greg,

You don't own a raceway.
 
I have the racer whose motor I had to "re-endbell", beg me to change the motor rules to the 4002FK.
 
He's had 3 or 4 flaky motors, out of the last 5 or 6, he's bought. He didn't get to race last Wednesday because he didn't have a properly-running car.
 
I didn't get to get his $10, in the process. That was $10 less towards my "Chicago rent," that my landlord likes at the first of every month.
 
And Bernard just reported two bad motors, last night. I drove one and tested the other on my power supply, to confirm.
 
All done while I should have been performing $$-generating tasks, to take care of the above.

[Arne Saknussem]

The only way this can work is for all entrants to bring a motor to the race and toss it in a bag. After all the motors are collected, everyone draws one from the bag. I figure everyone will bring a slow motor and that should even up the playing field nicely.

[Brinkley47]

No. Lets not do that.

[Phil Hackett]

Sometimes it happens if you sit back long enough and think about the whole instead of self.

 
Now that's some deep thinkin'. I approve.

[JK Products]

"My personal opinion for submissions needing to be reopened is based on the rash of defective 7Rs"

 
Mike, over a month ago I asked you for specific input on your motor concerns. The only response I got from you was "The brushes, the brushes, the brushes, the brushes." without any data, any lap times, any dates, etc.  [/size]
 
Now you make a public claim of "defective 7Rs." Please support this assertion with any specific facts or direct observations of motor performance you might have.
 
Do you expect anyone to believe that you are an unbiased IRRA^® BoD member?

[CDavis7]

As a racer who supports his series to the best of his ability, I simply have two perspectives to share:

1. I sincerely believe that Tim is trying to improve the consistency of the motors he distributes. Consistency may, in fact, result in generally slower motors than what was produced previously. I wont get into the math on this unless needed.

2. The IRRA BoD seems to, on a nearly daily basis, be looking for a fight. I don't understand this. 15 seconds of considering another persons point of view could go a long, long way, in reinforcing your stated goal of advancing and improving Retro racing participation. There are many points of view and experiences related to the motor issue. Please stop meeting every question and concern about motor rules with an attack on those who don't immediately cheer a change to the rules. Racers did not spend Monopoly money.

[MSwiss]

Tim,

 

I told you of a 2-speed motor, 11 months ago, and you elected not to investigate.

 

Here's the correspondence I had with my old boss, Stu Koford, on my old time, trying to solve your problem for you, after my phone complaint to you, fell on deaf ears;

 

Me in Green, Stu in Red

 

On Feb 8, 2017, at 5:35 PM, Mike Swiss <mikeswiss86@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Stu,

 

A few questions;

With the newer JK "disposable" FK motors, the brushes are very hard.

Guys talk about running them on a power supply doesn't do much, even after 10 hrs.

They say putting a load on them, running them on the track, works much better.

For those without easy track access, any suggestions of a good way to put a load on them, while on the power supply?

 

Also, on those cheap motors, there are occasional cases of the motor, starting the heat,running a bit slow, but picking up/"kicking in", about 30 seconds into the heat.

 

Any theories on what is going on?

 

My theory was possibly a marginal comm connection, that somehow makes better contact once the motor warms up.

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

From: Stuart Koford <mail@koford.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 5:59 PM
To: Mike Swiss
Subject: Re: New 2/8/17order

 

Hi Mike,

 

As to the questions, if the running slow to start with and then picking up just happens when the motor is new then maybe it is because the brushes are getting seated.

 

As for the break in issue, the only alternative to a long break in time on a power supply or breaking the motor in on the track might be to break it in under water.  It will break in rapidly in water.

 

The best performance should be breaking in on a power supply, the lower the voltage the better the results (but the longer it will take).

 

Regards,

 

Stuart

 

On Feb 8, 2017, at 7:39 PM, Mike Swiss <mikeswiss86@hotmail.com> wrote:

In the case of the motor running slow the beginning of the heat, it will do it all 8 heats of the race.

IOW, 30 seconds slow, sudden speed increase for the remaining 2 1/2 minutes, and as mentioned it will repeat each heat.

Something is apparently happening each time the motor hits a certain temperature.

M

 

Stuart Koford <mail@koford.com>

Wed 2/8/2017, 6:51 PMYou Odd.  Maybe it has something to do with the formulation of those hard brushes.  I don’t think it is the comm connection.  I am sure that the connection is pressed not welded but in my experience if a comm weld goes bad it doesn’t recover.

 

Tim,

 

Does the above look like the work of someone with a JK bias, or of someone who is concerned, and wants slot racing to "run" as drama-free as possible?

 

Again, I quizzed him on my own dime, in the hope of getting help for you, to help prevent the situation, this has now become.

 

After Dave Gass gets to race this week, with my repaired Hawk Retro, I will take it out of his car and send it to you along with the original endbell.

[kvanpelt]

Mike, over a month ago I asked you for specific input on your motor concerns. The only response I got from you was "The brushes, the brushes, the brushes, the brushes." without any data, any lap times, any dates, etc.  
 
Now you make a public claim of "defective 7Rs." Please support this assertion with any specific facts or direct observations of motor performance you might have.
 
Do you expect anyone to believe that you are an unbiased IRRA^® BoD member?

 
Yes, I do without any doubt.
 
IMO, he has defended you more than deserved.

[JK Products]

Does the above look like the work of someone with a JK bias, or of someone who is concerned, and wants slot racing to "run" as drama-free as possible?

Actually Mike, it's further proof of your bias for two primary reasons:
 
1. Until now you never offered any information supporting any problem other than your opinion that it's "The brushes, the brushes, ..." with no supporting specific information or even how this affects motor performance. Sure, if the brushes are harder break-in would take longer, but what affect would it have on motor performance?
 
2. You never shared the information you presented here with me until now. Why did you hide this information from me?

 

3. More importantly, what exact problem have you directly observed that makes you call our motors "defective"? Not second hand or third hand, not repeating other people's opinions, your first hand observations and experience?

[Dominator]

Motor brush hardness absolutely will affect performance. Seen it with 16Ds, C-cans, and open motors.

[MSwiss]

Tim,

2 - WRONG - I remember the phone conversation.
 
I brought up the problem and asked how the comm connection were made. You explained it and assured me that couldn't be an issue. Hence me quizzing Stu.
 
PS: More free advice.
 
When you try to make a claim, you need to make a claim that makes sense.
 
(paraphrasing) "Mike Swiss is biased against JK".
 
In reality, Mike Swiss has spent the last 10 years, which include co-designing the last two JK Retro chassis, being accused of being a JK shill.
 
Your claim looks silly.
 
Mail order to drop off, races to run.
 
Bye, bye.

[Frankie Schaffier]

Do you expect anyone to believe that you are an unbiased IRRA^® BoD member?

Doesn't matter if Mike is biased or unbiased... The fact is that his customers have defective Retro Hawk motors and Mike is looking to come up with a way to satisfy his customer. If not, it's lost customers and money for his business.. Rule #1... Make the customer happy.

[JK Products]

I notice you keep avoiding my question, for weeks and right now, Mike.

 

What exact problem have you directly observed that makes you call our motors "defective"? Not secondhand or third hand, not repeating other people's opinions, your firsthand observations and experience.

 

To all other racers, we are continuing our significant effort to improve our motors and have armatures coming back from Paul Pfeiffer right now. We hope to be able to share significant new information in coming days. We are not saying there are no issues with our motors, but we are working hard to identify any issues and make them better. 

 

Tim

[Bryan Warmack]

Mike,
     
The SCRRA has been looking for a while now to get their hands on a couple of these questionable motors for testing and have offered several racers to buy them and pay for all shipping but to no avail.

I'll PM you. 

[wbugenis]

Tim,
 
Bye, bye.

 
Kulich would never let it come to this.

[CoastalAngler1]

Well Mr. Swiss, I'm still learning. I know you know how to test slots, but why test a car that had a Frankenstein motor comparing it to a standard one? I have motors now from most all batches, except the short shaft. I am that guy who has had motor rules change and need to spend some money to race. If I see a surge dud this weekend at GRRR, Tony can confirm for you. 

 

It didn't take me this long to find a 2-speed, I called them surge duds a long time ago. It seems they are much more frequent now and I am glad I don't have that particular batch in numbers.  

 

These HR motors are not as bad as everyone thinks. Batch to batch there are differences, however there are bullets in each. I know how to test now, just wish I were faster like those henchmen.