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Building motors is stupid (just kidding)


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#26 Rob Voska

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 11:06 AM

What was the baking soda's job in that mixture?






#27 kvanpelt

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 11:10 AM

To remove the refrigerator odors!


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#28 Robert BG

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 11:16 AM

Rob,

 

It acts as a accelerator/filler and makes it hard as a rock. You can fill large gaps fast and easy and when I'd glue a I-15 mag in like that I'd fill between the can and mag and put a gob on the other end. Sloppy but worked in a pinch.  ;)

 

Basically you glue it then sprinkle repeating as required to fill a gap, etc. Or just a sprinkle to accelerate the CA like when I glue lead wires to the guide.

 

Give it a shot and you'll most likely keep some in your box from now on. I keep a little in a tire tube for jokes, and deal acid flux, too ;)


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#29 Half Fast

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 11:29 AM

Yes, baking soda in water is a base (alkaline) and will neutralize the the acid of the flux. I use it when building chassis.
 
Cheers,
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Bill Botjer

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#30 Champion 507

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 12:09 PM

Pablo, thank you for the kind words in your post #19 above. :good:

 

And thank you guys for the "likes" I received. It is appreciated!


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#31 Dave Crevie

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 02:03 PM

Another can of worms opened. I like building motors. It is part of slot racing. And part of slot racing lore. But for some idiot to come and tell me how I should enjoy my hobby is going to do nothing but raise my ire. If someone wants to run only cheap throwaway motors, that's fine with me. I accept that Retro runs sealed motors, and willing to abide by those rules. When I want to build motors, I run ISRA. There's room for both ideologies. 


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#32 Samiam

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 02:30 PM

While it spoils the sarcasm, you need to place this before a post like the #1 post: <<<SARCASM ON>>>.  This gives a clue to the clueless that the words about to be read aren't literal and have an alternative meaning from the obvious.

 

Then end it with <<<SARCASM OFF>>>.  Likewise this label tells the same clueless group that the words afterwards are plain ol' words with direct meaning.

 

Done. 

 

Another can of worms opened. I like building motors. It is part of slot racing. And part of slot racing lore. But for some idiot to come and tell me how I should enjoy my hobby is going to do nothing but raise my ire. If someone wants to run only cheap throwaway motors, that's fine with me. I accept that retro runs sealed motors, and willing to abide by those rules. When I want to build motors, I run ISRA. There's room for both ideologies. 

 

Dave gets it. 


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#33 havlicek

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 03:24 PM

After decades of races and umpteen racers I can categorically state that the vast majority of participants never saw the inside of a motor.

 
While that *may* be true, I think you may be overstating things just a bit, both from "back in the day", as well as outside of retro and outside of the US. I have no idea about the "vast majority", and doubt anyone could quantify that or even back it up in general terms.  Whatever the numbers are, there were, and still are a lot of people paying a lot of money into slots worldwide that "see the inside of a motor" all the time.

People tend to exaggerate  both ways when it comes to this subject, but it really doesn't matter. Sealed motor racing is very popular, and probably more popular in dollar (or Euro etc) terms than other forms of racing. Still, if sealed motor racing suddenly were *all there is,* slots would be taking a big hit.
 

Buy it, run it 'til croaks, toss it, and replace it with another has always been the most popular behavior.

 

Again, probably an overstatement. Trying slots period and then walking away has always been "the most popular behavior" :D, but in terms of dollars coming into the sport, the people who get in deep (*with motors, chassis, bodies etc.) have always been an important subset of all the participants in slots. People who want to get their hands dirty are obviously attracted to Retro racing, and building chassis is, in that regard, very much like building motors.  Actually, building motors is way easier! Yes, there are lots of people that buy chassis built by others, and at the higher-end, I don;t think anyone is building any chassis, but overstating here is most likely not on point.
 

The motor aficionados always used to participate in the motor rebuilding programs, but as the manufacturers started providing quality built motors to the non-building consumer, the ability of the builder to dominate waned.

 
Really what has happened is more that the idea to sanction races with a particular tightly spec'd motor from the factory that couldn't vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and couldn't be messed with has *created a new playing field that didn't exist before. It's not at all that inexpensive Chinese motors have "taken over" from more expensive higher-performing motors. This new arena filled a market that was untapped.
 

Nowadays, the affordable fast sealed motor has taken over and it allows the majority of racers to be competitive without having to spend time and/or money to learn motor rocket science.

 
Again, it hasn't "taken over"... in the sense that racers in faster more expensive classes and motors suddenly have turned away from those. The whole concept of cheap Chinese motors built to a spec has brought new people in, and older people back, more than it has killed say eurosport and open classes.
 

Motor building is and always has been fun for some, but it's never been the favorite pastime of the majority.

 

Again, an overstatement that, even if true (!?) wouldn't be very meaningful. Like I said, the "favorite pastime of the majority" has always been to try slots and then walk-away. The one certainty here is that a lot more people have stopped running/racing than have tried it!

 

Sam, with "the-urge-to-gently-noogie," has been able to good-naturedly tweak people. That sort of thing is good IMO. His sarcasm is no less of an overstatement than the opposite.


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John Havlicek

#34 Half Fast

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 03:51 PM

^^^^Exactly^^^^^ :good:
 
Well said, JH.
 
Cheers

Bill Botjer

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#35 jimht

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 04:22 PM

"I have no idea about the "vast majority", and doubt anyone could quantify that or even back it up in general terms."

I am the fact loaded container that is here to back it up.  :D 

 

"Still, if sealed motor racing suddenly were *all there is*, slots would be taking a big hit."

That's a joke, right?

Slot car racing with racers rebuilding unsealed/rebuildable motors is and has been a very small part of my business forever.

As I said, it's usually run it to death and replace it whether it's rebuildable or not and that's because in the long run rebuilding is generally harder and more expensive than just replacing, your expert opinion as a rebuilder to the contrary.

Yes, it's play and go, mostly "short attention span theater" but that fact doesn't negate the concept of the majority not rebuilding motors ever since quality built motors started appearing in the Seventies.

 

"building chassis is, in that regard, very much like building motors"

Not so much, the simple fact that a bunch of "lovable" has-beens have returned to defend their heritage on the tracks by not building motors refutes your allegation.

 

"has *created a new playing field that didn't exist before"

Again, not so much, it just got rid of the expensive irritating unproductive inconsistent motor rebuilding.

 

"more than it has killed say eurosport and open classes"

Hasn't killed them or added to them either.    :wink2:

 

"The one certainty here is that a lot more people have stopped running/racing than have tried it!"

I guess you mean WRT motor building, eh? Otherwise what you say makes no sense... then again maybe many of those that are no longer around tried motor rebuilding and left shortly thereafter in disgust with the inconsistencies.

 

Enough slicing and dicing, Sam's tongue in cheek OP is pointed and true.

 

We've got many options and motor rebuilding is one of them.

You resurrect lots of old junk and your talents are respected and considerable.

But, the simple fact that one of the currently most popular racing programs doesn't rebuild and has attracted a wide variety of participants is what really tells the tale.

 

I threw in my fact based opinion that rebuilding hasn't ever been that popular, just an irritating necessity that gave the motor manufacturers another revenue source by their providing quality built motors that many customers have never bothered rebuilding.

 

 

I've got the sales revenues that prove my claim and I'm sure the manufacturers and distributors would be glad to confirm.


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#36 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 05:19 PM

Rebuilding motors is dumb. I know cause I'm their leader.


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#37 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 05:32 PM

Ultimately, I can point to my own point-of-sale printouts and say Jim is pretty on the nose. Heck, the PS4002FK is a perfect "patient zero" for this concept. My track runs GTP on a weekly basis. Theoretically racers would be replacing their brushes and springs at least twice as often as they purchase PS4002FK motors to prolong the life of their motors. 

Nope. PS4002FK's have outsold Champion Red motor springs 4 to 1 at my shop since January 1st and outsell pairs of Koford Bigfoot II's 9 to 7. 

Hell's bells guys. I have racers who are more likely to purchase a new pinion than to unsolder the one that's on the motor they're throwing out! Clearly "use it up and throw it away" has some legs as an explanation.


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#38 havlicek

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 06:20 PM

"I have no idea about the "vast majority", and doubt anyone could quantify that or even back it up in general terms."
I am the fact loaded container that is here to back it up.   :D 

 
No, you're just extrapolating from your own personal experience to make broad statements about a worldwide hobby.  I'm pretty careful about my language, but you don't use any qualifiers... at all.
 

"Still, if sealed motor racing suddenly were *all there is,* slots would be taking a big hit."
That's a joke, right?
Slot car racing with racers rebuilding unsealed/rebuildable motors is and has been a very small part of my business forever.

 
Not a joke at all. Again, you're making broad statements that may (*or may not) be true. Even if they are, they don't really mean anything, because in terms of dollars spent in support of the hobby, people who DO "see the inside of a motor" represent a significant subset of all who "play at slots"... and have since the beginning.  Of that, I am absolutely positively 100% sure.
 

"building chassis is, in that regard, VERY much like building motors"
Not so much, the simple fact that a bunch of "lovable" has-beens have returned to defend their heritage on the tracks by not building motors refutes your allegation.

 
?Huh?... or... lots of older folks who have the know how as to something that is way more difficult than building motors get to exp0ress their creativity and share it all in one shot.  You're not really making much sense.

I could easily go point for point with you Jim, I'm no "spring chicken" myself and was there in the early 1960s. I know what I know even with never having been an actual "racer" (although I did race occasionally with not much success). Rewound armatures, whether done by someone else or by the individual, swapped magnets, servos repurposed for slots, all kinds of crazy things done with padlocks, "peanuts", the "pro era" are  not my imagination.  Today, everything pretty much above or besides Retro involves all sorts of things all over the world you seem to either be avoiding or forgetting.  

While I pretty much agree with you, my points stand (quite easily)... you are overstating, and maybe way-overstating all this.  :D


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#39 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 06:31 PM

I guess my quest to return to Slots by winding my own armatures, fitting them in quality Camen-based set-ups and soldering them into cars I build or Camen chassis I solder together can be seen as stupid by some. I used to run my own chassis even though my racing buddy Fortner built chassis that were better handling than many top builders. I glued and cut my own tires using the finest Aguirre rims and orange rubber given to me by Bob Green. My arms were wound on Thorp or Mura blanks and balanced by Thorp, they were carefully fitted into cans either cut down by me or "Green Cans" with Blue Dots. Stupid? Hell I don't know but it was what a lot of guys did way back.

 

I'm going to wind arms and submit my group arms only to a responsible association (not USRA as of right now) for approval. Mainly will try and create open arms that are not hand grenades. in the meantime if anyone sees an arm with JG12 or JG27 you'll know it's from Arizona and will be wound to NCC/USRA specs.

 

Jesse Gonzales


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#40 jimht

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 07:03 PM

John... we can agree to disagree, if you wish, doesn't make me wrong.   ​
 
Rebuilding motors is like work, creating chassis isn't. Ask anyone that's done it for serious racing or to help pay the overhead, not just for the fun of it or to try to save a buck.
 
On that note, been rebuilding anything you've sold to anyone else lately? Good market for that, eh? What does that tell you?
 
Of course my opinions are based on my experience, aren't yours?
 
I'm pretty sure I've rebuilt more motors for other people than you ever will, it's part of my job as the guy behind the counter with the tools and the knowledge. Did you know being everyone's wrench and the corresponding burnout is one of the primary reasons most raceways shut down instead of relocating?

Running a raceway turns out to be like work, go figure.
 
Do ​I know what's going on worldwide? Of course I do, I sell one of the primary ingredients needed for wood slot car tracks worldwide and aside from that, I've been running a raceway for decades in every imaginable location from industrial parks to fancy malls. I've dealt with folks from every continent, not just for braid but all the other slot car stuff that's sold across the counter.

Then there's the other stuff, NCC, TSRA, USRA, TOAA, pick an acronym.

Believe it or not most slot car tracks worldwide survive quite well without emphasizing the joy of rebuilding motors as the biggest draw.
 
And then there's this:
"Even if they are, they don't really mean anything, because in terms of dollars spent in support of the hobby, people who DO "see the inside of a motor" represent a significant subset of all who "play at slots"... and have since the beginning.  Of that, I am absolutely positively 100% sure."
 
Nobody was saying no-one is rebuilding motors, just that it's overrated as a thing of joy.

Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#41 havlicek

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 07:19 PM

John...we can agree to disagree, if you wish, doesn't make me wrong.   ​

 

Well, no. Then again putting this all in absolutes and never saying things like "from what I've seen" or "I think" or "it seems to me," makes it far easier for you to be wrong. Still, I never said you were "wrong", just that you were probably overstating things. See how that works?  ;)
 

Rebuilding motors is like work, creating chassis isn't. Ask anyone that's done it for serious racing or to help pay the overhead, not just for the fun of it or to try to save a buck.

 
Again, this is a matter of personal opinion being used to extrapolate to a larger truth. Let's be clear here, what almost everyone calls "building motors" means spacing an armature, cleaning out a setup, maybe setting some magnets and maybe replacing a bearing. I mean, this is pretty basic/easy stuff that a diligent 12-year old could learn no problem. Building chassis involves making good solder joints on different materials (a real craft in itself), keeping everything flat, straight and aligned, checking and maintaining clearances, watching weight and looking to balance rigidity and flex, controlling movement of pans and body mounts, building for body mounting... or any of a number of different bodies and even types of bodies (including hardbodies). "Built motors" is dead easy by comparison. If working on motors is "work" to you, but making a chassis isn't, that is provably and clearly a matter of personal opinion.
 

Believe it or not most slot car tracks worldwide survive quite well without emphasizing the joy of rebuilding motors as the biggest draw.


Again, I choose my words carefully and I never... not once... claimed that rebuilding motors (or building them in the first place) was "the biggest draw." You're making things up and attributing them to me so you can them argue against them (!?). I don't really care about your experience past or present with the hobby. Your absolute statements are not only impossible to support (you don't have data, just really opinion), but (as I said) even if true don't mean much at all. What you characterize as a miniscule minority from day one of slots, represents a significant part of slots in terms of numbers, history, and dollars spent. The rest is all kinda silly "back and forth stuff." I agree with much of what you said, just not at all with your broad statements presented as fact.


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#42 MSwiss

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 07:38 PM

Jim,
 
The irony of this latest back and forth, with John and yourself, and the moderately big pile of slot car crap I just left at the post office, has really made my day.

I'll forgo the "I told you so" rhetoric and, although it's probably already been touched upon in the above posts, I'll add the below.

There is motor building, which when coming up with style #001, was pretty fulfilling, and then there is motor rebuilding, which has always been nothing but a grind (especially in 1988 when I raced G7 41 times. LOL)
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#43 havlicek

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 08:37 PM

Mine, too!  :D


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#44 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 10:04 PM

Not to stir up the hornets nest but there is a difference between being a motor builder and a motor rebuilder, a true motor builder is a craftsman. I think back to say 1971ish and the guys that I really respected as knowing how to handle wire I cannot think of anyone that topped Bob Kean and Joel Montague, I got to drool over a Kean 25 once and bought the first Pooch 24 that hit Arizona, not to race but to admire it. Yes Bill Steube Sr., Mike Reedy, Pete Zimmerman all wound great arms but they were not as neatly wound as Kean's and Pooch's, mine were OK but they were as fast as anything that I ever ran against. In modern times I have to say that Koford arms are well wound and outright pretty, so are John Havlicek's. The builder makes his set-ups from component parts bought or made, the re-builder just takes it apart and refreshes everything.
 
I'm not slighting guys like Dan Miller who produce top notch arms that are as fast or faster than most, he too is a builder even if he doesn't build his own set-ups. Beuf is in my opinion a top notch builder, he makes an assortment of parts and assembles them into jewels using Koford's beautiful arms, I hope to someday soon make arms that will run alongside Kofords and PK's, there has to be competition so we don't become a one builder hobby.
 
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#45 mike1972chev

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 06:19 AM

"Nobody was saying no-one is rebuilding motors, just that it's over-rated as a thing of joy."

 

Well,I HAVE to give my "newer guy ,never raced extensively" opinion here. Out of the few cars I am building right now,a few of them are being done to compete in classes that require certain Mabuchi motors as the basis for them.Since these are old/NOS ,some WELL used motors and need much work to make them any kind of good(balancing,rewinding,bearings,ETC) it DOES make motor building/rebuilding VERY necessary.I also am redoing a few vintage cars that need original motors.These are not going to be sold at any raceways I am aware of. This holds true with other vintage motors as well.

 

#1 Is motor building/rebuilding  even a huge percentage of the market? Probably not even ever going to be close and why would it be?(Do not even really know the percentages here????)

 

#2 Is this a necessary thing to be done ? ABSOLUTELY in my cases,and many others would agree.

 

#3 Do some enjoy doing it?  I am seeing many do it (mostly on here)and seem to get satisfaction out of it. Otherwise they would not be doing it.....  ;)


Michael J. Boruff


#46 Samiam

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 07:03 AM

OK, you're all correct. OK? 

 

Everyone has separate and independent experiences with race motors.

 

The shoes we walk in fit us and we are comfortable in them.

 

The point of this thread was this...

 

"Don't tell someone else their shoes don't fit and they should be wearing yours." 


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#47 gc4895

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 05:27 PM

All I can think of now is Anthony Quinn, Shoes of the Fisherman.
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#48 Dallas Racer

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 07:38 PM

I don't know why Sam thinks he can joke about any aspect of grown men playing with toy cars. Our toys are not to be taken lightly! This is serious stuff! :treaten:


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#49 Mr. Hollywood

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 08:13 PM

Oh, you guys. We are for the most part grown men and women playing with little plastic cars! There's a place for sealed motors and building them. I do both with Retro Hawks for Retro and GT1 in OCC, FK for GTP and 16Ds for OCC Grp 10.

 

If you want to build, build; if not, don't. Lets just race and have fun. Sam said sarcasm on and off. Whatever makes you happy. Lets race and have fun. Life is too short for all this BS. Peace out, ya'll.

 

Mr. Hollywood out.


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#50 Samiam

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:48 PM

I hope by now everybody gets my intent from all the alerts and explanations. Some added a bit later. :unknw:  Hints are in the title and posts #4, #15, #32 and #46.

 

I like building motors. I like racing them. I like racing sealed motors. I don't like, them but I like racing them.  

 

I don't like people telling me what to like. :aggressive:  


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Sam Levitch
 
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