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Another brushless thread...


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#1 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:56 PM

Ok guys, dont beat me up too bad. I was a little apprehensive about posting this because a lot of people are anti brushless (for some reason?). So here goes. I just got into this hobby, Im very mechanically and electrically inclined so I decided on the second car Ive built, to try and make a Brushless setup work. Well I was not only successful, Ive impressed myself and quite a few others. I have so much to say that I really dont even know where to begin. First off Ill start off with what I used.

My track is 16v so I had to find a micro controller that will support that high of voltage. Well airplanes and quadcopter escs (electronic speed controller) fit the bill there. Theres an issue with that however. The way the throttle works is different than a land based so I had to add a micro sized device called a pistix. Then I used a micro sized wireless receiver. You do not use your controller anymore, however a decent wireless pistol controller can be had for around $40. I used a 4100kv castle brushless motor. 4100kv means that the motor runs 4100 rpm for every 1 volt input into it. So yes, Im turning 65k rpm (holy smokes!). But these motors will definitely handle that in short bursts. You can get lower Kv for road racing. However the problem with that is if you fly off the track then the esc has to reboot which takes about 2 seconds. 2 seconds off your lap time is probably a crap load of time. So unless you never fly off the track then this may not be for you.

I did mention my tracks power is 16v, yes it runs off track power, no batteries. You much use a jumper at the controller posts because that has to stay hot. Dangerous for other guys running after you if you forget to remove the jumper. I plan on making a tether to my belt loop for my jumper, I walk away the jumper comes with me. This setup is in its infancy so many things can be improved.

The pinions work right on this motor too btw.


WEIGHT: well its thought that a brushless would have to weigh much more. Well its true that it will weigh more but not a huge amount. I weighed two cars I have to compare. Please keep in mind I added double tubing and extra bracing to the Brushless cars chassis. So that accounts for a touch more chassis weight so it could take the power.

My gto non brushless weighs 32.6 grams
My camaro with brushless 49.6 grams. Both weights are no body. When I weighed this setup vs having a hellcat motor it was only 10g difference.


I was having trouble with getting that car to stop as I was trapping sometimes over 50mph in 27.5ft (1/8 mile) but after rerolling the glue out on the shutdown area it was stopping fine. It would stop half way before the end. I was using .500 wide tires and I ordered some .700 wide ones for more glue grab to stop it even when the glue is worn off the track. I didnt want that handicap of not remembering to fluff the glue then crashing my car. And yes Ive crashed it a bunch. I had to add some reinforcements to my body mounts and put some bump stops behind the front bumper. All is well now and it can take the crashes now (Dont ask how I know lol).

Now lets get to what I think the advantages and disadvantages are. Ill start with advantages.

The potential for much more power. You can turn the punch down and dial in the power however you like. Theres no comm to wear out. Theres no brushes to change or wear out. Theres no brush dust and mess. No comm cutting machine to buy. No brush alignment tool needed. The consistency is better. Less heat. The motors dont cost near as much especially considering the power output. Im sure theres more pros, and some of these pros may be cons to some of you guys because you may enjoy cutting the comma, tweaking brushes, playing with spring rates.....I get and respect that. I only bring this to the mix because why not have a choice? The bad thing is I feel that brushless will take over like it did in rc because Im just a back yard tinkerer. A esc/motor company could package this in a lighter more economical package.

Now for the cons:

It would be a new learning curve. That would scare many people, although theres really nothing to it, actually less complicated than a brushed motor. You no longer have an automatic drag brake at the end of a drag track because grounding the power does not create drag on the motor like a brushed motor. However, for track racing, you have a programmable drag brake. Weight. Yes, it does weigh a little motor. Wiring is more complicated. You now have three motor wires instead of two, going to the esc. Then just two power wires from the esc to the braids. It would cost more than a $15 cheapie motor. But thats not considering the cost of extra equipment for brushed motors if you do that sort of thing. You have to use a jumper that could cause damage to the next guys car if your not careful.

Basically what happens is you trade cost on one thing for cost on another. If I were to sit down and figure out the cost vs cost on things, if you were just starting out and wanted ultra power (like the speed demon I am) then a Brushless setup would like be cheaper believe it or not. Ive seen drag brushed motors sell for over $300, the Brushless motors are all about $50 and can have the same power. My setup ran a .565 in the 1/8 the other night on a $10 chassis kit car. Me not even knowing what Im doing. I had it turned down somewhat too. I know with more tire and gear and dialing in, the car will get into the .4s


Heres some pics for you guys.

CC1_AFF02-_B195-4589-8_B6_B-9_F712668_C2


340_F2398-264_B-4_C05-9665-_A88_A9_A701_


4_E1_F5_C7_A-9_F8_B-4802-87_FE-_FB4_B042


AED4_BF46-8_F0_E-41_B8-9_E47-_F3207_CD24


CB620_FBF-5_D6_F-4487-9_DBD-_C2998_FF234


9_FBE69_E1-_DFCA-4_C7_E-8_A87-3_C00_FDCB


F1_CFEBB0-_DE5_F-482_A-92_A9-86_F8_D13_B
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#2 Robert BG

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:23 PM

Nice work,I can see this doing well in drag racing but when I looked into it for road courses I just didnt think the tech was there yet.


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#3 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:59 PM

Nice work,I can see this doing well in drag racing but when I looked into it for road courses I just didnt think the tech was there yet.


I agree. I think maybe what Ive done can be improved upon. I have some ideas but then theres always cons to those ideas. But honestly theres cons to brushed also. Its just weve learned to deal with those cons. Namely is the initial cash outlay for a comm cutter and different size brush cutters. Some people do enjoy doing the custom motor work so its not a con to them. One of my ideas for track racing involves the track itself housing a speed controller to power the motor. The major issue with that is youd now have to have three braids on the track and three on the car. Doable. But at this point, may not be feasible. It would take too much money on a track owners end to equip their track like this but......it would be an even better and cheaper experience for the racer. How? Will youd buy a $15 program card or program cable, have a female plug in next to your controller and you program your esc to your settings. Pain in the butt you say? Not really because you can save your settings in your laptop program and just upload before you race. Really in track racing theres probably not much youd need to mess with as you could just have a generic setting and it would be fine. Also you can use a wired controller going into the speed controller. They make rheostat servo/esc testers that plug into the controller so making one work in a cheap slot car pistol housing would be super easy. This could all be done, but is it worth it? Maybe. Maybe not. It ultimately would cost the track operator more and the racer much less. If all we had to do was buy a $30-$50 motor that would be a substantial savings on our end but guide flags would have to be redesigned and so would braiding on track. But. I think my setup does work well for drag racing. My track does have a oval (not sure what youd call it, its really not just an oval) and I know the track owner would hand me a track car to experiment with. I have no doubt he will. If anyone is truly interested in me doing this, Id be glad to. I can post some video of it too. Not sure what I have would be as fast as some of the stuff Ive seen on YouTube, but I dont know if people really race cars that you really cant see because they are just that fast. If anyone has some video links to the type of racing that you do, please post a link. Id be interested in seeing what it looks like so I can know if Im even wasting my time in that area. Also if anyone could post some weighs of these cars that would be helpful. Do you guys ever purposely add any weight? If so, then this could be feasible but if your trying to go for as light as possible, maybe not.


Im having to conserve my posts (forum is giving me a message I only get so many) so heres a couple YouTube video links. This was the first night ever of me running this car. Its faster now but I didnt get any recent video of it.

https://youtu.be/mqaYMSaFeb8


https://youtu.be/-sSEXfVFeZw


And this video you can see the esc lit up in it (just for proof this is a Brushless car)


https://youtu.be/G1tAatfUuO0

TRAVIS THIBODEAUX


#4 MSwiss

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:24 PM

We race with great $15 motors.

They need replacement once in awhile, so what?

You are asking a raceway to spend a lot of money on a 3 braid track, pay the rent on the space for it, so he can sell less parts.

And what happens when an old timer comes in with his old 2 braid cars, and wants to run them?

And virtually none of my racers own comm cutters.
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#5 SlotStox#53

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:33 PM

Excellent work and ingenuity!!

About time for a brushless slot car and it works :D

I'm sure with some tweaking and much more testing a roundy roundy brushless will be possible..

Again, fantastic project and results, any chance of a wiring diagram/how to for the less knowledgeable peeps? :laugh2: :ph34r:
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#6 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:12 PM

We race with great $15 motors.
They need replacement once in awhile, so what?
You are asking a raceway to spend a lot of money on a 3 braid track, pay the rent on the space for it, so he can sell less parts.
And what happens when an old timer comes in with his old 2 braid cars, and wants to run them?
And virtually none of my racers own comm cutters.



Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I sense a tad bit of hostility in your post. I’m in no way pushing for tracks to change what they are doing. If you took it that way then apologies. I didn’t and Don’t intend on that. It was just some ideas that I threw out there only because this IS possible to do. That’s the only reason for my whole thread. To show that it is possible and feasible, more so in drag racing.

And yes if your running $15 club motors that need replacing every now and then...so what. This thread isn’t saying you need to or should do anything. I’ve read where people asked about it and then all kinds of people jumped in and got all upset at the idea and said it’s not worth it, can’t be done, there’s no point etc. Well I’m putting it out there that just because YOU (and not saying anyone in particular but if the shoe fits....) haven’t done it does not mean you can’t. I just wanted to show the guys who are asking and interested that yes it is possible.
That’s all. Not trying to start a debate. Argument. Fight. Whatever. Not trying to put the track owner by any means. Just showing that it can work and works better than I expected. Had this stuff laying around not being used so I said what the heck. Let’s try it.
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#7 Samiam

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:12 PM

For drags this could be doable. Might be an issue if local rules have controller restrictions. But for road course the 2 sec reboot is a deal breaker. 

 

Any future brushless development will have to work within the confines of the current track design though. Even if it is a separate class. 


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#8 SlotStox#53

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:42 PM

Brushless slot car "check"

wireless slot car system/controllers that can handle hot amp sucking Group 20s and above + rewinds? **still waiting**

Can just imagine lane changing, best racing line for banked corners, nose to tail with 1969 pro anglewinder Stock cars :heart:

#9 Samiam

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:57 PM

Does anyone know what kind of motors and speed controls are in these things?

https://www.amazon.c...5&pd_rd_w=YAePF


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#10 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:15 PM

For drags this could be doable. Might be an issue if local rules have controller restrictions. But for road course the 2 sec reboot is a deal breaker. 
 
Any future brushless development will have to work within the confines of the current track design though. Even if it is a separate class.


Yes the only way to get around that is either an esc designed for instant on (I haven’t seen one yet) or the track owner to take the hit and redesign the track to suit. So really isn’t feasible to be honest. This really would be best for drag racing. I do think I can get more out of this setup and would be a good fast grudge car.

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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:49 PM

Travis,

Did you edit your post #3 at all?

 

Rereading it, it seems to have a different tone, then to the post I responded to.

 

But we are in the middle of racing, so I'm a bit distracted, and may of read it wrong.

 

Regardless, you post statements like the below;

The bad thing is I feel that brushless will take over like it did in rc because Im just a back yard tinkerer. A esc/motor company could package this in a lighter more economical package.

 

And then you argue with the feasibility, but you don't expect others to?

 

That's not how it works on Slotblog.

 

It's not stream of consciousness posts, with no rebuttal allowed.

 

I replied, because you don't seem to have a full grasp of how slot racing works these days.

 

You post "No comm cutting machine to buy.", like it is a requirement, to slot race.

 

I would estimate 1-3% of your commercial slot racers, own "comm cutting machines".


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IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#12 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 06:19 PM

Travis,
Did you edit your post #3 at all?
 
Rereading it, it seems to have a different tone, then to the post I responded to.
 
But we are in the middle of racing, so I'm a bit distracted, and may of read it wrong.
 
Regardless, you post statements like the below;
The bad thing is I feel that brushless will take over like it did in rc because Im just a back yard tinkerer. A esc/motor company could package this in a lighter more economical package.
 
And then you argue with the feasibility, but you don't expect others to?
 
That's not how it works on Slotblog.
 
It's not stream of consciousness posts, with no rebuttal allowed.
 
I replied, because you don't seem to have a full grasp of how slot racing works these days.
 
You post "No comm cutting machine to buy.", like it is a requirement, to slot race.
 
I would estimate 1-3% of your commercial slot racers, own "comm cutting machines".



I did edit that post but it was only to add the YouTube links. I don’t remember changing any of the wording. I think that sentence you placed in bold was sort taken the wrong way or maybe I worded it wrong. Apologies. I did type a whole bunch and I was in the middle of building a transmission (I build automatic transmissions for gm guys that drag race). So maybe my attention wasn’t fully focused. I guess what I meant to say is Brushless could possibly take over (one day) and that would be a bad thing for a lot of people. I’m just a backyard tinkerer and I couldn’t make that happen. Maybe if it caught on by some big company maybe? But not from this guy. So please don’t feel threatened or insulted by any of this. That’s definitely not my intent. Like said above, I just wanted to show it can be done. All the threads I’ve read on it, there would be a guy asking and then him getting the internet beat down because of it. I just wanted to let them know there’s someone out there doing it.


I wasn’t aware of how many people do and do not have comm machines. I assumed that lots of people did, only from what I’ve read on furyms and videos I’ve watched. My fault for assuming that. And yes your right, I do not have a full grasp of how slot car racing works. I have yet to participate in a Friday night race. I’ve been there at the track for the past few weekends because I just go into this maybe 3-4 weeks ago. I’ve got lots to learn for sure. Honestly, I’m more interested in building and letting my two sons race them. The Brushless car was built because I just wanted to see if I could do it and I like to be the oddball.
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#13 Samiam

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 06:46 PM

Just a bit of history from OWH....

 

"If you see brushless in slotcar racing, methinks it will be on a dragstrip."

 

Monty@B.O.W. 7-10-2011


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#14 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:21 PM

Just a bit of history from OWH....
 
"If you see brushless in slotcar racing, methinks it will be on a dragstrip."
 
Monty@B.O.W. 7-10-2011



I don’t disagree. It may or may not have its place one day. I’m currently setting up a car controller in one of my sons cars to see if a car controller will work better. Basically just having a little fun with it. That’s all. And maybe to see how far we can push it.

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#15 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:18 PM

Excellent work and ingenuity!!
About time for a brushless slot car and it works :D
I'm sure with some tweaking and much more testing a roundy roundy brushless will be possible..
Again, fantastic project and results, any chance of a wiring diagram/how to for the less knowledgeable peeps? :laugh2: :ph34r:



Sorry I didn’t mean to skip over your post. A wiring diagram is really not needed. The positive and negative are just soldered to you positive and negative braids and I shortened the receiver wire to eliminate mess. That wire just plugs into the receiver from the esc and that’s it. Of course you hook up the three wires on the motor and when you bench test it, if the wheels run in reverse, you swap just two of the wires on the motor. Easy Peezy

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#16 Dallas Racer

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:27 PM

I think that's a neat project. Impressive too. But I don't see a need for it.

 

But I don't know much about drag cars, so maybe there is. What kind of setup is needed to run a .5651 1/8 mile with a conventional car?


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#17 KFXGuy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:34 PM

I think that's a neat project. Impressive too. But I don't see a need for it.
 
But I don't know much about drag cars, so maybe there is. What kind of setup is needed to run a .5651 1/8 mile with a conventional car?


And your probably right. It can be done with a regular motor no doubt. I’m not sure what it would take to run that. I’m not real experienced and only having seen a handful of really fast cars (well only one that I recall....which was way faster. I think he was trapping around 90mph in 27ft) so I really don’t know. Watching cars run, the norm for a fast bracket car is around .740-.750. A pretty fast bracket car is under .700 in the .680 range. This is basically budget cars on cheaper chassis. Pretty much the same cheap chassis I’m running. I was watch some dragsters run and they were at .580ish. I have not seen a regular chassis car like mine in the .500’s yet. I’m definitely not saying they aren’t there by any means, I’m going to ask some of the guys about it next weekend. I did notice for the super fast cars they had to lay traction glue the whole length of the track. I’m only flying for 2-3 feet from the starting line. I’m trying to eliminate that so I ordered wider tires. At this point I’m probably needing a better chassis so I may end up upgrading. It’s just fun to see how far I can push it.

Btw, I’m under the understanding that a much more expensive motor that what we normally run would be needed to go faster. I don’t know much about the brushed motors so I can’t say which one I’d need but I’ve seen prices on drag motors past $300 and iirc the car that I saw trap 90mph had a $300 motor in it. Well it was said the car had about $700 in it. I’ll ask more but some info isn’t just given out, this guy holds the record at our track I think.

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#18 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:49 PM

Need a control interface to run 100 amps without melting.


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#19 Alchemist

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:10 AM

Hi Travis,

 

I brought up the question in regards to using brushless motors on slot cars a long time ago.

 

For me, I find it exciting to see that you got the brushless motor to work on a drag car.

 

I was hoping by now, someone could figure out how to get it to work on a track car.  (hint hint -LOL)

 

Thanks for sharing your craftsmanship.

 

I appreciate it.

 

Ernie


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#20 KFXGuy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:47 AM

Hi Travis,
 
I brought up the question in regards to using brushless motors on slot cars a long time ago.
 
For me, I find it exciting to see that you got the brushless motor to work on a drag car.
 
I was hoping by now, someone could figure out how to get it to work on a track car.  (hint hint -LOL)
 
Thanks for sharing your craftsmanship.
 
I appreciate it.
 
Ernie


I’ll ask the track owner if he will loan me a track car and see if I can put something together. I think it would be interesting. I’m really glad that at least a few people are showing interest. I thought I’d be getting the boot lol.

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#21 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:49 AM

A typical slotcar motor is soldered in. Brushless motor cans are typically aluminum.
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#22 Samiam

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:32 AM

There is no lack of production chassis with motor brackets out there. Inline and angle winders. 


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#23 havlicek

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:45 AM

Good stuff and an "A++" for creativity, and I say this coming from the standpoint that says "just because it isn't being done, doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried":D   On the other hand, both Tony P and Mike Swiss (*and maybe others) have given good reasons why this isn't a thing with slots, and they certainly know their stuff.  There's a fair amount of crossover between slot car and RC enthusiasts, and the idea has come up before.  Still, I like what you've done here.  


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#24 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:48 AM

Show me a top racer that screws their motor in without soldering.
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#25 Samiam

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:08 AM

Dave,

You are missing the entire point of this thread. But I'll say this then, Show me a top(road) racer even contemplating using a brushless motor. Besides, who's talking about(road) racing? Calm down. Nobody is taking your brushes away. Besides, if we didn't have brushes, we wouldn't have anything to flame on about, here and all over the Interweb. 

 

This is what is known as a "Proof of concept" . And from what I have found elsewhere on the WWW, this is not the first foray into brushless slot cars. However, everything I've seen is a drag car. Looks like Monty knew what he was talking about.


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