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Boutique winder arm legality


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#26 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:56 PM

I can't compete with an established business like Koford or ProSlot and buy a CNC winding machine or a dynamic balancer, heck at most all, at our ages it would be a foolish investment. I explored buying a balancer in partnership with a buddy but we decided neither of us had enough years left to get a return on our investment. That being said all I want to do is hand wind some arms on premium quality new blanks from such makers as Bill Bugenis and Dan Miller. To get some out there to be raced, that is what it's all about.

 

In conversations I've had with some via PM I've said that there are different ways to wind to produce different results or characteristics, old time winders understood this and did not always go straight Mabuchi. I see some people touting Hemi winds as being something exotic, they aren't, just old tech coming back around.

 

As I've indicated using an old style machine winder will give you sloppy winds and doing handwinds will make them neater. We  need something to break the stranglehold that one or two companies have on the armature market to spur growth and encourage more guys to get their hands dirty so to speak. I started out rewinding burnt out Mabuchi's as a kid from a Barrio, I could not afford to go in and drop a bunch of cash down on stuff so I had to build it. I even started winding arms for people using their motor and my Simco wire for $.75, still have that on the side of the box my dad made for me, we could not afford a Hoffman Box. Encourage people to build, wind, cut & grins that is what we need.

 

Jesse Gonzales


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#27 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 11:32 PM

Well no wonder Kofords arms are so neat, they have arms wound on a huge scale then shrink them down on Wonka Vision so they fit into slot cars. The guy laying the wire in couldn't have been Mike or Stu as he had a bald spot.

 

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#28 havlicek

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 07:12 AM

 

 

That being said all I want to do is hand wind some arms on premium quality new blanks from such makers as Bill Bugenis and Dan Miller. To get some out there to be raced, that is what it's all about.

 

 

Bingo Jess.  ***The one thing I would say is that, to the extent that it's possible, you want to be sure anyone who gets one of your arms won't be trying to use them in racing classes where they shouldn't be used.  This isn't because any of yours or my arms would necessarily be race-winners, they might or might not, but motors approved for this type racing have a set specification (number of turns of a given wire gauge, timing, stack length whatever), and approval represents a guarantee that the spec will be followed.  While I would think that most racers and track owners/tech guys could easily identify a non-approved armature, the last thing you want is to be seen as encouraging cheating.  There are plenty of types of racing...from vintage to "thingie" to drag and modern "outlaw" classes all the way to the open type and eurosport classes where your arms *could* be raced and perfectly legally.

***As to the "other details" besides just the actual winding Bill Bugenis mentioned (*and trust me, he knows), I would say that the com connections (*removing the insulation and either brazing or other means of connecting) are the number one thing to concentrate on.  It seems to me that for #30 and many #29 winds, there is absolutely no reason NOT to use a good silver-bearing solder, and that can get you functional arms with less difficulty.  Just make the solder connections as fast and clean as you can, so as not to heat-stress the com.  Short stack hi-timed 50/29 winds may be too much for solder, I don't know, but I don't solder those just to be sure.  Longer stack 55/29 winds with moderate timing advance are fine...and all of this assumes good hi-temp epoxy and strong tying.  Good epoxy is going to be around the same as far as heat tolerance as good solder.


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#29 wbugenis

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:41 AM

 at our ages it would be a foolish investment. I explored buying a balancer in partnership with a buddy but we decided neither of us had enough years left to get a return on our investment.

 

 

 

Run your life as though you will either live forever or die tomorrow.

 

(BTW, I have that balancer when you are ready)  :)


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#30 LindsayB

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:13 PM

The Problem with your hand wound arms is you have some stiff competition and some engineering challenges - If you go Grp 7 which allows Open Arms you need to wind in either 24 gauge or 24.5.

 

They need to have commutators that wont explode (this has setback most winders)

 

and lamination's that wont self destruct and detonate a setup 


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#31 havlicek

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 05:46 AM

The Problem with your hand wound arms is you have some stiff competition and some engineering challenges - If you go Grp 7 which allows Open Arms you need to wind in either 24 gauge or 24.5.

 

They need to have commutators that wont explode (this has setback most winders)

 

and lamination's that wont self destruct and detonate a setup 


Well, that's not really more of a problem for any particular person than anyone else.  Those arms are a problem for the people already winding them too.  Then too, there are lots of other places for these arms to be raced and just "run" as I mentioned above.  It wouldn't make much sense for Jess to start right out winding #24 open arms in any case.


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#32 Dallas Racer

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 03:32 PM

 

This is a picrture of one of the  RJR winders:

 

Thanks for posting that.

 

That being said all I want to do is hand wind some arms on premium quality new blanks from such makers as Bill Bugenis and Dan Miller.

 

 

 

So you and Dan Miller manufacture arms? I didn't know anyone other than Koford and Pro Slot were making American arms. What other manufacturers are there?


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#33 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 10:14 PM

No, I buy components from Dan Miller and Bill Bugenis, both have encouraged me to create my own dies and begin making my own lamination's, I wind them and set timing and weld using a welder suggested by Joel. if you want a world class Eurosport arm look for PK arms which are marketed by Dan.

Bill and I will be talking soon about a venture.

 

I wound everything from tripple 30's to 26/27's back in the 60's and 70's until I quit in early 1973, a 24 would be a workout on a light bag. the big problem is commutators, Koford has a pretty good design that has made him an industry leader. I've explored building a new comm but with trying to get into everything from X12's to opens it gets a little expensive. overcoming a market lock that is in place will be tough.

 

Jess Gonzales



#34 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:51 AM

By the way when I raced lower class racing in the 80's-92 I had many guys contact me about winding cheaters, they cited Greenaway and some others that did this and actually got away with it. I refused to be involved with anything like that as a man has his integrity and he hasn't got that then what do you have? Not a man in my book. Why did I race the lower rung during that period? I have kids and I did what I wanted to do as their father, I put them through full bachelors degrees out of Bank of Mom & Dad, I offered to help with Masters but that never came up. Now I want to make stuff for others to compete with and I get trashed by someone I considered a friend. I guess I had better go look for another hobby that does not involve my going on bent knee to people I have no respect for to approve my craftsmanship.

 

"No Cheater"

Jesse Gonzales



#35 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 05:43 AM

Greenmeyer not Greenaway 2 different people.


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#36 MSwiss

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:11 AM

By the way when I raced lower class racing in the 80's-92 I had many guys contact me about winding cheaters, they cited Greenaway and some others that did this and actually got away with it. I refused to be involved with anything like that as a man has his integrity and he hasn't got that then what do you have? Not a man in my book. Why did I race the lower rung during that period? I have kids and I did what I wanted to do as their father, I put them through full bachelors degrees out of Bank of Mom & Dad, I offered to help with Masters but that never came up. Now I want to make stuff for others to compete with and I get trashed by someone I considered a friend. I guess I had better go look for another hobby that does not involve my going on bent knee to people I have no respect for to approve my craftsmanship.
 
"No Cheater"
Jesse Gonzales

A few points;
A-as John has pointed out, no one is stopping you from winding arms.

B-you complaining about the powers to be, unwilling to tailor the rules, to your particular situation, is getting tiresome.

C-you are too hung up on G12's.

D-bragging about not cheating is odd.


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#37 Samiam

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:27 AM

Greenmeyer not Greenaway 2 different people.


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I have an NOS arm engraved "Big Jim" , Champion, 24. 

 

Can I assume this is a Greenaway arm?  


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#38 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:55 AM

I’m not sure big Jim Greenaway ever engraved his arms.

Big Jim greenayer always did.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#39 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 10:07 AM

Greenamayer was an egomaniac and put his name on everything.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
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#40 Samiam

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 10:16 AM

They were both named "Big Jim"? 

 

OK, which one wound arms for Champion?


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#41 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 10:21 AM

Both big Jim. Californian greenamayer did work at champion for awhile winding arms.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
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#42 Samiam

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 10:32 AM

Thanks Tony. 

 

The arm was advertised as a Gp-7. So there were no approvals needed, I'm assuming? #24? What wind would this be?


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
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#43 MSwiss

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 11:43 AM

Correct. No approval needed.

Open Gp.7 means open.

If it doesn-t say the turns, unless you have someone who has discetted one, who knows?

Most likely somewhere between 15 and 18 turns.

I'm not sure why they didn't bother to list the turns back then.

Mike Swiss
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#44 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 11:44 AM

Probably a 24. That was most popular wind.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
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#45 zipper

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:19 PM

We never had idea about turns in early 70's, just 24, 25 or 27/28 - 23 didn't work on our tracks. Plain common Pooch arms mostly, the plus version might have the wind engraved (but just the gauge?) - never saw one. OK, found this:

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#46 Dallas Racer

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:59 PM

Mike, what did you say it cost to get one batch of sealed Retro motors made? $30K? The cost of entry is high for everyone, not just you, Jess. 

 

Why not just wind arms for opens, drag motors, etc., that don't need a sanctioning body's approval?


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#47 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:02 PM

Tony, thanks for the clarification I didn't know either "Greena" I wondered why Mayeda used both names in conversations when he would call to get historical information.

 

Mike, I am proud that I have never wound a "Cheater" arm, I had many requests to do so by guys that raced on factory teams, yes some from AZ. Yes, I will wind stuff that does not require USRA approval for now, I have contacted Bill Skinner about the new group being formed possibly being my approval organization.

 

I was not referring to buying a batch of Chinese retro motors in the high cost to tool up, try 20K for a Hoffman balancer to start then go up from there with other niceties like CNC & EDM equipment etc.

 

Zipper, isn't that a great looking arm? Joel wound some real Beauties on Mura, Champion blanks, I bought one just to look at:-) I'd have bough at Kean if they ever showed up out west, again just for the level of craftsmanship exhibited.

 

The point I'm trying to make is you have to allow some way for someone to break into a market that is already dominated by an established company. There are lots of guys that can do it (wind) well and some who are exceptional including Koford, PK, Camen etc. the others just need a better comm to maybe show back up in a main somewhere. Of course you would still have to out drive guys like Beuf and others.

 

have a pleasant Sunday afternoon or evening, put down the iron sit down with your family and make some memories, slot cars will be there tomorrow morning.

 

Jess Gonzales



#48 jimht

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:53 PM

I quit winding arms long before I got bored with it, simply because I reached a point where all I was really doing was winding.

 

I was sending arms to Zimmerman et al, for the finish work...comm connections, epoxy, balance, especially when I was doing 24 and 25 gauge arms.

 

It became obvious to me quickly in the late Sixties that those that do it for a living have the equipment to do it right and their lower failure rate put mine to shame.

 

Things have been kind of mired in the USRA mud for quite a while.

 

That said, if someone were to produce a series of tagged 28 gauge armatures, various winds, it might end the stultifying never ending umpteen variations on Gp12 and provide something reasonable for weekly racing that wasn't as hairy as a GP27...and they wouldn't be competing against or within a current market, especially with the rebuildable FK motors.   :D 


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#49 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:08 PM

Good observation Jim, I used to do all the finishing myself which was iffy until I had conversations with Bill Sr. one trip over to Granlee's track. I began using better epoxy and heatsinking the kirkwoods during soldering. After that the weak point was the Kirkwood comms,

 

I'll wind anything that is an accepted standard and put it out there at fair price as I just want guys to have an option to choose from. Tell me what 28AWG spec you want and I'll send some out for you to try with tags or some color scheme to identify it.

 

JG



#50 MSwiss

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:14 PM

Jess,
Did you really commend yourself for never winding a cheater arm?

Cheating is something to not be proud of.

Not cheating is just normal behavior.

Back to all your BS about Proslot and Koford's stranglehold, on the G12 arm business.

When I started at Koford, in 85, Stu didn't make his own 15 arm.

We bought raw Mura's and finished them.

He didn't whine about how the rules were Mura biased/weren"t tailored to his resources.

I know Skinner well.

I'd say your chances of getting a G12 arm approved, are somewhere between 0 and 1%.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516






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