Jump to content




Photo

Commercial tire grinding set-up


29 replies to this topic

#1 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,395 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 22 January 2018 - 10:23 PM

What does a commercial tire grinding setup look like?
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

David Parrotta




#2 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,599 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 22 January 2018 - 10:46 PM

It could be anything from a manual machine to a complete CNC grinding machine.

 

Simplicity is best and unless you're knocking out 10,000 pair/year (that's not that many, really. 800 pair/month) you need to keep it simple.

 

Just for everyone's info: you're not going to be making any volume of tires when a Hrudy truer. That's not what that machine was designed or built for.

 

And to stop the insistant question asked of me/Sonic, NO I/we do not build tire truers for sale.


  • Rob Voska likes this
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#3 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,395 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 23 January 2018 - 09:42 AM

Phil,

I agree a HUDY or any small form factor grinder is far.. very far from ideal.

Im considering the use of either a 6",1/4 hp 3400 rpm (5340 feet a min), or 8", 1/2hp 3,600rpm (7500 feet per min) bench grinder(s) or a 1x30", 1/3hp (3620 feet per min) bench top belt sander to drive the abrasive.

The 3 options have dramatically different abrasive speeds. I have no experence in this area. Any input?
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

David Parrotta

#4 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,591 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 January 2018 - 10:14 AM

I doubt a belt sander would get you any precision.

Maybe just to quickly rough it out.

I've been talking to one of my guys on offering a commercial grade unit, to sell, and we agree, the key is to have a profiled grinding wheel.
  • Tim Neja, chaparrAL and elvis44102 like this

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#5 Ramcatlarry

Ramcatlarry

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,035 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Charles, IL 60174

Posted 23 January 2018 - 10:36 AM

A belt sander will not give consistent diameter without many adjustments and oops tires (errors) to be right.   The profiled stone with edge radii built in is the way Booth (1990s), Parma and JK have made tires for years.  The larger the stone diameter, the slower the motor can be since the EDGE speed is the goal.  We TOAA members toured the Parma factory in 2000 or 2001 and got to see their large wheel setup - very custom.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... (for now)
race directing around Chicago-land

USRA 2017 member #404
USSCA  member

Host 2006 ISRA/USA
Great Lakes Slot Car Club member
60+ year pin Racing rail/slot cars in America


#6 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,599 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 23 January 2018 - 11:19 AM

Phil,

I agree a HUDY or any small form factor grinder is far.. very far from ideal.

Im considering the use of either a 6",1/4 hp 3400 rpm (5340 feet a min), or 8", 1/2hp 3,600rpm (7500 feet per min) bench grinder(s) or a 1x30", 1/3hp (3620 feet per min) bench top belt sander to drive the abrasive.

The 3 options have dramatically different abrasive speeds. I have no experence in this area. Any input?

 

 

The bigger the wheel the bigger the motor needed to drive it. I wouldn't get any motor for the wheel less than 1/2hp, 1hp preferred, 3/4hp a nice compromise. This is for a 6 or 7 inch wheel. A 8" wheel will most definity require a 3/4hp. Assuming you're going to be using 1phase 110v, you don't want the motor bogging down and tripping the motor starting circuit while grinding. Not good.

 

Make sure to match the wheel speed and motor speed.

 

You are going to need wheel adapters. The best wheels will have a 1 1/4" bore on them. If you're planning on using the wheels used with bench grinders you're going to be unhappy. They are too "hard" and tend to be too fine of a grit. I believe McMaster-Carr has adapters for this application.

 

Make sure you have a proper wheel guard. You *will* be very impressed if the wheel lets go. I saw it happen years ago (not at Sonic) and it was like a grenade going off...


  • Ramcatlarry likes this
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#7 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,800 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 23 January 2018 - 11:25 AM

We have a set up for rough grinding urethane coated rollers with one of these.  Admittedly a little extreme for slot car tires, but I thought some might find it interesting.  You definitely do NOT want to touch one of these when it's spinning!!

 

https://www.oliverco...nding/coatings/


"Whatever..."

#8 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,395 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 23 January 2018 - 11:28 AM

I received several quotes from Asian based tool makers for a diamond grinding wheel with tapered edges. I got the price I wanted but minimum order quantities are very large.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

David Parrotta

#9 Danny Zona

Danny Zona

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,130 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Holly Hill (DaytonaBch), FL

Posted 23 January 2018 - 12:56 PM

I doubt a belt sander would get you any precision.

Maybe just to quickly rough it out.

I've been talking to one of my guys on offering a commercial grade unit, to sell, and we agree, the key is to have a profiled grinding wheel.

I'll want one. 💯
Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Luck is the residue of design.

Be a fountain not a drain.

It's not about being right, it's getting it right.

#10 Half Fast

Half Fast

    Keeper Of Odd Knowledge

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,923 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NYC, Long Island

Posted 23 January 2018 - 01:26 PM

Wouldn't you need a different profiled grinding wheel for each tire width to be produced.
 
Cheers.

  • Ramcatlarry and elvis44102 like this

Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now

 

 


#11 Dave Crevie

Dave Crevie

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,019 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 09

Posted 23 January 2018 - 02:02 PM

To grind tires, with the side radii included, using an abrasive wheel you need at least a 1" wide wheel. These are hard to come by in 6" or smaller

diameters. Jerry (JK) had a custom machine made, and used carbide chip infused wheels for creating the profile. I dressed some aluminum

oxide wheels for him, but they created too much smoke during the grinding operation, even in the coarsest grades. The carbide wheel is the

way to go, because it cuts more than wears the rubber away. And the wheel has cut many, many millions of tires. Personally, I don't see any

sense in setting up the kind of machine you need to cut wheels in bulk. Let the guys that have been doing it for a lifetime handle it. 

 

And yes, you need a different profile wheel for each width you are going to cut.


  • Rob Voska and elvis44102 like this

#12 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,395 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 23 January 2018 - 04:02 PM

Would silicone carbide wheel work in place of a carbide chip infused grinding wheel?

Let's say it only needs to survive grinding 1000 pair.

Consider I'm using an 8" wheel, would 1500 rpm be preferred over 3600 rpm?
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

David Parrotta

#13 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,591 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 January 2018 - 04:34 PM

And yes, you need a different profile wheel for each width you are going to cut.

Not if your grinder has some sort of cross slide.

 

Then you obviously just need a wheel, the widest width.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#14 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,395 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 23 January 2018 - 04:38 PM

Mike,

Do you have any photos of production machines you can share?
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

David Parrotta

#15 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,591 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 January 2018 - 04:38 PM

No.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#16 elvis44102

elvis44102

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OH

Posted 23 January 2018 - 08:42 PM

Back in the 80's i worked with Jan Limpach and helped make the Fresh Cuts..the machine was hand built and consisted of two motors fairly large one motor had a spindle to allow putting on the uncut tire/wheel assembly...

 

The other motor had a large orange fine grained grinding wheel with the profile (rounded edges and all) cut into the wheel..its been a long time so about all i can recall

is the wheel was maybe 10-12 inches around (big) the motors were fairly big as in 10lbs or so maybe 10inch OD..

 

Everything was extremely solid and well built allowing no extra play to introduce error...we made about 50 pair an hour or so im sure Jan was faster

 

It was ALL built within the framework of an old stereo or TV cabinet made from furniture grade wood   The tire to be cut was stationary (except rotating of course) and the grinding wheel mover into the slotcar tire/wheel


John Wisneski

#17 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,599 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 23 January 2018 - 09:01 PM

Back in the 80's i worked with Jan Limpach and helped make the Fresh Cuts..the machine was hand built and consisted of two motors fairly large one motor had a spindle to allow putting on the uncut tire/wheel assembly...

 

The other motor had a large orange fine grained grinding wheel with the profile (rounded edges and all) cut into the wheel..its been a long time so about all i can recall

is the wheel was maybe 10-12 inches around (big) the motors were fairly big as in 10lbs or so maybe 10inch OD..

 

Everything was extremely solid and well built allowing no extra play to introduce error...we made about 50 pair an hour or so im sure Jan was faster

 

It was ALL built within the framework of an old stereo or TV cabinet made from furniture grade wood   The tire to be cut was stationary (except rotating of course) and the grinding wheel mover into the slotcar tire/wheel

 

Back in the SBR days (ancient history) we could cut 125 pair/hour if we really we "in the groove" with our homemade machine. Wonder rubber and the newer materials, not so fast.

 

Power = Production


Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#18 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,599 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 23 January 2018 - 09:13 PM

Would silicone carbide wheel work in place of a carbide chip infused grinding wheel?

Let's say it only needs to survive grinding 1000 pair.

Consider I'm using an 8" wheel, would 1500 rpm be preferred over 3600 rpm?

 

Use the biggest wheel you can afford (this also affects the motor size and other machine characteristics which will influence cost and size ) and run it near the RPM the wheel is rated for (but not over that speed). Running the wheel slower is not a thing you should design to do; grinding wheels are most efficient at high speeds.

 

1000 pair isn't that many tires for production. You could buy the wheel you need and have a machine together in a weekend with as little as a drill press. There are tire makers who knock out 1000 pair/week (not naming names....)


Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#19 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,873 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 24 January 2018 - 08:59 AM

 

Wouldn't you need a different profiled grinding wheel for each tire width to be produced.
 
Cheers.

 

 

Of course not, as long as the side radius stays the same regardless of diameter and width...but I saw that Mike also handled that.  IOW, with the grinding wheel being able to move laterally (*with either manual "stops" to limit travel of some kind of CNC setup), you can grind any size tire you want as long as the grinding wheel is as wide or wider than the widest tire you might need to handle.


John Havlicek

#20 Dave Crevie

Dave Crevie

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,019 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 09

Posted 24 January 2018 - 02:50 PM

Building a machine with a cross slide good enough to consistently cut the tires is complicated and can be expensive. I

suggest designing the unit to plunge grind the tires. Much faster to grind them this way as well. 


  • tonyp and Rob Voska like this

#21 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,591 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 January 2018 - 03:11 PM

Building a machine with a cross slide good enough to consistently cut the tires is complicated and can be expensive

Only as complicated and expensive as buying a used surface grinder, a machine shop wants to get rid of, and calling a moving company. LOL


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#22 wbugenis

wbugenis

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 285 posts
  • Joined: 17-December 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brooklyn, NY

Posted 24 January 2018 - 03:21 PM

I moved RJR's  entire shop without calling a moving company.

 

Here's how:

 


  • havlicek, Jason Holmes, Rob Voska and 2 others like this
William Bugenis

#23 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,599 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 25 January 2018 - 11:35 AM

Only as complicated and expensive as buying a used surface grinder, a machine shop wants to get rid of, and calling a moving company. LOL

 

That's one way of making one but I'm guessing many don't have the room for a surface grinder nor want to have to move a heavy bulky machine around. Plus most homeowners would have to get a phase converter or a VFD to run, almost 100% gauranteed, a 3-phase motor on household power.


Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#24 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,395 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:29 PM

I've been running this for a month or so. Not a finished product but works great as is. Build cost was very reasonable.

Turns donuts to dust in seconds. No smoke due to 8" metal abrasive wheel and tire run at low rpm. Tire temp increase during aggressive cutting is under 10 degrees.

I use this machine to do an initial cut to size before tires see my Hudy.

 

g1.jpg

 

g2.jpg


  • Cheater, JimF, Dallas Racer and 3 others like this
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

David Parrotta

#25 Rob Voska

Rob Voska

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 585 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 08

Posted 16 May 2018 - 06:08 AM

Love the connecting rods, wrist pins, bearings, and pistons!


  • chaparrAL likes this





Electric Dreams Online Shop