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Sandbagging, revisited


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#1 eshorer

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 02:34 PM

Yes, this has been discussed in the past, but it's been awhile and having witnessed this recently I thought I'd get people away from Retro Hawk Analysis 101 for a bit.

So... what are your thoughts on sandbagging for major races? A few people do it for various reasons: To get more time to break-in their motors and bring their tires smaller, to get more practice and racing for their money, to avoid turn marshaling, to feel good beating slower people, etc. On the other hand it can prevent properly seeded drivers the chance to move up, and doesn't give one the chance to see what their best qualifying time can be under the pressure of "all eyes watching." It's not illegal, but it just doesn't sit right with me. Especially when you see someone winning a race by 15 laps. Yes, it's a racing "strategy," I suppose, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it results in one's car getting destroyed among less experienced drivers in an H or G Main, ending an intended long run to the top. 

I'm not proposing we create a new unenforceable rule, but should there be a culture to dissuade racers from doing it? Thoughts?
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#2 Cap Henry

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:05 PM

Personally one-s self pride should be enough to prevent it.
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#3 Jason Holmes

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:32 PM

I'm with Cap on this. Most try their best. As far as policing it, no rule against so race on 

 

jason

 

Remember you might have this more at handout races or the perceived sandbagger because he has no motor like me and Craig's motors were Turds. Mill's was a rocket but his car at the time was on black ice when he qualified. Now the 1 in ?? see's no problem with it so I think we move on. Sometime the Windshield sometimes the Bug



#4 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:58 PM

Don't do moves up, do most laps. You will see no sandbagging.
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#5 Tex

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 04:02 PM

There's already a culture to dissuade such activity... we think such people are douches.


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#6 John Streisguth

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 04:08 PM

And I've had the opposite problem...car was a rocket on the track by itself, but when 7 other cars were on the track it slowed by almost 4 tenths.  Felt like I was driving on the freeway in a Yugo  LOL


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#7 eAddict

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 04:22 PM

One club I raced with had breakout times.  Wanna sandbag?  it will cost you a heat and set a new bar for you.  keep beating it and you keep losing scoring.  Have too much of a jump and you are disqualified.  Made for an interesting evening.  The guys in that club didn't feel the need to pull punches and thus everyone tried to do their best from the beginning of the evening.  There was more than a few seasons to tweak all the break-out rules but what they ended up works for them.


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#8 Tim Neja

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:02 PM

I had a situation where I qualified HORRIBLY for the coupe race---3rd from LAST in a 30 car field.  I had to work and only got to the track in time to qualify with NO practice laps!!  I had put a new motor in the car the night before--and it apparently had not broken in yet!  I was able to get the car going in the D main and made it all the way to the A!! It would appear I "sandbagged" but that was NOT my intent.  I just got lucky and the motor came in as I moved up.  You can tell by my lap times as the car got better every race!! But I'm not sure where I fall in the "sandbagging" discussion.  IF someone does this--he doesn't really take a spot from another racer, because he would have been in the main above them anyway?? And in doing this, the racer takes a MAJOR chance that he gets collected in a racing incident and his car gets broken.  I'm not sure I understand all the ramifications so this discussion will be good!


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#9 bbr

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:09 PM

I'm not in a flood zone, no need for sandbags
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#10 chaparrAL

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:28 PM

OK , what did Mark do now?

 

 

 

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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:46 PM

To get more time to break-in their motors and bring their tires smaller

The moveup cars should be teched for clearance and minimum tire diameter.

If they are not, then it is not a fair race.

The sit-outs and move-ups are running under 2 different sets of rules.
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#12 Samiam

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:00 PM

I think this is a discussion about something that only exists in the minds of people who don't like the practice. I honestly don't believe any racer with a decent car would risk the numerous pitfalls of running unnecessary heats to improve their final finish. The whole idea sounds like a myth. 

 

I sandbagged a qualifying session once because I had to leave. Got a sub for marshaling duty and bailed right after my main. I might have even made the move up. 


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#13 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:11 PM

It exists.

When I was running the regional Retro org, I saw a non-regular in the series, not qualify in both races, to start at the bottom.

In F1, he steamrolled the competition in the C and B Main, and finished 2nd to his teammate, in the A Main.

In Can Am, he steamrolled the field in the C, and then, in the B, he clobbered someone in the 90, where I was marshaling, and broke his guide shoe and didn't move up.

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#14 Samiam

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:31 PM

Well there 'ya go. His Can-Am race shows this is not a very safe practice to make good finishes. Sounds like the guy just wanted to get the most race time for his money. Cheaper than dropping quarters at the arcade room. 


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#15 Phil Hackett

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:39 PM

When I raced I was an extraordinarily mediocre qualifier but I raced much better than I qualified. Made many move-ups sometimes even to main events. I guess that "qualifies" me as a (former) sandbagger.

 

Seriously, people who sandbag are risking their race in that they could get their car destroyed before the 1st heat ended. Then what?

 

I once witnessed a big-time racer who raced in a local G27 class (long before this was a common thing) and someone pointed out that the only thing worse for this racer winning against the locals was that he'd get soundly beaten by the locals. You're only as good as the last race you ran.


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#16 Tim Neja

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 08:33 PM

Mike,  I did have to change tires as Bryan did tech my car again for the move up!! FWIW!  


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#17 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 08:48 PM

Tim, as you know, I was there for the Coupe race. You came in just in time to enter and qualify. You did NOT sandbag by any stretch.

I've raced with you enough to know you are NOT going to sandbag, ever. Your car was simply not good in qualifying, but, really got good going forward. You kept it in the slot and ran one heck of a race. Period.

This doesn't have anything to do with what Eddie posted about. I understand where Eddy is coming from.


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#18 Mike Patterson

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 09:26 PM

Rande Marshall (rest his soul) was notorious for doing this at ORS races. In qualifying, he'd take a bye, or no time. That way, he and Ron would be in different mains, and could pit each other's cars. Used to piss me off, because he usually ended up in the same race as me, and would proceed to bury the field.


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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 09:27 PM

Mike,  I did have to change tires as Bryan did tech my car again for the move up!! FWIW!  

I just commented, based on Eddie's comment, that sand bagging was sometimes used to accomplish that.

 

Congrats on your enduro-like run, and podium.


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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 10:29 PM

When I raced I was an extraordinarily mediocre qualifier but I raced much better than I qualified. Made many move-ups sometimes even to main events. I guess that "qualifies" me as a (former) sandbagger.

Silly comment, Phil.

 

This thread is about racers who purposely try to start at the bottom, but not making an 100% effort in qualifying, or no effort at all.


Mike Swiss
 
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