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Pro Slot Group 20 gearing


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#1 Slot-Racer

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:29 PM

Greetings,

 

I'm looking for advice on what is a fast setup without overdoing it. Not racing just running laps for fun.

 

Setup:

  • Wing chassis: Beuf /Camen Group 27 Arrow/Chicago Land chassis
  • Proslot Group 20 - 38 degrees timing motor
  • .760 -.790 diam tires
  • Bearing in chassis
  • Bearing in motor
  • Blue King track

What would be a nice fast setup? 9/38, 10/38, 9/39, or 10/39?

 

Thank you.


Mario Damis




#2 NY Nick

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:46 PM

11/ 39 was what used.


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Nick Cerulli

#3 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:15 PM

9:37 or 10:39
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#4 zipper

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:17 PM

And if it tends to overheat, 10/39 or 38.


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Pekka Sippola

#5 Slot-Racer

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:33 PM

Thank you all!  :D


Mario Damis

#6 Robert BG

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:56 PM

There's no point in buying a 27 chassis because a C can wont fit.Just grab a G-12 without the pans and set it up like a Hillbilly Box 12(bearings,no pans etc).If it's a older king go long on the chassis and look at this past Nats for ideas.If its a Gerding King then go shorter ;-)

As for the motor,plenty of good C-cans out there.I've built Red Fox,Cahoza's and Kofords all with good luck but I  prefer Cahoza as it is a lot easier to get top results without too much fiddling around.If on a budget go Koford as they are a bit cheaper.

 

As far as arms go,I've run a few 20's in my new C can setups and I havent been impressed.Honestly they ran hotter and were not faster by any means.I'd recommend just sticking with a G-12.At least then if you decide to race you can use it later on.Either way you go they pretty much use the same setup.Again outside of drag racing I feel the 20's run a bit hot for ceramic mags.

 

Gearing in 64 pitch I'd start out with 9-38 and as for tires the Koford spec wing tires are great for the money.Honestly it's not worth spending more till you're knocking on 2.1-2.0's


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Robert Fothergill

#7 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:04 PM

There's no point in buying a 27 chassis because a C can wont fit.Just grab a G-12 without the pans and set it up like a Hillbilly Box 12(bearings,no pans etc).If it's a older king go long on the chassis and look at this past Nats for ideas.If its a Gerding King then go shorter ;-)

As for the motor,plenty of good C-cans out there.I've built Red Fox,Cahoza's and Kofords all with good luck but I  prefer Cahoza as it is a lot easier to get top results without too much fiddling around.If on a budget go Koford as they are a bit cheaper.

 

As far as arms go,I've run a few 20's in my new C can setups and I havent been impressed.Honestly they ran hotter and were not faster by any means.I'd recommend just sticking with a G-12.At least then if you decide to race you can use it later on.Either way you go they pretty much use the same setup.Again outside of drag racing I feel the 20's run a bit hot for ceramic mags.

 

Gearing in 64 pitch I'd start out with 9-38 and as for tires the Koford spec wing tires are great for the money.Honestly it's not worth spending more till you're knocking on 2.1-2.0's

The, 

 

Chassis he mentioned using I believe is Mike Swiss FK wing car chassis, No problem using a C-Can in that chassis. 


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#8 Slot-Racer

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:07 PM

Yes. I can fit a C-Can in the Camen chassis no issue. I already bought it (long and short Arrow) cause both were $30.00 brand new so was hard to resist as it sells for waaay more. What I did have issues with is the Chicago Land chassis. The rear frame is further out than say a Beuf Koford chassis, but I got it to fit, was just more at an angle than others I have.


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#9 Robert BG

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:26 PM

Yes. I can fit a C-Can in the Camen chassis no issue. I already bought it (long and short Arrow) cause both were $30.00 brand new so was hard to resist as it sells for waaay more. What I did have issues with is the Chicago Land chassis. The rear frame is further out than say a Beuf Koford chassis, but I got it to fit, was just more at an angle than others I have.

I guess the Camen has a wider motor box,on my 27 Lites the bus bars usually hit the rails because the c can is longer.But some do have a wider box than others.

You might have to add a piano wire brace to make it work in the rear but that is no problem.


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Robert Fothergill

#10 Pablo

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:49 PM

I'm curious why you are putting a G20 motor in a G27 chassis?

 

But if that's what you really are determined to do, all the gearing advice given so far seems awfully tall to me.

With about .765 OD wheels, since you are not racing, no clearance rules, I'd use the biggest OD 64 pitch spur that gives .032 clearance.

Divide the teeth by 4 for pinion and use that as a starting point.

 

I can't say I have experience here because I've never heard of using a G20 in a G27 chassis.

My G20 experience is all in vintage builds.

 

If Swiss sold you the chassis, he is the best man to ask for advice.


Paul Wolcott

#11 Slot-Racer

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:03 PM

I'm curious why you are putting a G20 motor in a G27 chassis?

 

But if that's what you really are determined to do, all the gearing advice given so far seems awfully tall to me.

With about .765 OD wheels, since you are not racing, no clearance rules, I'd use the biggest OD 64 pitch spur that gives .032 clearance.

Divide the teeth by 4 for pinion and use that as a starting point.

 

I can't say I have experience here because I've never heard of using a G20 in a G27 chassis.

My G20 experience is all in vintage builds.

 

If Swiss sold you the chassis, he is the best man to ask for advice.

 

"I'm curious why you are putting a G20 motor in a G27 chassis?" = Because I can? :D  I'm not racing so for me any wing chassis that is light is good and fast to run.


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#12 MSwiss

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:04 PM

This thread is like the movie, Groundhog's Day. Lol.

I already gave him advice in another thread.

8-39 or 9-38 (so one can switch gears without unsoldering the motor)

With that much timing, and ceramic mags, I can't see how you can possibly run a double digit 64P pinion, unless one is running on miniscule power.

And to reiterate, my chassis designed for Group F/Proslot 4002FK's, which is a narrower motor, and uses a huge pinion.

Hence why a C can doesn't fit perfectly.
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#13 Slot-Racer

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:07 PM

This thread is like the movie, Groundhog's Day. Lol.

I already gave him advice in another thread.

8-39 or 9-38 (so one can switch gears without unsoldering the motor)

With that much timing, and ceramic mags, I can't see how you can possibly run a double digit 64P pinion, unless one is running on miniscule power.

And to reiterate, my chassis designed for Group F/Proslot 4002FK's, which is a narrower motor, and uses a huge pinion.

Hence why a C can doesn't fit perfectly.

 

I started a new thread on this as in the other thread I never stated wheels or other factors that I learned make a difference.  :) Also because some are stating to use a 10 pinion so I wanted to start a new thread so more users with more experience can see this question and advise. Your advice is still appreciated. 

 

Thank you.


Mario Damis

#14 MSwiss

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:15 PM

 
"I'm curious why you are putting a G20 motor in a G27 chassis?" = Because I can? :D  I'm not racing so for me any wing chassis that is light is good and fast to run.

A high time Group 20 in a ceramic setup couldn't be a worse choice for a "fun car".

Well, unless you went with an open arm in a ceramic setup.

This thread is like asking Chief what would be a better car to go shopping at Wal-Mart with, the Murder Nova, or Doc's Monte Carlo.

I'm out of it.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#15 Slot-Racer

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:54 PM

A high time Group 20 in a ceramic setup couldn't be a worse choice for a "fun car".

Well, unless you went with an open arm in a ceramic setup.

This thread is like asking Chief what would be a better car to go shopping at Wal-Mart with, the Murder Nova, or Doc's Monte Carlo.

I'm out of it.

 

What do you suggest then?


Mario Damis

#16 Pablo

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:36 PM

Obviously you are not reading, or comprehending, or perhaps you simply don't understand the language.

Swiss said "I'm out of it". That means he's done offering advice because you're not listening.

 

"What do you suggest then?"

Obviously that is directed at Swiss, but I will address it myself:

Your answer was already given in post #12.

That chassis wasn't designed for a G20 motor in the first place.

 

Those posters who gave gearing advice like 10 or 11/something for a G20 motor have probably never run a G20 motor in their lives. Just like I said, that's WAY too tall to gear a G20. Period.

 

I'm done, too. :)


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#17 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 06:52 AM

A 38 degree proslot can have actual timing of 38 to 45 degrees.

I agree a 9 tooth is a safer bet

A old school proslot/ champion rectangle window will fit a slightly older g27 or 27L chassis most times.
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#18 havlicek

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:38 AM

Since it seems the question has been answered (*and not meaning to take this thread sideways), I have to say that I don't understand really high timed armatures.  I'm sure this is because I'm not a racer, so please don't take this as me saying "high-timed armatures are stupid", BECAUSE IT'S NOT!

Back in the later-ish 1980's sometime, I had a brief encounter with slots again when a track opened near me.  I made up a few tripod-style piano wire chassis and popped Mura 20 arms in C can setups, and slammed those in them.  Some were tagged as "20+" which I think meant higher timing advance than the regular "20", so it's sort of appropriate to this discussion.  Of the two, the "+" arm motors ran a little faster, but hotter no matter what I tried gearing-wise, so I stayed with the lower-timed armatures, and they were REALLY fast anyway.  ***None of this was for any racing at all.  My sons were young back then, so I made some cars for them and just wanted something to run when I took them to the track.  So, what's the deal with really high-timed arms?


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#19 Robert BG

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:47 AM

I mentioned earlier it'd be better to run a G12 because the arm is a much better match to the C can mags.The reason Swiss said its a bad choice is the same as I said earlier.It'll run hot because the arm is too much  for the ceramic mags.You will see better performance for a longer time with a G12/15 arm (same winds)The reason Drag guys run 20's is they run them for less than a second at a time.The heat from the arm isnt a big issue,whereas in a track car it'll get hot enough to wipe the mags glaze the com and so on in a minute.

 

Everything in these little motors is a balancing act,go too hot of a arm for the rest of things and it'll run hot and fall on its face.If you're a gear head think of it like over camming a engine.If you put too big a cam in a mild motor it falls on its face and runs like crap.The 20 wind is too much for most c cans and thats pretty much why they went to G27s with the wind,it needs the cobalt mags to perform as it should.

 

I've run plenty of G 20's over the years and they always disappoint,I've even run G27 arms in my Int 15 strap cans (essentially a ultimate G 20)that  have (at the time)the strongest ceramic mags out and after a lap it is always the same thing.They turn into dogs because of the heat.

 

Now if you already have a G 20,gear it right,set it up correctly(9-38) and dont hot lap it 20 mins at a time and it'll be fun.It's just a group12/15 motor will run as fast or faster with less problems over a longer period.

 

Now to open a bigger can of worms.........besides gearing you should be worried about your body.It's possibly the most important thing on a wing car these days.

Do you know what length chassis you have?Also what track are you planning to run on?


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Robert Fothergill

#20 havlicek

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:07 AM

I guess your post wasn't aimed at my question Robert?  I mean, it doesn't touch on timing at all.  Anyway, I ran a bunch of the old 20 arms and they neither ran excessively hot (*the stack length was I guess around .460-ish?) or were otherwise badly behaved.  I don't think I did anything at all besides just a normal non-expert assembly.  Good brakes, fast as all get out (to me anyway), and I could run them non stop for 15 minutes at a time no problem.


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#21 Robert BG

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:07 AM

John,I didnt see your post till after.But I've always looked at things as a game of give and take.Now I wish I could clearly explain whats going on in my head but I'll  give it a shot.

 Timing is a super complex/controversial topic to some.But over the years I made a simplified approach to it that works for me.Me being the key word here;-)

 

Milder winds usually run more timing and hotter stuff less,and imo its a way of matching the performance to the mags the can and the car/track.Foe example I have group 12 arms with up to 46 degrees now,whereas the last time I was racing 35* was about the max.But because the mags are stronger,cans,chassis and such are lighter now the timing can be turned up.I've tried to go past45-46* but for me performance degrades and heat gets high enough to turn the dyes color.

 

Now lets look at a group27 with cobalt singles.Its a hotter wind but with the stronger mags they seem to balance out in the 36-40* range depending on power/gap etc.but as a example you can see where things balance out.Especially when compared to a open wind like a 84 at 18*.

 

Now I wont throw air gap etc into the mix because I really just experiment there.I'll build a motor tight,try a few arms and go from there honing and swapping till I'm happy.

 

Lastly,the older arms have a lot less timing.Probably up to 20* less.


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Robert Fothergill

#22 MSwiss

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:35 AM

John,
As Robert alluded to, they probably had about 20 degrees timing, and long,.460" stacks, and .500" long mags, and an uncut, thick can.
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#23 havlicek

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 10:03 AM

Thanks Robert (and Mike!).  Yes I understand the basics about timing fairly well and that all of this (*and the many other variables) is a balancing act.  Still, there are many other variables: vertical or horizontal brushes, air gaps, stack length, can design, magnets (*which includes several other factors), gearing etc.  I also get that a hotter arm is likely to fare better with less timing advance, after all, more advance does often mean more heat.  Still, since there are so many variables, is it the case that really pushing the timing (*in this case with a G20 arm) is the only way to "go faster" than the next guy?...OR...is it the case that, all other things being equal, the higher timed motor will win more often, and a little more *possible* reliability doesn't matter?


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John Havlicek

#24 Slot-Racer

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 06:06 PM

I'm more concerned about some law I broke putting a C-Can in a G27 chassis more so than timing.  :shok:


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Mario Damis

#25 NJ Racer

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:08 PM

I'm more concerned about some law I broke putting a C-Can in a G27 chassis more so than timing.  :shok:

 

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