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#26 NJ Racer

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:11 PM

Mfg suggested retail was $7.00 according to the coding on the side of the box.

 

 

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#27 jimht

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:17 PM

My opinion: Kits aren't/shouldn't be aimed at adults.

 

You can go into umpteen reasons why, but essentially it comes down to: why bother, they're looking for either RTR or "I want to make it THIS way".

 

Kids have no preconceived notions, they're an easy sell.

 

Any instructions should follow the example of the Tamiya multipage booklets that helped create the Mini4wd boom.10179164z5.jpg

 

 


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#28 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:09 PM

Food for thought, The hobby of plastic and wood model building has been around forever and it still draws customers based off of the fact that 'some assembly is required' so the notion that everybody is lazy is a fallacy.

 

Why are bodies offered in clear and how many of you paint your own bodies ? I paint my own and I hate it but I do so because I'm not going to pay someone else to do it so its another marketing option I have and I like it.  Nothing wrong with assembling a kit ? Some dig it, some won't.

 

Bob K.



#29 slotcarone

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 05:21 PM

Mike,

 

You have made the same comment before and I showed you what I built so If you can't add any thing productive please don't comment. I'll can show you more if you want.

 

Bob K.

Maybe I misunderstood the gist of your sentence Bob but the first part could be taken as derogatory. Anyway unfortunately todays society wants instant gratification and does not want to put something together in order to enjoy it. The JK RTR cars are pretty good out of the package. :)


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#30 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 06:17 PM

Mike,

 

My comment was meant to be derogatory. You called me out before how I never built a retro car and I in fact showed you a retro car that I built so please drop your all mighty scratch builder nonsense.

 

Jim HT,

 

 Have to differ on the kit target, I would say adults buy the majority of plastic model kits so why would a slot car kit be different ? Sounds like a win-win for all ages.

 

Guess its time to put this one to rest because it seems like everybody around here has given up on mankind and views using your brains and your hands as just to much to ask of society.

 

You reap what you sow....Bob K.



#31 MSwiss

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 06:32 PM

Bob,

IMO, you posted a great topic here.

 

I would of loved to of posted, with my take, but  5 hours of party, and commentating approx. 125+, 5 laps races, got in the way.

 

Regardless, it's a shame you had start it off, on a bad foot, with your confrontational, repetitive;

"If pouring brass bits out of a bag and tacking them together is good for scratch building ..."

 

If "tacking them together" was all that had to be done, everyone would do it , and save themselves about $80 a chassis.

 

Instead, Bartos is working on about chassis #955, since he got involved in Retro.

 

Here's a JKD311 kit, Bud poured the brass bits out of the bag, and tacked together.

 

27356017_10208403564805645_8691142706075


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Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

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#32 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 07:45 PM

Mike,

 

Whats your point?  That's exactly what Bud did, he poured brass bits from a bag and tacked them together.

 

Got news for you, it doesn't take super natural powers to soldier some wire and brass together.

 

Did this quote ruffle your feathers also, "Very nice kit Dom, built one for a customer and it went from in the bag to in the tumbler in a hour !" Theres that 'bag' word in there that seems to trigger some of you.

 

Got anything constructive to add to the topic?

 

Bob K.



#33 Dominator

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:27 PM

Bob, the parts have to come in some kind of container. Some kits are easier to build than others. Knowing how to properly solder a chassis together v.s. simply soldering it together are two different things. I have had many discussions with racers of all levels at races about how and why I build the way I do.

3 weeks ago I spoke with a couple of racers as to why their chassis was good in right hand turns v.s. left hand turns. This racer checked tires, guide spacing, tire spacing, chassis flatness, etc... When this happens with retro chassis it's usually an indicator the rails need to be replaced as there is likely tension between the solder joints/rails. This was not something either of them had thought of to consider.

Another thing some builders need to be aware of is the straighteness of wire. Some wire is not flat or straight even when dealing with 3-6" long pieces. This is more typical when dealing with wire .055 and smaller. If the wire is not flat or is pushed down during soldering it will add tension to the chassis also.

My point is it still takes some know how to build whether it's a scratchbuilt, retro kit, or stamped steel chassis.


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:41 PM

Bob,
There is no less building in that example I showed of Bud's, as there was in some of those examples, you showed from that Michigan builder, a few months back, that you championed.

You just have a bad attitude about Retro kits because you disagree with the concept.

You even went as far as trying to start some sort of alternative Retro racing, that had the crickets chirping on OWH, when you presented it.

Again slot car kits was a great subject.

I'll comment after Super Bowl.

It's a shame you can't post without your "I don't like the direction Retro went" agenda.

It must kill you when you see 3 mains in the Retro classes, like they had at MMW, this past Saturday, at the Penn-Ohio race.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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#35 jimht

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:43 PM

Now, now Bob, don't quibble about "what's a kit or not?".

 

Most everyone that's been around awhile has done it both the easy way and the hard way...whether it's assembling chunks of K&S brass or slicing up trowels or using some of the nice parts available today.

 

It's hand assembly that takes serious skills to make a nice looking AND good working final product.

 

Both the pieces and the assembler can be judged on a sliding scale of ease and ability, but that's quibbling. Assembling a Retro chassis kit cannot be compared to a 2 or 3 piece Flexi.

 

My comment about adults buying kits is based on my considerable experience trying to sell this stuff.

 

Instant gratification is expensive but adults tend to afford what they want.

 

Kids and adults both should both buy kits, but I think the kit would be better for kids...the experience of assembling it would be more valuable to them.

Adults tend to use their greater buying power to get what they want immediately...which is to run their car on the track.


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#36 Samiam

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 09:43 PM

I have some nice chassis parts for scratch building. They are from Cobra, Ferret, Phaze-III, Dynamic, Parma and Champion. Drop arms, motor brackets, bat pans, nose pieces, guide tongues, and pre-cut axle tubes. 40-50 years old. All I have to do is add s-o-l-d-e-r.  


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#37 Half Fast

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:06 PM

Just pour them out and tack them together Sam, it takes no skill, or so we are told.

 

Cheers


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#38 Bill from NH

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:27 PM

Sam, you got the brass parts. If you have a chassis jig, let's see a chassis. :)


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#39 Samiam

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:43 PM

I'll be tacking together a "Vintage Style" stock car Bill. Parma Cyclone body. Mura 2-Hole Green can stuffed with a H-20 arm. Just need some fresh orange rubber to complete the "Kit". 


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#40 Bill from NH

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 11:12 PM

Any orange rubber I have is hard as a rock!   At one time, Alpha & Hershman both had orange donuts but I don't know if they still do. Maybe some of the L,I. locals will have some.


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#41 Phil Hackett

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 11:59 PM

When I want plants for my landscaping I buy them at the local nursery. Since I don't grow the things from seeds I guess I'm voting for the RTR... err,,, RTP....


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#42 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 07:58 AM

Sorry it took me so long to get back...I was at a birthday party.

 

Some of you seemed to have missed the part about constructive input to the original topic.

 

Mike,

 

I'm having a very hard time deciphering what you are talking about, you sound like nothing more then a raceway owner who had coffee dribbled on his track [Yeah Mike, I heard about that. ] :crazy:

 

With regards your continual attacks related to retro, I do not want anything to do with retro and I have nothing to do with retro, I along with many others quit retro a long time ago so stop bringing up all of your whimsical accusations and situations such as " I don't like the direction retro went" and even your "3 mains at Mark's in retro" comment. These comments along with your first off topic attack in post #31 were not warranted and offer no merit. News flash Mike, go back and read the original post and you will see that it has nothing to do with retro racing...period, so get over it.

 

As for a "alternative retro that had the crickets chirping on OWH",  I'm not really sure what your talking about and I doubt you do either but please explain to me if this is what your alluring to. I helped to organize some Thingie races and what is wrong with a guy putting out a idea and then helping at the races like I did with Thingies up in the northeast Ohio area. My work brought people to the tracks and may I add that the races were well attended and everyone had a blast. Perhaps this isn't what you are referring to but whatever I did it always had the best interest of the hobby and my local raceways in mind so if that offends you....oh well.

 

My opinion of what it takes to put a slot car together are my opinions plain and simple and they are every bit as valid as everyone else's on this forum so again, go back and read the topic of the original post and participate accordingly but please stop trying to spin everything that doesn't meet your approval into a retro pep rally.

 

Jim HT

 

My questions asked to you have been based on the 'lazy' comments some to have about kids and society as a whole. While I agree with some of it I also know that there is huge participation at NOPI type events by young guys and girls building some very detailed and complex autos so that tells me that the desire and the funds to assemble something is still prevalent.

 

Bob K.



#43 Bernard Powell

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:55 AM

When I first started reading this I thought it was a great subject on the viability of Kit assembly for new racer like it was back in the sixties!!
It is a very good subject, the problem is people haven't really changed, it is just the mindset!(think about it I'll wait). Like you say today everyone wants instant gratification! And that is a fact, but I believe if people would get together meaning track owners and manufacturers they could come up with something that would be appealing to many.
understand I'm not disagreeing with anyone in this, this is just my opinion and point of view.
Remember the old saying, A House Divided will fail!!

#44 MSwiss

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:59 AM

Bob,
You build your own track and witness how much damage a few dribbles of liquid can do, and the amount of time it takes to fix it, and let's see how you react when someone stands over your track, spilling coffee, and then when you point it out to him, he looks at you, and denies it's happening.

Yes, you don't Retro race anymore, but you still marginalize, the way some Retro chassis are built, years later, in almost every thread you start.

I'm thrilled you don't Retro race, anymore.

Rob V and yourself were such a miserable presence at R4/2, you made a great race, less great.

It was 60 racers having a good time.....and Rob and Bob.

You 2 spent the whole weekend complaining about anything and everything.

Paraphrasing, it was 8 years ago. "Noose won't pass my car in tech. It's close to being legal. What a bunch of BS".

I dreaded racing with you in the Can-Am final.

I wound up being pleasantly surprised, because for 24 minutes, you finally shut your mouth, and raced.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#45 Racer36

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:04 AM

Close to being legal......


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#46 Robert BG

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:08 AM

I think kids like kits to build and customize things and parents like them because they build confidence.Now the idea I've always had rolling around was for a track to have a sample rtr in the case along with a build your own option.You could list the available upgrades or "hop up parts" in both kits and allow the customer the ability to buy as few or as many options to the kit as they like.Then you could offer a seminar/in store help like they do at home depot etc on assembly and tuning to both the rtr and self builder.Now the self build option customers could save some money buy buying upgrades right out of the box instead of buying stuff 3 times and in the end you'll have a happier race ready customer ;-)


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#47 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:13 AM

Mike,

 

That's it ? Out right lies. Pathetic just pathetic.

 

Bob K.



#48 Robert BG

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:22 AM

Why not.............................................Talk about the topic instead of total BS.Seriously we're adult men playing with toy cars,there is no need to act like children too.

No wonder this hobby is circling the drain.Seriously its almost to the point where we're going to have to tell the last one to leave not to forget and flush and turn off the lights.


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#49 MSwiss

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 12:07 PM

I think there is a small market for kits.

I get periodic requests for them.

"Is there something my son can build?"

They are not looking for a kit to save money.

They are looking for one, for the building experience.

I offer to disassemble the car, N/C, and give them back the parts, or point out they can always disassemble the car themselves, anytime, and reassemble it.

But when I point out everything has to be just right, or they'll blow off a $4 spur, in a few seconds, they decline to take me up on my offer.


To offer a kit these days, these is a few problems.

To come up with a detailed instruction sheet, doesn't make a lot of economic, sense with the tiny market for 1/24 commercial cars.

Legend has it there was 200 raceways in an hour radius of Downtown Chicago, back in the era when the Russkit kit, shown, was in it's heyday.

Quizzing people, my age, that come in, on where they raced as a kid, I have zero doubt in my mind, there was at least 100.

Now, if I am correct, there is 3.

Also, the style of car, in this day and age, doesn't lend itself, so much, to be sold as a kit.

A vacuformed body?

Unpinned, chances are a newbie will not pin it properly.

Not the end of the world, but probably something I'll have to fix for them.

Prepinned, clipping it on, meh/not much of a building experience.

Also, you have the lead wires soldered on both ends.

No way to do that ahead of time, and still feed them through the lead wire holder on the chassis.

You could go clipless, in front, and then you have a car that the braid falls out, frequently.

The ideal kit would have a snap together, hardbody, so there would be more parts to put together.

Then the issue would be the performance.

Kids, and adults, like their intoduction to slot racing, with easy to drive, GTP cars.

Moving beyond the performance issue, it's still a shame AMT chose a non-slot racer to design the cars they put on the market.

If they were halfway decent, they could of really helped.

But anybody that has ever put one on my tracks, is hugely disappointed, tries to run the car, for 4 or 5 laps, and gives up.

It's a shame it isn't 1967, and there is a market for anything slot car related.

If it was, you would have many cars, with personality.

You would have accurate Lightning McQueen cars, identified as such.

You would have every Fast & Furious car.

But even looking back at that era, cars like the Manta Ray, Stinger, Little Red Wagon, La Cucaracha, etc., were RTR's.

Maybe there were kits of some of the above, But I associate with them as RTR's.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#50 Foamy

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 12:42 PM

My opinion: Kits aren't/shouldn't be aimed at adults.

 

You can go into umpteen reasons why, but essentially it comes down to: why bother, they're looking for either RTR or "I want to make it THIS way".

 

Kids have no preconceived notions, they're an easy sell.

 

Any instructions should follow the example of the Tamiya multipage booklets that helped create the Mini4wd boom.10179164z5.jpg

The Super 2 shown here is the best sidewinder chassis. The much awaited FM-A STILL has the same gearbox problems as the AR/ARFM it replaces.

 

 

 

 

foamy-super-II.jpg


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