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Alternative IRRAŽ motor submissions


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#51 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:01 PM

You would first need to re-drill the bracket for the shaft bearing and mounting screws. Then the legs of the bracket would no longer be on the block. And of course that would mean you would need to modify the bearing holes to regain proper clearance with .812 tires. But the main point is a vast majority of existing chassis would need major reconstruction to make all this happen.


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#52 MSwiss

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:06 PM

Of course you can build new chassis, or reinstall the bracket.

But with an inline setup, there is multiple bracing , and not a 5 minute job, especially for the racer who already purchased a chassis from someone else.

This is not even addressing the chassis that have components, like bite bars, or shaker weights, directly in front of the motors.

Mike Swiss
 
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#53 Pappy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:30 PM

Butch,
That would work if you wanted to run .100"- 125" clearance in the rear, with legal size tires.

Or change the rules to allow much smaller tires.

Edit- unless you're talking about having the motor sit up level, but high above the chassis plane.

Mike, this is the statement I've been referring to. It doesn't matter if you use your bracket or a regular "non-hypoid bracket angled down the pinion end of the motor is still going to be the same height off the track. If the motor in your bracket is already raised by the bracket and you have to raise the bracket another .050" for clearance, what's the difference?

 

Mike M., you won't have to alter the holes in the bracket if you use a "non-hypoid" bracket.

 

I am not arguing the length of the motor, I'm only pointing out that Swiss' bracket mounts the motor at the pinion end as high as a "NON-HYPOID" bracket does.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
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#54 MSwiss

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:39 PM

But it angles down in the front for a lower CG/ better handling.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#55 Pappy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:46 PM

Forget it


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Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE

#56 MSwiss

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:49 PM

Mike, this is the statement I've been referring to. It doesn't matter if you use your bracket or a regular "non-hypoid bracket angled down the pinion end of the motor is still going to be the same height off the track. If the motor in your bracket is already raised by the bracket and you have to raise the bracket another .050" for clearance, what's the difference?
 
Mike M., you won't have to alter the holes in the bracket if you use a "non-hypoid" bracket.
 
I am not arguing the length of the motor, I'm only pointing out that Swiss' bracket mounts the motor at the pinion end as high as a "NON-HYPOID" bracket does.

Along with the front being much lower, the back of the motor, while not nearly as much, is also lower, as the whole motor pivots down.

To say it isn't would require a jog, or Z bend, in the motor itself. Lol

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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#57 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 04:06 PM

It is longer than the motors we are familiar with. Just making an out of the box observation, not a suggestion, but then in slot racing it's always something, isn't it?

The Hawk Retro was a motor hung down to low compared to the puppy dog. We managed to adapt to that didn't we. Don't limit motor selection now for the same reason, we will adapt!

 

GVP   



#58 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 04:09 PM

Steve,

I believe it is too long to be used with the angled brackets.

I am sure someone will come up with a new bracket to fit a longer motor. I know I will have no problem getting brackets for any motor no matter how long.

 

GVP.



#59 MSwiss

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 04:24 PM

The Hawk Retro was a motor hung down to low compared to the puppy dog. We managed to adapt to that didn't we. Don't limit motor selection now for the same reason, we will adapt!
 
GVP

The difference in motor lengths wasn't nearly as much, and if the chassis was built with an FK sized jig motor, to accomodate a handout FK motor, it wasn't an issue.

Bryan Warmack was sent a couple of these motors to try.

He was unimpressed with the performance, and recently checked them visually, and said one had a burnt coil, from testing it.

He also added they are WAY too long to be practical to adopt.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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#60 Steve Deiters

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 04:49 PM

If anyone is curious you can get some or one to test and draw your own conclusions.  They can be had at Professor Motor......NRS 3030 EVO Balanced Motor for $17.99.  They have 40 in stock.  I got mine from some other home set mail order place, but I don't recall the name. Easily found on the internet. 

 

Put it/them in a car and see what you find out.  If it doesn't ring your chimes...well then...you built a car that was fun to build and drive.  Isn't that what drew us to hobby in the first place?



#61 Shiggy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 11:22 PM

Along with the front being much lower, the back of the motor, while not nearly as much, is also lower, as the whole motor pivots down.
To say it isn't would require a jog, or Z bend, in the motor itself. Lol

Mike, I believe I understand how the hypoid differs from the non-hypoid.
Might a diagram of each (maybe overplayed) make it clear to those that do not grasp the concept?
D. "shiggy" Person

#62 MSwiss

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:25 AM

Maybe tomorrow, when I'm at the raceway and have some graph paper, available.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#63 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 07:17 AM

I like and use Mike's CL motor brackets.

 

That bracket is just a non hypoid bracket with the length and angle of the sides below the axle holes adjusted to create the motor tilting effect.

 

Mount any length motor you want in the bracket and give me a minute with a file. It will work.

 

The problem with the long motors is the number of cars we have built for shorter motors.

 

Are they any less prone to problems than the current motors?


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#64 Pappy

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 07:36 AM

That bracket is just a non hypoid bracket with the length and angle of the sides below the axle holes adjusted to create the motor tilting effect.

 

Mount any length motor you want in the bracket and give me a minute with a file. It will work.

 

Finally, somebody that gets it.


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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

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#65 Pappy

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:01 AM

Mike, let me ad that I think your bracket is a very good bracket and should eliminate the need for wheel blanks to set chassis height if they are designed right and make it easier to construct a chassis. They also give you more material to solder to over a standard non-hypoid bracket on an angle. But they don't lower the motor anymore than a non-hypoid bracket at an angle does.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE

#66 MSwiss

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:26 AM

I like and use Mike's CL motor brackets.
 
That bracket is just a non hypoid bracket with the length and angle of the sides below the axle holes adjusted to create the motor tilting effect.
 
Mount any length motor you want in the bracket and give me a minute with a file. It will work.
 
The problem with the long motors is the number of cars we have built for shorter motors.
 
Are they any less prone to problems than the current motors?

I'm glad you made Butch understand.

But while you could file the bracket holes to make the motor fit, it would no longer have the aligned gear mesh, unless you carefully change the angle of the whole mounting face.

Just making the holes higher will put the arm shaft above the axle C/L, in a reverse hypoid, non optimum, gear mesh.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#67 Pappy

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:46 AM

I'm glad you made Butch understand.

But while you could file the bracket holes to make the motor fit, it would no longer have the aligned gear mesh, unless you carefully change the angle of the whole mounting face.

Just making the holes higher will put the arm shaft above the axle C/L, in a reverse hypoid, non optimum, gear mesh.

You still don't get it.

 

You don't file the bracket holes, you file the bottom of the sides of the bracket to make it rotate enough to accept a longer motor. Geeeeeeeeesh!


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE

#68 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:47 AM

Mike I am not talking about moving any holes at all. I would file the bottom of the side below the holes moving the motor and the axle at the same time. then I need to use jig wheels and a Jig motor to get the clearance correct. The motor to axle relation would never change. depending on amount removed from the bottom of the bracket sides I may or may not need more bracing.

 

 The thing is your bracket works great with very little adjusting on the motors we use. This is all about we could build cars for the long motors, and everyone knows we could.

 

Do I want to use long motors? No 


Eddie Fleming

#69 old & gray

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 09:01 AM

 That bracket is just a non hypoid bracket with the length and angle of the sides below the axle holes adjusted to create the motor tilting effect.

 

Mount any length motor you want in the bracket and give me a minute with a file. It will work.

 

The problem with the long motors is the number of cars we have built for shorter motors.

 

But while you could file the bracket holes to make the motor fit, it would no longer have the aligned gear mesh, unless you carefully change the angle of the whole mounting face.

Just making the holes higher will put the arm shaft above the axle C/L, in a reverse hypoid, non optimum, gear mesh.

Just putting my finger in this fan ...

 

If 'I' were building a chassis with a C/L bracket and a longer motor, I would (looking from the left side of the car) rotate the motor clockwise around the rear axle to raise the front of the motor and file the rear corner of the bracket to obtain clearance under the rear of the bracket . 

 

 


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#70 MSwiss

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 09:12 AM

Huh?

I was talking about modifying the bracket without taking it out.

Doing a bracket transplant, with all the braces, is not an easy job.

When you factor in, most of your retro racers are not building their own chassis, it is not practical to switch to a way longer motor.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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#71 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 09:22 AM

"Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about."

 

I guess we all need to know and understand what we are all talking about.  :wacko2:

 

I finished replacing the motor bracket in a retro stock car last night, I do not want to do that very often.


Eddie Fleming

#72 Pappy

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 09:41 AM

Mike, I have been talking about "your" bracket since my post #20. Not motor length or modifying existing chassis. You're saying your bracket lowers the motor more than using a standard non-hypoid bracket and putting it on an angle, I say it's the same thing.
 
Your bracket would definitely be easier to do this and if designed right would also serve as jig wheels.
 
Eddie is right "I guess we all need to know and understand what we are all talking about.   :wacko2:"
 
But to get all the weight of the motor down as low as you can just use a hypoid bracket and take a pair of pliers and bend the motor shaft up till it lines up with the center line of the axle. Now your gears will mesh perfectly and all the weight will be down as low as you can get it.  :D
Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE

#73 MSwiss

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 09:53 AM

Mike, I have been talking about "your" bracket since my post #20. Not motor length or modifying existing chassis. You're saying your bracket lowers the motor more than using a standard non-hypoid bracket and putting it on an angle, I say it's the same thing.
 

I never said such a thing.(that it's lower)

I refer to my bracket as an angled bracket in post #6.

In your post #20 , you refer to the angled bracket as some new phenomena to you.

"I am not arguing the length of the motor, I'm only pointing out that Swiss' bracket mounts the motor at the pinion end as high as a "NON-HYPOID" bracket does."

I was answering the above passage, where you don't state "angling down".

Earlier in that post, you do seem to get it.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#74 Pappy

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:15 PM

Butch,
That would work if you wanted to run .100"- 125" clearance in the rear, with legal size tires.

 

Mike, right here is where you are saying that a standard non-hypoid bracket would raise the rear end more than your bracket.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

NF-UE

#75 MSwiss

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:38 PM

That's answering your statement;
"Tony, couldn't you accomplish the same thing with a straight inline bracket (non-hypoid) and then it wouldn't matter how long the motor was?"

You don't say anything about angling it.

Without specifying that, I assume you are talking about something like a JKD321 bracket, where the motor shaft is aligned, but the whole motor sits parallel to the ground, and above the bottom of the chassis.

My bracket is essentially a JKD321, angled, with the sides trimmed, to sit even with the bottom of the chassis, to give the longest surface possible, to solder your rails to.

I never purported it to me anything but that.

Of course, new chassis could be built for these long motors.

My point is guys with their $135 Bartos and Tony P chassis, aren't going to be real excited to send their chassis in, and pay for a major reworking.

An example of the impracticallity of it, looking at the F1 podium cars, from the Checkpoint, regardless of the style of bracket, none of the chassis will accomodate a longer motor.

They all have their rear body mount, across, and closely in front, of the motor.

Especially for a motor, a luminary like Bryan Warmack has already tested, declared meh, and pointed out it burnt a coil.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#76 Dave Crevie

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 02:01 PM

Guys, guys, guys. You are all debating an issue that will go away when all the testing, futsing and fanagling of the 

longer motors is done. Just as we idiot basement racers found out five years ago when the NSR stuff came out, The

NSR motors are no better, or no worse, than any other FK based motor out there. They all come from one of two 

major manufacturers. The quality is going to be an issue with all of them. The only real differences are the internal

specs, which are dictated by the IRRA. 


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