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Alternative IRRAź motor submissions


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#26 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 07:41 AM

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#27 tonyp

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 07:42 AM

Pappy you got it.


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#28 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:20 AM

Tony, couldn't you accomplish the same thing with a straight inline bracket (non-hypoid) and then it wouldn't matter how long the motor was? 


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#29 MSwiss

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:43 AM

Butch,
That would work if you wanted to run .100"- 125" clearance in the rear, with legal size tires.

Or change the rules to allow much smaller tires.

Edit- unless you're talking about having the motor sit up level, but high above the chassis plane.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#30 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:16 AM

I guess I need to see one of your brackets. I'm having a hard time envisioning the difference between angling the whole bracket or just angling the surface the motor fastens to. 


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
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#31 MSwiss

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:20 AM

http://slotblog.net/...-versa-bracket/

 

I lost a bunch of pics to the Photobucket BS, but post #37 should help you out.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#32 Pappy

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:44 AM

Mike, I can see where it would be easier to solder a piece of piano wire to the bottom of your motor bracket but since most people bend the piano wire and also solder it to the axle tube and up the side of the bracket I don't think it makes much difference. Either way the end of the motor fastened to the motor bracket is going to be higher than .050" with legal size tires. The motor is already up in the air just sitting there.


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#33 Steve Deiters

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:02 AM

Interesting and valid observations expressing concerns if this motor could obsolete hundreds of chassis that are currently in use as well as impact the suitability of a motor bracket that is widely accepted and in wide use.  Modify existing chassis and build new ones may offer an option to this concern .  I thought scratch building chassis was what retro racing was all about?

 

If we viewed concern for obsolescence as a major determining factor for not looking a something different in a motor in the past I guess we would all still be driving inline chassis with Pittman 196B's in them. wouldn't we?

 

My reason for posting this motor was that perhaps the solution to ongoing issues considering a motor that appears to have been purposely built for slot racing rather than one that has been repurposed may offer an option.

 

Just thinking out loud...


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:33 AM

Why would you say it was purposly built for slot racing?

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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#35 Steve Deiters

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:47 AM

Mike Swiss.  Call it an assumption at this point.  On top of that I think it is safe to assume that  that the manufacturers of 1/32 materials (including motors) both in Europe and globally are dealing in much higher volumes  than we realize on the retro  scene or the commercial raceway market as while for that matter.



#36 Samiam

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:48 AM

If it doesn't fit......


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#37 tonyp

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 12:20 PM

Adapting a longer Motor will obsolete all current chassis. You have to remember most retro racers have cars for at least 4 classes and multiples for each class. That’s a hell of a lot of chassis to throw out. It would make more people quit retro than going to rebuildable or paper sealed open endbell motors.
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#38 JimF

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 12:36 PM

Re: The H&R motors................

 

During my search for a Mini Brute replacement, I tested both the 40K and 50K H&R offerings. The 50K one would certainly be a viable alternative to the RH as far as speed is concerned. However, my observations on all of the H&R motors was that they were much less consistent than the various JK offerings that were candidates at the time. I also found that the 50K motors (Crusher) ran scary hot. 

 

In some ways, we in NorCal are fortunate in that we don't have punchbowl tracks to deal with. We also run the slower Mini Brute in many of our classes. Thus, the motor speed is seldom the determining factor in race outcomes. Naturally, it matters in some cases, but just not nearly as much as it would if most of our races were run on Gerding Kings or the like. As a result, we don't have the need to buy dozens (or more) of motors. I do understand the issues involved for those who do have to go through this.


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#39 MSwiss

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 12:37 PM

Mike Swiss.  Call it an assumption at this point.  On top of that I think it is safe to assume that  that the manufacturers of 1/32 materials (including motors) both in Europe and globally are dealing in much higher volumes  than we realize on the retro  scene or the commercial raceway market as while for that matter.


It's just an FK180 motor.
 
What would they specify to make it special for slot racing?
 
They can specify the wind specs, but they can't say "It's for slot racing, so wind it, so they all run the same".
 
As far as your comment "I thought scratch building chassis was what retro racing was all about?"
 
If everyone was building their own chassis, Bud wouldn't be working on chassis #952, this coming Monday.
 
With your idea, I would sell a lot of brackets, and guys like Bud, Cap, Jersey John, etc. would make some money, retrofitting, but I personally think
it's too much hassle.
 
Sorry to take you to task on this, Steve.
 
But I'm one of the guys who would take the grief, if we approved a non-standard size motor.
 
PS-just saw the great, above posts, from Tony P and Jim F.

Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#40 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 01:21 PM

"Purpose built":  Built to specific design specifications by contract. All of the current motors we use in all forms of slot racing are purpose built - except for the guys that specify to buy an electric toothbrush and salvage the motor for their classes. True pre-1965 slot racing was 'run what you brung' - and many of the motors used started out in other industries. The basic motors we use are from the Mabuchi catalog with specific design alterations. The contractor should be able to control what is produced within the manufacturers production limits and materials.
 
Endbell design and brush arms and orientation are the weak link of our current FK-130 motor. A different length can will not change that. I have seen a FC-130 homeset motor with an open endbell and 90-deg brushes like we are used to seeing in C & D cans. It is one alternative going towards a full endbell like the Hawk-6/PS4000 motors. The push start and small diameter commutator tells me the brush hood should change from horizontal to vertical as well.
 
Armature: If a design ohm reading for an armature is a goal, then the stack length and wind is relative. 16D performane is based on a .600" long stack and 70t #30 ga wire. Group 11 is a shorter stack at .440" and fewer turns. Our current HR is a Wasp/12 stack length with 65t of #30ga. The magnet mass affects overall performance and I feel we are happy with the lighter weight and profile of the "F" class (13D) size motors. A longer stack and magnet should improve braking and torque over current motors, but may further tax the brush system design.


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#41 Dave Crevie

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 02:07 PM

I have used the NSR motors, as well as all the others used in the 1/32 plastic slot cars, when I was racing those.

 

They have all the same issues the Falcon and Hawk motors have. You can put any kind of a sticker you want on the outside, but it is still just a cheap Chinese motor inside. 


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#42 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 02:13 PM

I liked what Steve had to say in post #33. In my heart I agree with him, but it's not going to happen, not in the world this hobby is in.

 

Now if someone said make these legal for RetroPro we might have more to talk about.


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#43 Shiggy

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 08:17 PM

I guess I need to see one of your brackets. I'm having a hard time envisioning the difference between angling the whole bracket or just angling the surface the motor fastens to.

 

Angling the whole bracket does not change the alignment of the armature shaft to the rear axle.


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#44 Dominator

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 08:44 AM

It actually does help with alignment. Pic is courtesy of Mike Swiss Chicago Land Bracket.

post-173-0-32145100-1375835602.jpg
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#45 Shiggy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 09:00 AM

It actually does help with alignment. Pic is courtesy of Mike Swiss Chicago Land Bracket.
attachicon.gifpost-173-0-32145100-1375835602.jpg

 

I think we are seeing "angling the whole bracket" differently. I read it as rotating the bracket, having the bottom not parallel to the setup block, which would angle the motor but not affect the gear mesh.


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#46 Pappy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:09 PM

The only difference I see with this bracket versus a standard non-hypoid bracket angled down is that the sides of this bracket rest flat on the set-up block and a standard bracket wouldn't. The gear end of the motor is going to be the same height off the track with either bracket. As you can see in the picture the end of the motor is already off the surface and will be even farther off the surface when the wheels are installed. 


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Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

 


#47 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:40 PM

Look again. The gear end of the motor is elevated to align the shaft with the axle. The endbell end is flat with the bottom of the chassis. Since that makes the motor lie at an angle if the extend the length of the motor the endbell end will drop below the chassis and make it potentially drag the track.
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#48 MSwiss

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:42 PM

The point of this (extremely popular) style of bracket is the gear mesh is optimum because of the near perfect arm shaft/ axle alignment, and the handling is still good with the whole motor lower with the front of the motor, even with lowest point of the chassis plane.

Without the angled face, the whole motor sits up high in the chassis.

Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#49 tonyp

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:43 PM

You have to make sure you use same motor as a jig motor that you are going to use.

Never use a Pro Slot for a jig motor if you plan on using an FK style or the endbell end will be below the chassis.
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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
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American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
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#50 Pappy

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 01:50 PM

Mike and Mike,

 

All you are doing with this bracket is raising the pinion end of the motor up so you can angle the other end of the motor down. You can get the same results with a standard (non-hypoid) bracket by raising the pinion end of the motor up and angling the bracket down. And as Tony said you have use the same motor in your jig as you are going to use in the chassis. The different length motors will dictate how much you angle the bracket.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
It's the same when you are stupid.

 






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