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Boutique winder arm legality


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#1 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:53 AM

John,

 

I think winders that exhibit craftsmanship like yours should be allowed a standing approval for organized races. Asking a low volume craftsman to submit samples to be destroyed as part of an approval process that was made for high production manufacturers is just another way to keep "boutique" winders out of organized racing. Your work deserves to be raced and recognized.

 

Jess Gonzales


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#2 MSwiss

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:11 AM

Sorry, Jesse, but your above claim doesn't hold water.
 
First of all, no one keeps boutique winders out of the open classes like G7, 1/32, and 1/24 Eurosport.
 
Boutique winders are kept out of restricted wind races because they would be handwinding arms for classes where machine wound arms are required.
 
Plus, they would not be able to keep up with demand as was the case with Monty Ohren/Best o' the West. He did beautiful work, but when he was still alive, it was a case of the haves, and the have nots. Racers willing to pay retail got product and preference over raceways.
 
PS: I started this new thread.


Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#3 havlicek

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:12 AM

Thanks Jess, much appreciated. 

I'm actually fine with all this, and people do race my arms where allowed. In many other kinds of racing, a more expensive handwound arm would make less sense because of an apples and oranges type thing. 
 
I'm also not the kind of guy who would look forward to mass-producing these things. I wind a lot of arms as it is, but not nearly enough for them to widely distributed...it's just too much work to press, wind, weld, tie, epoxy, cut the comms, and then send them out to be ground/balanced.

So, I've never sought and wouldn't seek submitting arms for sanctioned racing approval. 
 
Thanks again though, I do appreciate it.
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#4 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:12 PM

Hi Mike, John,

 

I am actually going to resurrect an old machine winder that Gary Mayeda talked me into building back when Mike's Raceway was still open, that should take care of machine wound requirements. I am still going to handwind opens though, along with 27s. John's work is and should be something to put out there as what can be done if the care and craftsman approach is applied to our hobby. I have no doubt that anything I produce will not look as good as John's winds, but they will be competitive.

 

As I've said previously the old "Masters" like Kean and Montague created jewels with crummy blanks, today's blanks have ushered in a new era of "Masters" including your old employer Stu & Co. and John.

 

I currently have on hand material to run about a couple of hundred various winds and may not ever see them run even if I can put some in racers' hands.

 

John, keep up the good work.

 

Jess


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#5 Samiam

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:29 PM

In Gp-12, wasn't the machine wound requirement dropped in favor of a price cap? 


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#6 Taylor Davis

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:36 PM

In Gp-12, wasn't the machine wound requirement dropped in favor of a price cap? 

Only for "hb(hillbilly)12"

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#7 Dallas Racer

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 09:31 PM

In Gp-12, wasn't the machine wound requirement dropped in favor of a price cap? 

 

I wouldn't think this Koford G12 arm is machine wound.

 

s-l1600.jpg

 

Or this Pro Slot G12.

 

s-l1600.jpg


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#8 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 09:36 PM

Modern CNC winding machines....
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

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#9 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 09:47 PM

I don't know if the CNC is responsible for those winds but if they are more power to them Mike, I did offer you some arms for some restricted racing class that you might have just to get them out there, at no cost to you. Granted I was talking like 8-10 arms but enough to field a class, I made a sort of similar offer to a SCRRA racer but no response. I have a couple of guys in mind to send arms to but they would be factory testers as I have no place to race, they would have the grief of getting someone to allow them to compete alongside arms that I feel are in fact handwound.

 

Jess Gonzales  (the guys I've in mind are both way east of AZ)



#10 MSwiss

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:01 PM

When I worked at Koford, there would usually be two or three CNC wound G12 arms per batch of 48 that looked perfect.

 

There would sometimes be 40 more that were close to perfect.

 

I said I would let one of my guys try an arm of yours in something like our FK12 class, if you wanted an assessment, but I could let him run it on a continued basis.

 

I already had to tell one of my racers that while our monthly Fun races are casual, they are not so casual, it was fair for him to run a handwound John H arm, on some unknown blank, against Pro Slot, machine wound, Hawk arms. 


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#11 Taylor Davis

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:23 PM

In my experience I haven't seen much difference in performance in G12 hand wound vs. machine wound. Then again, I don't have that much experience. LOL.



#12 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:55 PM

I have to give you a lot of credit for Koford's success, Stu being a good engineer and obviously a good manager by putting the right guy in charge of production. I have been buying Koford Cobalt and regular 12s for a possible run to the race in Tennessee or other in the event my winds are not given a "pass" to run. If Camen were still in production I'd go that route due to the respect I have for Joel and his career.

I'll be glad to get you some arms to try either handwound (don't expect John-like winds as I wind more like what was common west coast quality in the NCC era) or once the machine is finished that way. I expect the machine will produce Mura-like winds.
 
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#13 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 02:23 AM

In looking at USRA rules there is no current machine wound rule, it appears that went by the wayside in favor of a price cap. If I'm wrong please show me where it calls for machine wound arms.

 

Jesse Gonzales



#14 havlicek

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 06:51 AM

Yeah... big difference between "machine wound" and "CNC wound," Jess. While both have "machines" doing the winding, the CNC allows for more precise control of the patterns and wire placement. Even between CNC-wound arms as shown above, the Koford looks noticeably better at the stack ends where the coils spill over and the pattern kind of falls apart a little. While I couldn't say one might run better because of the bazillion things affecting a motor's performance, it shows that the same basic technology being used by two different companies doesn't mean the same exact results.  ***Of course, the two blanks (lams) can have a large impact on the finished product also, so there's that too.

I applaud your efforts Jess, and am stoked to hear all this about you making arms. With so few players at this point, anyone wanting to get in... whether for fun or more towards actually manufacturing them has got to be a good thing.  One important aspect of coil winding that I don't think can be handled well... or at all(?) by machines is tensioning the wire as it's wound. That's something you should really dig into as you do these things.


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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 09:06 AM

The CNC machines have adjustable tension.

It doesn't vary back and forth, in the midst of winding, but to wind a 50t coil, IIRC, took about 15-20 seconds.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#16 wbugenis

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:00 AM

 ...it's just too much work to press, wind, weld, tie, epoxy, cut the comms, and then send them out to be ground/balanced.

 
Winding, whether by hand or machine, is only a step among many as John lists above. Those other steps, performed well, take a greater investment of time and skill than is given credit for in these discussions. I wonder what the percent difference in total time it takes for hand winding three coils vs. machine winding. 
 
Enormous amounts of time can be spent on a handmade armature vs. the production efficiencies necessary to meet a price cap. 

 

Cleaning the insulation from the wire at the weld point is a case in point. That insulation on the wire we are using is really tough and takes considerable care, effort, and time to remove completely to insure a good weld.
 
Back when RJR was approved for the USRA, they used a commutator whose shell was stamped in a progressive die from a strip of copper. Probably the most economical way of mass producing commutator shell as opposed to the machined shells we are using today.
 
The welding was done by pneumatically crimping the tab and welding through the insulation.   No cleaning no silver - really quick and dirty – sometimes the arm worked, sometimes not so well.


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#17 Dallas Racer

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 03:53 PM

The CNC machines have adjustable tension.

It doesn't vary back and forth, in the midst of winding, but to wind a 50t coil, IIRC, took about 15-20 seconds.

 

I didn't know there were CNC winders.

 

So if they don't go back and forth, what do they do that a non-CNC winding machine doesn't do?

 

PS: Those 12 arms look near perfect, especially the Pro Slot. It's impressive that a machine can do that.

 

PPS: I don't imagine anyone would be willing to post a pic of one of these CNC winders.


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#18 havlicek

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 03:56 PM

 

 

The CNC machines have adjustable tension.

It doesn't vary back and forth, in the midst of winding

 

 

Yep, I assumed there was an overall tension adjustment, but that's really not what I was referring to.  It's about how much tension at different places in the coil, from bottom to top and from inside to outside.

 

 

 

Winding, whether by hand or machine, is only a step among many as John lists above. Those other steps, performed well, take a greater investment of time and skill than is given credit for in these discussions.

 

 

Boy...you said it Bill.  Just pressing lams alone can be big.  Powder coating is another, and I've had certain winds on certain lams where, if the powder coat is too thick, it screws up the whole pattern.  For sure, removing the insulation and the whole "welding" process are critical, but even tying and epoxying are a whole thing in themselves. 


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#19 havlicek

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 04:01 PM

 

 

PS: Those 12 arms look near perfect, especially the Pro Slot. It's impressive that a machine can do that.

 

 

To me, the Koford clearly looks better!  Look at the outside of the coils near the crown on both arms, that's a pretty significant difference.  From what little you can see, the Koford looks nicer back towards the shaft too.  ***Still, the Koford lams may be a slight bit roomier than the Proslot (?) and it doesn't take much to make a big difference.  Of course though, the only "real proof" of which is better is on the track, and a tiny difference in performance could give either the edge.


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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 04:07 PM

 

I didn't know there were CNC winders.

 

So if they don't go back and forth, what do they do that a non-CNC winding machine doesn't do?

 

PS: Those 12 arms look near perfect, especially the Pro Slot. It's impressive that a machine can do that.

 

PPS: I don't imagine anyone would be willing to post a pic of one of these CNC winders.

When I say "back and forth", I meant the tension doesn't vary mid arm.

 

Just Google it.

 

It's a common industrial machine.


Mike Swiss
 
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#21 havlicek

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 04:16 PM

 

 

PPS: I don't imagine anyone would be willing to post a pic of one of these CNC winders.

 

I'll do you one better.  Here's a video.  The armature is a little larger than those used for slots, so it's probably for like an RC motor or something

https://www.youtube....h?v=IraPEHfAHvI


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#22 olescratch

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 04:28 PM

 

I'll do you one better.  Here's a video.  The armature is a little larger than those used for slots, so it's probably for like an RC motor or something

https://www.youtube....h?v=IraPEHfAHvI

UMMMM!  THAT looked like "hand wound" to me.  That guy looked like he was having a hard time getting that wire to the ends of the legs.  Seriously, I can see where it could all be scaled down to do our little motors.


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#23 wbugenis

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 06:08 PM

 

 

PPS: I don't imagine anyone would be willing to post a pic of one of these CNC winders.

 

This is a picrture of one of the  RJR winders:

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  • CNC winder.jpg

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William Bugenis

#24 wbugenis

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 06:15 PM

Armature in clamp

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  • winder closeup.jpg

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#25 MSwiss

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 07:09 PM

Thanks for posting the real thing, Bill.

 

Doing a quick Google, like I suggested Phil do, I didn't find anything real close.

 

What I forgot to mention in my answer to Phil, part of getting the arms to look that good, machine wound, is play around and fine tune the program.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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