Jump to content




Photo

Ultrasonic cleaning


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 chasbeeman

chasbeeman

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • Joined: 07-January 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Louis

Posted 29 March 2018 - 10:54 AM

I'm looking for recommendations on what type cleaning solution to use for an ultrasonic cleaner. Mainly motors, arms, cans, endbells. Perhaps a chassis occasionally. Thanks in advance for any info related on this matter!


Charles Beeman




#2 chasbeeman

chasbeeman

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • Joined: 07-January 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Louis

Posted 29 March 2018 - 10:58 AM

Photo for reference.

us.jpg
Charles Beeman

#3 TG Racing

TG Racing

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 431 posts
  • Joined: 11-December 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kettering, OH

Posted 29 March 2018 - 11:11 AM

50% Simple Green and water.
Thom Greene

#4 grooverunner

grooverunner

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPip
  • 145 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MA

Posted 29 March 2018 - 11:46 AM

What TG Racing said.


Ken  Hill

#5 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,666 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 29 March 2018 - 12:07 PM

Does anyone heat up the water when using the ultrasonic machines? 


Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#6 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,266 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 29 March 2018 - 12:31 PM

i haven't heard of using heated water. What is it supposed to accomplish, Phil? i built a Heathkit ultrasonic cleaner in the early '70s and it still works great. I put my set-ups in a jar of industrial degreaser/cleaner then put the jar in the cleaner's tank filled with water. I did not put arms in the ultrasonic cleaner.

Bill Fernald
 

I heard they weren't going to make yardsticks any longer.


#7 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,976 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 March 2018 - 12:49 PM

I'm not a fan of putting arms in an ultrasonic, especially with ultrasonic solutions.

If you are not careful,(not diluted enough, too much time in the tank), the brazes will degrade, to the point there is an open connection.

There have been multiple times I've known of arms getting ruined.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#8 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 750 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 29 March 2018 - 02:26 PM

I use Muc-Off motorcycle cleaner. It’s ph neutral so won’t affect alloys. Often I’ll take the brushes out of a motor and put a whole chassis in.

There is an optimum temp for ultrasonic, it’s about 65 degrees Celsius. That’s why better ultrasonic cleaners have heater elements.

Swiss, never heard of brazing degrading. That’s a weld, no way the process could damage it.

Many people don’t understand Ultrasonic cleaning and how it works.



#9 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,976 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 March 2018 - 02:35 PM

Swiss, never heard of brazing degrading. That’s a weld, no way the process could damage it.

 

Wrong.

 

I know of at least two cases, from two different reconditioners. The braze material was etched away. IOW, when the arm was finished, it weighed less than when it started.

 

As clearly stated, the solution and time were factors.

 

I'm sure there are safe solutions.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#10 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 750 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 29 March 2018 - 02:47 PM

Actually I am right.

“Ultrasonic cleaning uses cavitation bubbles induced by high frequency pressure (sound) waves to agitate a liquid. The agitation produces high forces on contaminants adhering to substrates like metals, plastics, glass, rubber, and ceramics. This action also penetrates blind holes, cracks, and recesses.”

Sounds to me like the issue was one of the liquid (acid?) used and its time submersed in it, and the result would have been the same regardless if it was part of an ultrasonic cleaning process or not.

Bubbles only displace soft contaminants like oil or grease, and the detergent is there to help dissolve and wash away once displaced from the surface.



#11 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,976 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 March 2018 - 02:57 PM

It was with a commercial solution. Not something homebrewed.

 

The other hint is that the comm will be very bright, and the arm stack surface , while the dye will be gone, will have copper colored mottling  on it.

 

Whether it would have happened if the ultrasonic is on or off, is not important.

 

It was during the process with an ultrasonic product.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#12 swodem

swodem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 750 posts
  • Joined: 29-October 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 29 March 2018 - 04:34 PM

..Whether it would have happened if the ultrasonic is on or off, is not important...


Wha?

It’s been found that door handles are to blame for the poisoning in England of a double agent and his daughter.
Not the Russians.
The fact that a powerful poison was put on the door handle isn’t the point.
It was the act of operating the door handle that is responsible for their death.

#13 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,976 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 March 2018 - 04:51 PM

I've never heard of someone using an ultrasonic solution without an ultrasonic machine.
 
My post, to a friend and good customer, was clear as day.
 
Be careful with solution and time. Some will attack the copper, and more importantly, the bronze braze.
 
A super-shiny arm that doesn't run isn't of much use to a slot racer.
 
Steve,

Something for you to read:
 
ultrasonic cleaning dos and don'ts
 
"Unless you bought a more upmarket variable frequency sweep ultrasonic cleaner I would not put armatures into it. You'll punch holes straight through the insulation on the windings. Place some aluminium foil into the bath. If it punches holes into the foil, you don't have a variable sweep model."


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#14 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,976 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 March 2018 - 05:12 PM

Some comments from Dan Miller, of PK armatures fame:

 

Dan Miller
10-30-2003, 11:34 PM
May I suggest that you do not clean your armatures in an ultrasonic cleaner.

 

Dan Miller
10-31-2003, 11:10 AM
I feel that the violent ultrasonic action, during cleaning, will compromise the integrity of the armature. I do not recommend that you immerse an armature, into any liquid, resonating at very high frequency. Testing has shown me that this seems true. I had this thought many years ago and put it to a reasonably objective test. The ultrasonic cleaned arms died before the hand cleaned ones. It especially hurts commutators.

  • boxerdog, gotboostedvr6 and David Rees like this

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#15 chasbeeman

chasbeeman

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • Joined: 07-January 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Louis

Posted 29 March 2018 - 05:19 PM

I'm not a fan of putting arms in an ultrasonic, especially with ultrasonic solutions.

If you are not careful,(not diluted enough, too much time in the tank), the brazes will degrade, to the point there is an open connection.

There have been multiple times I've known of arms getting ruined.

 

Thanks for your expertise Mike!, what is best method for thoroughly cleaning a armature?


  • aquavelvis likes this
Charles Beeman

#16 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,976 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 March 2018 - 05:36 PM

If it's really dirty, spray it off with something like Pure.

All I used to do was sand the dye off, in a drill press, with real fine sandpaper.

The the only important (clean) part of the arm will get cleaned when the comm gets trued.


  • garyvmachines likes this

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#17 raisin27

raisin27

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 420 posts
  • Joined: 11-March 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Garden City, MI

Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:49 AM

Back in the day I used to use a dental product, if I remember correctly it was called MEER concentrated ammoniated something or other.

 

It was amazing... motor set ups, chassis, anything really would look just like new after a cleaning.

 

Since returning to the slots I have tried to find it again with no luck. Maybe it spoiled me but I have not found anything satisfactory since.


Michael Garrett

 

Proud to drive an American car, from an American manufacturer, assembled by American workers.

 

 I own a car from each of the big 3, I have a Ford, a Mercury, and a Lincoln.


#18 Dan Bremer

Dan Bremer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 27 posts
  • Joined: 21-June 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peoria, IL

Posted 30 March 2018 - 04:17 PM

Since early 1970s I've used ultrasonic cleaning machines on both watches (mechanical that you windup,not battery) and clock movements (at Bremer Jewelry,Peoria & Bloomington,IL.).Mike Swiss & Dan Miller are right to not use on armatures,etc. For good ultrasonic machines and correct cleaning solutions you might check out S.Larose.com in Greensboro,North Carolina.



#19 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,081 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 31 March 2018 - 07:04 AM

I can't imagine why anyone would put an armature through such a process when the commutator is the only part of an arm that needs to be REALLY clean.  I also don't doubt that ultrasonic cleaning of an arm could damage or even ruin an arm.

Couple of things:

 

 

 

i haven't heard of using heated water. What is it supposed to accomplish, Phil?

 

Most any solvent (*and water is of course "the universal solvent") will work more effectively when warm than when cold.  Try washing your dishes with cold water, and compare the results with washing them in warm water.

 

 

 

Swiss, never heard of brazing degrading. That’s a weld, no way the process could damage it

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but brazing is not welding.  Brazing uses a second metal that melts at a lower temperature than the metal being joined.  It's really high-temperature soldering.   Welding fuses two pieces of the same metal with no filler metal.  


  • David Rees likes this
John Havlicek

#20 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,666 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 31 March 2018 - 01:45 PM

Hot water accellerates cleaning. It helps to hold the dirt in solution. Try cleaning with a 145°F solution and see what happens!

 

It's why washing your clothes in hot water gets them cleaner than cold water... despite what the enviros, Gov'ment and detergent companies tell you...

 

Guys, ultrasonic cleaning is great but you have to understand that ultrasonic cleaning creates cavatation at the surface of the part. Cavatation can physically erode metal quickly. Hydroplane propellers are a good example.

 

If the cleaner is aggressive you will have a **very** clean surface exposed, erosion can very much occur. You really need to have the proper cleaner for the material you're cleaning.

 

I have never tried cleaning an armature in a ultrasonic cleaner. I think Mike Swiss and Dan Miller are right about the copper and brazing being attacked. I'd also be wary of the integrity of the epoxy over the windings too.


  • havlicek and David Rees like this
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#21 David Rees

David Rees

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 111 posts
  • Joined: 09-April 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 01 April 2018 - 01:07 AM

Monty Ohren told me to never do ultrasonic cleaning on a armature .  Just clean it with a toothbrush and some Methylated spirits and that is it . 



#22 Kim Lander

Kim Lander

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 394 posts
  • Joined: 06-June 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Macon, GA

Posted 01 April 2018 - 07:04 AM

What I have noticed is another problem with the ultra-sonic method of cleaning an armature, when you combine heat, chemical cleaning, and the ultra-sonic attack on the arm you have some thing no one  has addressed....the damage to the insulation on the wire itself....if epoxy doesnt COMPLETELY cover the wire in manufacture you have places on the wire that can be damaged by the ultra-sonic, chemicals and heat...all of which can and will create a short in the armature. Happy Easter to all.



#23 chasbeeman

chasbeeman

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • Joined: 07-January 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Louis

Posted 02 April 2018 - 12:10 PM

What I have noticed is another problem with the ultra-sonic method of cleaning an armature, when you combine heat, chemical cleaning, and the ultra-sonic attack on the arm you have some thing no one  has addressed....the damage to the insulation on the wire itself....if epoxy doesnt COMPLETELY cover the wire in manufacture you have places on the wire that can be damaged by the ultra-sonic, chemicals and heat...all of which can and will create a short in the armature. Happy Easter to all.

Mike Swiss mentioned shorted winds in his first post, so cans, magnets and chassis are safe but no armatures! Thanks for the imput.

Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Tapatalk
Charles Beeman

#24 chasbeeman

chasbeeman

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • Joined: 07-January 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Louis

Posted 02 April 2018 - 03:31 PM

Since early 1970s I've used ultrasonic cleaning machines on both watches (mechanical that you windup,not battery) and clock movements (at Bremer Jewelry,Peoria & Bloomington,IL.).Mike Swiss & Dan Miller are right to not use on armatures,etc. For good ultrasonic machines and correct cleaning solutions you might check out S.Larose.com in Greensboro,North Carolina.

S.larose is out of business but thanks.

Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Tapatalk
Charles Beeman

#25 Kim Lander

Kim Lander

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 394 posts
  • Joined: 06-June 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Macon, GA

Posted 02 April 2018 - 03:41 PM

Mike was talking about the degrading of the brazed joints on the commutator....I am talking of the insulation on the wire itself, inside the windings on the poles the wire can be exposed by the heat, chemicals , and the ultrasonic waves....best to just not put arms in ultra sonic...







Electric Dreams Online Shop