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CW/CCW motor direction


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#1 Alchemist

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 04:22 PM

I grew up with inline motor slot cars and I've always been baffled in regards to CW/CCW motor direction.

 

Back in the 1960s, when I was building my first inline slot car with stamped chassis, I had no idea where to place the crown gear on the rear axle.

 

A racer was kind enough to assist me by telling me to "see which way the motor ran faster" - and that is how you determine crown gear placement.

 

No mention of CW or CCW direction, probably not wanting to confuse me even more - LOL!

 

I've seen instructions on CCW motors that state "running the motor in the opposite direction will shorten the motor lifespan."

 

So, my question is this:

 

What determines the motor rotation?

 

When rewinding an armature, if the wire is wound in a particular direction, does this determine the direction the motor should operate?

 

What if one pole is wound one direction, the next pole the opposite direction, and the third pole back to the original direction, shouldn't it run well in either direction?

 

Thank you in advance for your understanding on my lack on knowledge.

 

I'm just wanting a better understanding when I attempt to rewind a motor.

 

I appreciate your input - thanks again!

 

Ernie


Ernie Layacan




#2 MSwiss

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 04:44 PM

The direction the motor should run is based on the direction the comm is advanced.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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#3 Martin

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 04:56 PM

I will let a motor guy explain timing, but what I do when I put a car together is put it on variable speed DC transformer I made from Heathkit type parts and I wired in a amp gauge. So my method is whichever way it draws the least amps is the way I run it.

 

Once I do this I mark the direction on the can with an arrow and when viewed from the end bell you call this CCW or CW based on your arrow marking.

 

Ernie, I will stand by and learn with you. There are guys on here that wind there own arms and hot rod motors. I just try to maximize vintage motors I already have.

 

Just remember timing is everything.


Martin Windmill

#4 swodem

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 05:01 PM

The direction the motor should run is based on the direction the comm is advanced.


This is correct.

 

Otherwise if you swap the wires around and run it the other way, the comm is retarded, which is inefficient and generates too much heat = motor failure.

Some motors have no advance, and can happily run in either direction, but are slower RPM types.

As RPM is increased through the options of magnet strength, no. of winds and wire gauge, the motor needs advanced timing, same as your cars ignition spark.

I have heard it said but I don’t know enough to be an authority, that 45 degrees is the maximum an arm should be Advanced



#5 Don Weaver

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 06:34 PM

The direction of rotation is determined by the orientation of the magnetic field to the direction of current flow.  Timing simply increases (or decreases) the speed of the armature - more timing in the in the direction of rotation will increase the RPM.  Timing does not determine the direction of rotation.

 

Don


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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 07:08 PM

The direction of timing very well determines the way the motor should be run.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#7 Booger

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:14 PM

What Don said........that's what I was taught..


Gary "Booger" Baker

#8 MSwiss

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:15 PM

I grew up with inline motor slot cars and I've always been baffled in regards to CW/CCW motor direction.
 
Back in the 1960s, when I was building my first inline slot car with stamped chassis, I had no idea where to place the crown gear on the rear axle.
 
A racer was kind enough to assist me by telling me to "see which way the motor ran faster" - and that is how you determine crown gear placement.
 
No mention of CW or CCW direction, probably not wanting to confuse me even more - LOL!
 
I've seen instructions on CCW motors that state "running the motor in the opposite direction will shorten the motor lifespan."
 
So, my question is this:
 
What determines the motor rotation?
 
When rewinding an armature, if the wire is wound in a particular direction, does this determine the direction the motor should operate?
 
What if one pole is wound one direction, the next pole the opposite direction, and the third pole back to the original direction, shouldn't it run well in either direction?
 
Thank you in advance for your understanding on my lack on knowledge.
 
I'm just wanting a better understanding when I attempt to rewind a motor.
 
I appreciate your input - thanks again!
 
Ernie

Ernie,
When you rewind a motor, if you are putting on a new comm, advance the timing in the direction you want the motor to turn, for your application.
 
You are always safe with CCW, looking at the comm, from the endbell side, because it will run with the most common anglewinder set-up, and with an inline, it doesn't matter, as you usually will have room to run the crown on either side.
 
So in the pictured arm, a normal Koford, is timed approx. 32 degrees, and is CCW at the endbell, and CW, at the can.
 
The measurement is from the middle of the stack, to the middle of the comm slot.

 

So in the case of the arm pictured below, if the arm was zero degrees, the comm slot would be in line with the middle of the balance hole.
 
 20180410_204819-1.jpg


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#9 Booger

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:27 PM

Mike,if you take that same motor and flip the magnets 180,it won't be happy .will it?.....Wouldn't the comm need to be advanced in the other direction?


Gary "Booger" Baker

#10 MSwiss

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:46 PM

What Don said........that's what I was taught..

No one said "Timing determines the direction of rotation."

 

It doesn't.

 

Of course, you can flip the motor leads, and the motor will run in the opposite direction.

 

The question by Ernie was how do you determine which way the motor will run better.

 

And that is timing.

 

As Steve said ".....if you swap the wires around and run it the other way, the comm is retarded, which is inefficient and generates too much heat".

 

That is absolutely right.

 

We were hosting a wing race at the Koford factory, and while one of the slower class races was being run, Les Wright hastily put his G27 motor on his power supply to break in, while he went to marshal.

 

At some point in the race, we started smelling a burning motor, but couldn't figure out whose it was , because no one's car on the track, was slowing.

 

Les had hooked the leads up backwards, and with the 32-40 degree, G27 arm, running in the wrong direction, it got so hot, the epoxy was smelling, and arm dye changed from cherry red, like the arm I showed, to dark brown.

 

Mike,if you take that same motor and flip the magnets 180,it won't be happy .will it?.....Wouldn't the comm need to be advanced in the other direction?

If you flip the magnets, the motor just needs to have the leads reversed.

 

The motor will only run well in the direction it was designed to run (in the direction of the timing advance)

 

An exception is a motor like the Slick 7 Mini Brute.

 

They had very little timing, and when you factored in poor Chinese QC, guys using them in retro racing, had to try the crown gear on both sides, to find out which was the superior direction to run them.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#11 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 10:29 PM

The missing Question - All poles need to be wound in the same direction to maintain correct polarity.  Reversing one will make the motor not run at all.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
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#12 havlicek

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 05:16 AM

I'm sure we've gone over this many times before, but Mike is correct (*all of his posts).  It's simple...these motors will run in either direction, regardless of timing.  Timing determines the best direction to run the motor, and best direction/timing is determined by the com's position relative to the arm's poles.  Armatures can be wound CCW or CW, neither matters, and neither will affect how well an arm runs in either CW or CCW directions.  That's the job of the com and it's timing, because the com and only the com determines *when* (hence the description of  this as "timing") the poles are energized, and that's what's in play

 

 

The missing Question - All poles need to be wound in the same direction to maintain correct polarity.  Reversing one will make the motor not run at all.

...or the question nobody asked :)  I'm not sure at all that this is correct.  I think that, as long as you follow the same order of com connection as you work your way around the arm winding, you could wind two poles CCW and one CW and the motor might work OK, but I can't imagine a scenario where someone would do this anyway...even a first time winder, so the question is kind of academic.  I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time!


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#13 havlicek

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 06:51 AM

...and more on Ernie's original question:

 

 

A racer was kind enough to assist me by telling me to "see which way the motor ran faster" - and that is how you determine crown gearplacement.

 

No mention of CW or CCW direction, probably not wanting to confuse me even more - LOL!

That's because the motors *WERE* timed, just not intentially.  Even though those motors were theoretically "neutral timed", in practice, they almost always ran a little better in one direction than the other.  So, most often people scratched an arrow on the top of the can so they knew which side of the pinion to place the crown gear.  


John Havlicek

#14 Alchemist

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 01:39 PM

Thank you kindly for all the replies!

 

 

 

So, most often people scratched an arrow on the top of the can so they knew which side of the pinion to place the crown gear.  

 

HI John - That is exactly what I was told to do back then!

 

Mike - thank you for the info and photo example you provided!

 

Thanks again everyone - your replies are very much valued!

 

Ernie


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Ernie Layacan

#15 Booger

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 02:21 PM

I always thought if the timing was 0,depending on how the magnets were installed,the motor would run faster in one direction than the other,so you advanced the comm in that direction....

 

.Learn something new everyday....Thank you!


Gary "Booger" Baker

#16 havlicek

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 07:16 AM

I always thought if the timing was 0,depending on how the magnets were installed,the motor would run faster in one direction than the other,so you advanced the comm in that direction....

 

.Learn something new everyday....Thank you!

 

 

Yeah, apparently there is still some misunderstanding about all this.  If the timing WERE an actual/precise zero advance, the motor would run equally well in either direction.  

I really don't want to make this any more complicated than it needs to be, but there still *could* be reasons why a motor would run "better" in one direction, even if it were perfectly "neutral timed".  For instance, if the brushes had worn with a slight "cock" or "kant" because of how tight or loose the end bell hardware holds them, that could favor running one way or the other, but it could easily be corrected by just changing the brushes, and would have nothing (of course!!) to do with timing.  Heck, even bushing wear could affect all this, and maybe poorly matched magnets...there could be others too???


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#17 Jaeger Team

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:39 AM

 

 

Yeah, apparently there is still some misunderstanding about all this.  If the timing WERE an actual/precise zero advance, the motor would run equally well in either direction.  

I really don't want to make this any more complicated than it needs to be, but there still *could* be reasons why a motor would run "better" in one direction, even if it were perfectly "neutral timed".  For instance, if the brushes had worn with a slight "cock" or "kant" because of how tight or loose the end bell hardware holds them, that could favor running one way or the other, but it could easily be corrected by just changing the brushes, and would have nothing (of course!!) to do with timing.  Heck, even bushing wear could affect all this, and maybe poorly matched magnets...there could be others too???

 

 

What about brush hoods alignment relative to magnets ?


Maurizio Salerno

#18 havlicek

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:06 AM

 

 

What about brush hoods alignment relative to magnets ?

 

 

On motors where they can move around, that could also have an effect Maurizio.


John Havlicek

#19 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:17 PM

I grew up with inline motor slot cars and I've always been baffled in regards to CW/CCW motor direction.

 

Back in the 1960s, when I was building my first inline slot car with stamped chassis, I had no idea where to place the crown gear on the rear axle.

 

A racer was kind enough to assist me by telling me to "see which way the motor ran faster" - and that is how you determine crown gear placement.

 

No mention of CW or CCW direction, probably not wanting to confuse me even more - LOL!

 

I've seen instructions on CCW motors that state "running the motor in the opposite direction will shorten the motor lifespan."

 

So, my question is this:

 

What determines the motor rotation?

 

 

What if one pole is wound one direction, the next pole the opposite direction, and the third pole back to the original direction, shouldn't it run well in either direction?

 

 

 

Ernie

It WAS asked.  High School Physics class answer: will not run.  Try it, prove me and the teacher wrong.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... (for now)
race directing around Chicago-land

USRA 2017 member #404
USSCA  member

Host 2006 ISRA/USA
Great Lakes Slot Car Club member
60+ year pin Racing rail/slot cars in America


#20 havlicek

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:45 PM

Tell you what Larry, while I was not "sure" either way, and personally can't see a reason for even wondering as I can't see anyone doing this, even by mistake, I'll be glad to wind one for you for a discount so we all can see whether it works or not!  Of course, the arm would be of no real world use even if it works, but for a bargain price, you might get a nifty sinker or desk ornament!

 


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John Havlicek

#21 Geary Carrier

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:42 PM

If you use the ole right hand rule something should be different winding one pole backwards, sort of like life, can't wait for the results...


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Yes, to be sure, this is it...






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