49 replies to this topic

[swodem]

Maybe what we have been waiting for - or just another ‘puppy dog’?



Seems expensive at US$49 when the seal is so fragile that it’s often well stuffed long before the motor is...

I like the idea of cooler running and a properly prepared arm though.

[gotboostedvr6]

I believe it runs cooler and more reliability then a PS4002FK.

IMO It will be bound up having Intruder laminations, angle tip poly neos, low timing, and the metal bar across the motor. A Hawk 6 style can and full tip ceramics, 35 or so degree timing, and copper hardware would have been a much better choice.

It's gonna run hotter then a PD and the comm is going to die very, very quickly.

It will run hot because we are racers and guys are gonna gear them to win. When considering the poly or neo magnet/ minican family of motors you will typically find that run a larger pinion gets a faster lap. Motors don't last when run this way. Sealed motors then quickly become a problem.

[swodem]

Probably worth trying IMHO

We don’t know all the above until we test it...

[B.C.]

Do the sheets of red seals come with the motor or are they available separately?

 

Not that anyone would need them to cheat, but in case some poor racer had one "fall off."

 

It seems like we heard of a lot of seals falling off of Puppy Dogs.

[Jesse Gonzales]

Careful with suggesting that someone will "cheat." I was criticized for being proud of the fact that as an armature winder I would not wind "cheaters" even for friends. Of course after refusing to wind them arms with ten dead winds to have an arm like ones being a source of humor by some SoCal winders I no longer considered them friends. The PS motor looked like it was pretty well-thought out but it is a bit pricey for those racers on a budget.

 

With so much written in the blog about some people being unethical or being shady regarding refurbishment, has anyone considered adding Proformance and Beuf to the list of approved refurbish operations and just removing the guys that have baggage? Of course leave PS on the list but allow pricing that would allow the provider a fee that covers their overhead, etc., for a given set of services.

 

Jesse Gonzales

[havlicek]

Looks like a nice motor to me. PS says they've been testing the motor and that it runs cooler and more reliably, and I doubt they'd be putting the motor out there saying that if racers were going to immediately come to a different conclusion. I tend to agree with Dave at least as far as the magnets though. I wonder why they didn't go with ceramics in a can that's good for making a strong field with a 70t/30 wind, but again I have to believe they tested all the obvious variations.

The thing I wonder about most is this being a $50 motor. Racers already complain about these things (minicans in general) when they cost a third that much and are about as good a value as one could imagine. To me, the endbell could be improved on a $50 motor, but the market will tell, and I applaud Pro Slot for (kind of) moving the minican format forward. I also think that, at $50, a lot of people are going to want to service the motor, even if some rebuilding/servicing program gets started. I know this may not be a "popular" position, but the price point here puts the motor beyond the "sealed" category, but once the seals come off everything changes. At that point, two simple tests at tech would be the answer... one for magnets and the second for resistance (measured at the bussbars or the brushes).

One thing not mentioned above is that (*and maybe I'm wrong here???) since the arm is made here by Pro Slot, that also means the motor is assembled here instead of coming from China ready to go. So part of the price is a "potentially" better assembly, as well as better arm, springs, and brushes. It wouldn't make sense for Pro Slot to be sending the finished arms to China for assembly, and then having the motors sent back here, but that much isn't clear.

[havlicek]

Trying to see what's out there near the price point, I just went to PCH and I see:

Koford Drag 12... fully assembled C-can for $64

Koford Group 20............................................$70

Koford Hawk Group 12..................................$58

Koford Hawk (Koford arm, BF brushes, and conductive springs!) $48

Koford Super Wasp...... ............. ...................$62

Koford Ultra Super Wasp....... .......................$62

Pro Slot Big Dog 4002C-BB (55t/30 with ball bearing)...$56

So this new motor is pretty much right in the middle of a crowded approximate price range (not even including the many larger D motors) of both minican and C-can motors. In the end, it will be up to the racers of course.  

[B.C.]

I wasn't trying to accuse anyone, once again an attempt at a little humor is unacceptable to some.

 

I like the looks of the new motor and hope that it will be submitted and approved. I never wanted the Puppy Dog to be outlawed. We need more choices than what we have, and the board has asked for submissions. Yes, it is costlier than what is currently legal, but it should be more consistant. At least for my experience with the Puppy Dog was there was little difference from motor to motor. I do like if approved for more reputable builders to come on board with refurb services.

[Eddie Fleming]

I don't do Facebook so I am sure I am missing something.

 

Is this a replacement for something or is it a new product in the market?

 

I am not sure what group is going to approve a motor at this price point.

 

I wish PS luck with it wherever it fits into things. 

[Samiam]

This motor's specs does not fit any racing group's rules as it stands today. This motor is in a class of its own and can not and will not be approved into any existing racing class. 

 

If some racing group out there wants to rewrite their rules and allow this motor, that is up to them. 

 

Four words... remember the Puppy Dog. 

 

Three more... authorized motor refurbisher.

[Howie Ursaner]

No way for IRRA^® Retro for me, but maybe some other classes would want to use them.

[Gary Adams]

Sam, seven great words.

[MSwiss]

I don't do Facebook so I am sure I am missing something.
 
Is this a replacement for something or is it a new product in the market?
 
I am not sure what group is going to approve a motor at this price point.
 
I wish PS luck with it wherever it fits into things.

They are going to be the hand-out motor for an event at Downriver Speedway, in Michigan, in early June, called Flexipalooza.

It's going to feature, along with hand-out motors, hand-out tires, and hand-out bodies.

Registration opens on April 15, and you must prepay your entry fees by April 18. $60 per class.

They are limiting the entries to a maximum of 64 per class.

[Samiam]

They are going to be the handout motor for an event at Downriver Speedway, in Michigan, in early June, called Flexipalooza.

Perfect use for this sealed motor.

[Eddie Fleming]

$60 per class.

They are limiting the entries to a maximum of 64 per class.

 

Now that sounds a little optimistic to me.

[swodem]

How can you have a $50 motor, tyres, and a body for $60?

Obviously it’s not really a $50 motor then...

[MSwiss]

The organizer (Mossetti?) is obviously getting the motor (and I also assume the tires and bodies) at a discount.
 
I think $49 retail is a fair price for the motor.

[Mike Patterson]

Please excuse my ignorance/memory loss, but how is this motor different from the Puppy Dog?

[swodem]

Winds, wire, timing.

PD was 75 turns of 31AWG, 25 degrees.
PS4007 is 70 turns of 30AWG and 15 Degrees

That’s my take on it.

[Jason Holmes]

And poly neo mags.

 

jason

[Fast Freddie]

How can it possibly compete with a $14 motor that has 65 turns of #30 wire with polyneo magnets, five turns of wire less per pole more than makes up for CNC machine winds. If this new motor is blueprinted to perfection it's still at a disadvantage. Sorry, I forgot the "normal" size comm, good if you're allowed to blueprint them but are you? Seems like a hyper Puppy Dog in all respects. 

 

The only bad part about the PS 4002FK is that in most all cases you can't blueprint it to fix the minor flaws it comes with from the man. When you can it's a screamer. Luckily the Gaithersburg 1100 allows blueprinted PS4002FKs, that's where I'm taking mine this year. 

[Dominator]

What's the timing on the arm?

[S.O. Watt]

My first ever "rewound" armature was a 70t 30ga Mabuchi 16D done by none other than Doug "Inline" Henline. 1966 IIRC.

[MSwiss]

What's the timing on the arm?

 

15 degrees.

 

How can it possibly compete with a $14 motor that has 65 turns of #30 wire with polyneo magnets,  5 turns of wire less per pole more then makes up for CNC machine winds.  If this new motor is blueprinted to perfection it's still at a disadvantage.  Sorry I forgot the "normal" size comm, good if your allowed to blueprint them but are you?  Seems like a hyper Puppy Dog in all respects.  The only bad part about the PS 4002FK is that in most all cases you can't blueprint it to fix the minor flaws it comes with from the man.  When you can it's a screamer.  Luckily the Gaithersburg 1100 allows blueprinted PS4002FKs, that's where I'm taking mine this year. 

 

It's supposed to have comparable performance.

 

It's 70 turns because apparently it's on a thinner leg blank than the 4002FK has.

[Fast Freddie]

A $50 motor having comparable performance to a $14 motor. Thinking in reverse, how would G7 racers feel if a $25 G7 motor came out and it had comparable performance to the current G7 motors? I'll bet we have a run on G7 racing. 

 

If a motor that is more than triple the cost of the current motor doesn't best it, consistently, by at least half a second it's not worth the cost. IMHO when you think about it, raising the cost of anything in this hobby is going in the wrong direction. Let's try lowering the cost of racing.