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Alternative IRRAź motor submissions


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#1 Steve Deiters

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:40 PM

NSR EVO Motor-1.25.18.jpg
 
Too bad looking for a viable alternative doesn't include this potential candidate. Another Ohio racer and I bought a couple and ran some tests on it and related motors. 
 
All I can say is it was very impressive. Fast with tons of brakes. A purpose-built motor for slot racing be used in a commercial series setting who would have thought it.
 
NSR 3030 King Evo balanced motor
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#2 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:43 PM

How long is it? A big thing for any motor at this point is fitting into current cars.
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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:48 PM

Too big.


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#4 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:51 PM

Steve,

I believe it is too long to be used with the angled brackets.

Mike McMasters
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#5 Steve Deiters

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:03 PM

It is longer than the motors we are familiar with. Just making an out of the box observation, not a suggestion, but then in slot racing it's always something, isn't it?

#6 MSwiss

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:07 PM

Steve,

I'm guessing there are at least 300 Bartos chassis, alone, out there, with my angled bracket.

When you add the other chassis makers who use mine, along with all the R-Geos, and Dom Luongo's, it's just not practical.


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Mike Swiss
 
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#7 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:27 PM

This group of slot car motors are the FK-180 family - 180mm instead of 130mm long. 

Yes, they do fit in many open center frames that have a level motor or undershot gear alignment. Length in not a dimension I have seen specified - either stack or can length. A longer stack with the right wind might improve braking.  
 
Not soldering the lead wires on the FK design brush tabs would help as well.
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#8 Samiam

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 07:03 PM

Length in not a dimension I have seen specified - either stack or can length.


In the IRRA® motor rules the stack length of the JKHR is listed as .390" . The TSR and F7 are listed as .375".


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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 07:30 PM

.390" and .375".


Mike Swiss
 
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#10 Samiam

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 07:48 PM

Post corrected. :dash2:  

 

Thank you. 


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#11 Steve Deiters

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 08:15 PM

Interesting comments. Pretty much along the lines I thought they would be...

#12 Gary Adams

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:05 PM

NIH syndrome...
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#13 MSwiss

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:19 PM

Gary, Steve,

How do propose fixing the problem of obsoleting a couple thousand chassis with angled brackets or bite bars close to the front of the legal length motors?

Mike Swiss
 
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#14 Shooter7mustang

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:25 PM

Maybe "too long" has a different meaning to them.

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#15 Mike Patterson

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:58 PM

How do propose fixing the problem of obsoleting a couple thousand chassis with angled brackets or bite bars close to the front of the legal length motors?


You buy/build new chassis.
 
Jeez, do I have to point everything out?


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#16 NJ Racer

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:10 PM

Has this motor been submitted yet? I believe Andrew distributes them as well.

 

H_R Racing Crusher 50K.jpg


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#17 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:12 PM

I think the manufacturer has to submit the motor.


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#18 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:46 PM

H&R is as much a 'manufacturer' as JK, TSR, or PM. They may all come from the same assembly line, just different contracts. Wonder which direction the brushes are on the others?

 

I think it might work to get a .440" stack arm (Grp15/Contender) into a FK180 and longer magnets.  

 

We have 'developed' the frames to work with the short motors. The first kits and cars I ever saw would use a center weight to fill the void to the front of the motor. Can always rebuild the center rails at a minimum.


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#19 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 11:21 PM

NIH syndrome...

 

No NIH here.

 

Since I sell them I have tried them. With the longer overall length of the motor and an angled motor bracket the front of the motor hits the track. Just like you couldn't put a HR in a chassis designed for a PD with most of the angled brackets we used then.


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#20 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 06:34 AM

Steve,

I believe it is too long to be used with the angled brackets.

Since I haven't been racing Retro this is the first I've heard of an angled bracket. And since I've never seen one I'm not sure what the advantage would be to using one with the way I read the chassis rule. It's suppose to be a straight plane from bracket to front of chassis. Isn't this dropping the end of the motor below the straight plane?

 

3j. The bottom surface of the whole chassis (including the motor, but excluding the motor seal and guide flag) must be flat and straight in all directions, with no bowing or drooping of any parts below the plane defined by the front and rear clearance specifications. This will be checked by applying a straight edge to the underside of the car both across the frame and along the length of the frame. 

 

There is also a little sketch in the rule book showing this but it wouldn't copy and paste.

 

What am I missing here?


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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 06:41 AM

The advantage is you get a better gear mesh.

 

The motor shaft is aligned with the axle shaft.

 

IIRC, Mike Steube angled his motor up, using the WRP motor bracket, in his seminal chassis building video, he did with Keith Tanaka, in 2007


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#22 MSwiss

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 06:52 AM

PS-Bryan Warmack tested a high RPM, 1/32 motor, a few years ago at BP.

 

He said he has notes on it, that he'll check after the Checkpoint Cup, but it may of thrown a wire, but does know for sure it was nothing remarkable, as he didn't try a 2nd one.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#23 tonyp

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 07:36 AM

With mikes non hypoid bracket if you build the chassis with a jig motor the front edge of Motor will sit right at the bottom of chassis and the pinion side will slant up to meet bracket. As long as you use the same style jig Motor as you will be running in the car you will have no problems. Issues come when someone uses a Proslot with has the undercut in the endbell than they try to put an fk in the car.
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#24 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 07:39 AM

The advantage is you get a better gear mesh.

 

The motor shaft is aligned with the axle shaft.

 

So what you are saying is the motor bracket raises the bracket end of the motor above the .050" minimum height?


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#25 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 07:40 AM

With mikes non hypoid bracket if you build the chassis with a jig motor the front edge of Motor will sit right at the bottom of chassis and the pinion side will slant up to meet bracket. As long as you use the same style jig Motor as you will be running in the car you will have no problems. Issues come when someone uses a Proslot with has the undercut in the endbell than they try to put an fk in the car.

Thanks Tony, now I understand how it works. It does raise the bracket end of the motor up. 


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#26 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 07:41 AM

removed



#27 tonyp

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 07:42 AM

Pappy you got it.


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#28 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:20 AM

Tony, couldn't you accomplish the same thing with a straight inline bracket (non-hypoid) and then it wouldn't matter how long the motor was? 


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Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
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#29 MSwiss

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:43 AM

Butch,
That would work if you wanted to run .100"- 125" clearance in the rear, with legal size tires.

Or change the rules to allow much smaller tires.

Edit- unless you're talking about having the motor sit up level, but high above the chassis plane.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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#30 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:16 AM

I guess I need to see one of your brackets. I'm having a hard time envisioning the difference between angling the whole bracket or just angling the surface the motor fastens to. 


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE

#31 MSwiss

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:20 AM

http://slotblog.net/...-versa-bracket/

 

I lost a bunch of pics to the Photobucket BS, but post #37 should help you out.


Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#32 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:44 AM

Mike, I can see where it would be easier to solder a piece of piano wire to the bottom of your motor bracket but since most people bend the piano wire and also solder it to the axle tube and up the side of the bracket I don't think it makes much difference. Either way the end of the motor fastened to the motor bracket is going to be higher than .050" with legal size tires. The motor is already up in the air just sitting there.


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Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE

#33 Steve Deiters

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:02 AM

Interesting and valid observations expressing concerns if this motor could obsolete hundreds of chassis that are currently in use as well as impact the suitability of a motor bracket that is widely accepted and in wide use.  Modify existing chassis and build new ones may offer an option to this concern .  I thought scratch building chassis was what retro racing was all about?

 

If we viewed concern for obsolescence as a major determining factor for not looking a something different in a motor in the past I guess we would all still be driving inline chassis with Pittman 196B's in them. wouldn't we?

 

My reason for posting this motor was that perhaps the solution to ongoing issues considering a motor that appears to have been purposely built for slot racing rather than one that has been repurposed may offer an option.

 

Just thinking out loud...


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:33 AM

Why would you say it was purposly built for slot racing?

Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#35 Steve Deiters

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:47 AM

Mike Swiss.  Call it an assumption at this point.  On top of that I think it is safe to assume that  that the manufacturers of 1/32 materials (including motors) both in Europe and globally are dealing in much higher volumes  than we realize on the retro  scene or the commercial raceway market as while for that matter.



#36 Samiam

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:48 AM

If it doesn't fit......


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#37 tonyp

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 12:20 PM

Adapting a longer Motor will obsolete all current chassis. You have to remember most retro racers have cars for at least 4 classes and multiples for each class. That’s a hell of a lot of chassis to throw out. It would make more people quit retro than going to rebuildable or paper sealed open endbell motors.
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#38 JimF

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 12:36 PM

Re: The H&R motors................

 

During my search for a Mini Brute replacement, I tested both the 40K and 50K H&R offerings. The 50K one would certainly be a viable alternative to the RH as far as speed is concerned. However, my observations on all of the H&R motors was that they were much less consistent than the various JK offerings that were candidates at the time. I also found that the 50K motors (Crusher) ran scary hot. 

 

In some ways, we in NorCal are fortunate in that we don't have punchbowl tracks to deal with. We also run the slower Mini Brute in many of our classes. Thus, the motor speed is seldom the determining factor in race outcomes. Naturally, it matters in some cases, but just not nearly as much as it would if most of our races were run on Gerding Kings or the like. As a result, we don't have the need to buy dozens (or more) of motors. I do understand the issues involved for those who do have to go through this.


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#39 MSwiss

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 12:37 PM

Mike Swiss.  Call it an assumption at this point.  On top of that I think it is safe to assume that  that the manufacturers of 1/32 materials (including motors) both in Europe and globally are dealing in much higher volumes  than we realize on the retro  scene or the commercial raceway market as while for that matter.


It's just an FK180 motor.
 
What would they specify to make it special for slot racing?
 
They can specify the wind specs, but they can't say "It's for slot racing, so wind it, so they all run the same".
 
As far as your comment "I thought scratch building chassis was what retro racing was all about?"
 
If everyone was building their own chassis, Bud wouldn't be working on chassis #952, this coming Monday.
 
With your idea, I would sell a lot of brackets, and guys like Bud, Cap, Jersey John, etc. would make some money, retrofitting, but I personally think
it's too much hassle.
 
Sorry to take you to task on this, Steve.
 
But I'm one of the guys who would take the grief, if we approved a non-standard size motor.
 
PS-just saw the great, above posts, from Tony P and Jim F.

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#40 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 01:21 PM

"Purpose built":  Built to specific design specifications by contract. All of the current motors we use in all forms of slot racing are purpose built - except for the guys that specify to buy an electric toothbrush and salvage the motor for their classes. True pre-1965 slot racing was 'run what you brung' - and many of the motors used started out in other industries. The basic motors we use are from the Mabuchi catalog with specific design alterations. The contractor should be able to control what is produced within the manufacturers production limits and materials.
 
Endbell design and brush arms and orientation are the weak link of our current FK-130 motor. A different length can will not change that. I have seen a FC-130 homeset motor with an open endbell and 90-deg brushes like we are used to seeing in C & D cans. It is one alternative going towards a full endbell like the Hawk-6/PS4000 motors. The push start and small diameter commutator tells me the brush hood should change from horizontal to vertical as well.
 
Armature: If a design ohm reading for an armature is a goal, then the stack length and wind is relative. 16D performane is based on a .600" long stack and 70t #30 ga wire. Group 11 is a shorter stack at .440" and fewer turns. Our current HR is a Wasp/12 stack length with 65t of #30ga. The magnet mass affects overall performance and I feel we are happy with the lighter weight and profile of the "F" class (13D) size motors. A longer stack and magnet should improve braking and torque over current motors, but may further tax the brush system design.


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#41 Dave Crevie

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 02:07 PM

I have used the NSR motors, as well as all the others used in the 1/32 plastic slot cars, when I was racing those.

 

They have all the same issues the Falcon and Hawk motors have. You can put any kind of a sticker you want on the outside, but it is still just a cheap Chinese motor inside. 


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#42 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 02:13 PM

I liked what Steve had to say in post #33. In my heart I agree with him, but it's not going to happen, not in the world this hobby is in.

 

Now if someone said make these legal for RetroPro we might have more to talk about.


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#43 Shiggy

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 08:17 PM

I guess I need to see one of your brackets. I'm having a hard time envisioning the difference between angling the whole bracket or just angling the surface the motor fastens to.

 

Angling the whole bracket does not change the alignment of the armature shaft to the rear axle.


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#44 Dominator

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 08:44 AM

It actually does help with alignment. Pic is courtesy of Mike Swiss Chicago Land Bracket.

post-173-0-32145100-1375835602.jpg
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#45 Shiggy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 09:00 AM

It actually does help with alignment. Pic is courtesy of Mike Swiss Chicago Land Bracket.
attachicon.gifpost-173-0-32145100-1375835602.jpg

 

I think we are seeing "angling the whole bracket" differently. I read it as rotating the bracket, having the bottom not parallel to the setup block, which would angle the motor but not affect the gear mesh.


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#46 Pappy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:09 PM

The only difference I see with this bracket versus a standard non-hypoid bracket angled down is that the sides of this bracket rest flat on the set-up block and a standard bracket wouldn't. The gear end of the motor is going to be the same height off the track with either bracket. As you can see in the picture the end of the motor is already off the surface and will be even farther off the surface when the wheels are installed. 


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#47 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:40 PM

Look again. The gear end of the motor is elevated to align the shaft with the axle. The endbell end is flat with the bottom of the chassis. Since that makes the motor lie at an angle if the extend the length of the motor the endbell end will drop below the chassis and make it potentially drag the track.
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#48 MSwiss

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:42 PM

The point of this (extremely popular) style of bracket is the gear mesh is optimum because of the near perfect arm shaft/ axle alignment, and the handling is still good with the whole motor lower with the front of the motor, even with lowest point of the chassis plane.

Without the angled face, the whole motor sits up high in the chassis.

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#49 tonyp

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:43 PM

You have to make sure you use same motor as a jig motor that you are going to use.

Never use a Pro Slot for a jig motor if you plan on using an FK style or the endbell end will be below the chassis.
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#50 Pappy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 01:50 PM

Mike and Mike,

 

All you are doing with this bracket is raising the pinion end of the motor up so you can angle the other end of the motor down. You can get the same results with a standard (non-hypoid) bracket by raising the pinion end of the motor up and angling the bracket down. And as Tony said you have use the same motor in your jig as you are going to use in the chassis. The different length motors will dictate how much you angle the bracket.


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Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE





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