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PS4007 has landed!


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#1 swodem

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 01:11 AM

They say timing is everything. Just landed these two beauties, and instead of having time to learn them, tomorrow morning I fly into the bush for a weeks bowhunting... oh well - too many hobbies = good problem to have!!

e6b2571f917fb87bc841e4f2d81a3119.jpg






#2 swodem

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 10:48 PM

So I have had a small amount of time to try the first of these out. Straight out of the bag.
I haven’t done anything to it but solder it in and add a pinion (not in that order)
Oh, and trim the can end shaft as it’s longer.
Initial findings are it’s softer and smoother in power delivery, much like a Falcon 7 or Hawk 7. This is good, as one of the features we initially disliked about the 4002 was it was too harsh and torquey for the low downforce cars like F1.
Doing extremely similar lap times so far.

 

880f59872c0ff6b9ab6e11c396711a35.jpg

 

So far, I’m very happy with the performance parity with the PS4002FK.



#3 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 06:16 AM

Pro Slot really did themselves a huge disservice by putting a seal on this motor. Everyone knows that a stick-on seal offers nothing but false hopes.

 

This motor should have been offered seal-free and if a group or organization wants to pretend that a stick-on seal will prevent any tampering they can seal it themselves with their own stick-on seal and then they can take the full responsibility and criticism that will rightfully be directed solely at them with any legality issues and not at the manufacturer.

 

Bob K.


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#4 swodem

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 08:09 AM

Bob, you can always take the seal off it...

Your organisation doesn’t have to enforce the seal.


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#5 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 09:21 AM

Steve,

Can you put a larger pinion on it and report back?
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

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#6 Slot-Racer

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:57 AM

Curious why they changed the springs with coated ones?


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#7 NSwanberg

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 02:37 AM

Have we come full circle back to almost Puppy Dogs?


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#8 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 04:22 PM

Hot rod puppy dogs with wrap around seals.
 
The motor is a great idea. The seal not so much. There are ways to make that motor tamperproof without the seal. Pro Slot uses aluminum screws to hold the endbell on; they could use those same screws to hold on the brush hardware. JB Weld the endbell on. And JB Weld the screws that hold the endbell in. Then do the same with the screws that hold the brush hardware on. Then take a small drill bit and render the screws inoperable. 
 
The Puppy Dog motors were never the problem. A single person was rightly or wrongly perceived as the problem. If the refurb program would have included just Pro Slot and not also include someone who raced in the series the motor was used in. Well, maybe things would have been different.
 
That is now water under the bridge. Let's not go under that bridge again with tape seals that anyone can get made. We didn't learn from the issues Parma had with sealed Deathstars. That got us sealed Puppy Dogs, and now sealed PS4007s. Please say it isn't so. Forget about seals think tamperproof. 
 
Sorry for venting on your thread. Looking forward to hearing you conclusions about the PS4007's performance.
 
Regards,

GVP


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#9 havlicek

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 07:06 AM

From a disinterested-but-respectful viewpoint, this should all be about the motor and whether or not it's performance and price point make sense

 

The whole "seal" thing is a separate issue, and in general, the "minicans" are a logical step for slot racing, but the "tamper-resistant" "FK" motors also make sense for other reasons. JB Welding the hardware and then mauling the screws might or might not stop some people from cheating, but those would be some time-consuming and therefore costly steps to add to an already costly motor, and there would be no guarantee they would work any better than the stick-on seals.

If the seals offer some comfort, then they are a good thing, but how the motor actually works should be the focus here. No offense intended!


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#10 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 07:56 AM

Initially the 4002FK was to have glue in various places but the glue never came to be.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

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#11 Samiam

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 08:00 AM

If you don't like racing sealed motors... don't!!!


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#12 Zippity

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 08:14 AM

Then there would be no racing!!

Ron Thornton
 

 


#13 Cheater

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 08:52 AM

Or, more accurately, a lot less racing.


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#14 havlicek

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 11:39 AM

Then again, they could always go back to the old Mura "pin tabs." People could still get them out, but at least the manufacturers could take satisfaction in knowing that they caused some frustration and cursing.  ;)  Seriously, they could use tiny one-way screws that are countersunk... that'd fix 'em!


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#15 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 12:46 PM

People who think pintabs should be reintroduced to slot car motors should be hung!  :hang3:


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#16 MSwiss

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 01:36 PM

Hot rod puppy dogs with wrap around seals.
 
The motor is a great idea. The seal not so much. There are ways to make that motor tamperproof without the seal. Pro Slot uses aluminum screws to hold the endbell on; they could use those same screws to hold on the brush hardware. JB Weld the endbell on. And JB Weld the screws that hold the endbell in. Then do the same with the screws that hold the brush hardware on. Then take a small drill bit and render the screws inoperable. 
 
The Puppy Dog motors were never the problem. A single person was rightly or wrongly perceived as the problem. If the refurb program would have included just Pro Slot and not also include someone who raced in the series the motor was used in. Well, maybe things would have been different.
 
That is now water under the bridge. Let's not go under that bridge again with tape seals that anyone can get made. We didn't learn from the issues Parma had with sealed Deathstars. That got us sealed Puppy Dogs, and now sealed PS4007s. Please say it isn't so. Forget about seals think tamperproof. 

 

The problem with the above scenario, if the set-up parts are available, someone determined to cheat will destroy the set-up to get at the arm, and build their cheater motor around it, duplicating all the tamperproof measures.

 

The only way to curtail cheaters is to protest them.

 

In the case of the IRRA®, for those who don't want to "stir things up," an anonymous protest has been available for awhile.

 

In the case of a non-Retro race last weekend, I got to hear the complaining on Sunday about someone's prowess/luck at buying Retro Hawks.

 

I can't do anything about it. :laugh2: They have to complain to the race director.


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Mike Swiss
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#17 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 04:21 PM

Mike,

 

You are not up to speed on current tech. Laser etched codes on the can, colored endbell and endbell hardware for that motor only. All not sold anywhere but that motor. JB Welded can and endbell would have to be destroyed to get them apart.

 

If the manufacture really wanted to keep, you know who out of their motors, they could do it. No seals needed. Hell, a smart manufacture could friction weld a small metal ring to the armature shaft just on the other side of the can bushing just by hold the ring and running the motor at half speed for a bit and still have room for the pinion. Then how is the armature going to be of any use to a cheater? To defeat a cheater you must out think the cheater.

 

You can keep any part of a tamperproof motor from being of any use. You just need to give it some thought and want to solve the problem. So far I see no one wanting to solve the problem. And that is the problem. You, Mike Swiss, willing to use that huge melon of yours to be part of the solution or part of the problem. Quit saying you can't because we can if we only want to bad enough.

 

Regards,

 

Greg VanPeenen



#18 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 04:40 PM

John, 

 

How much would JB Weld cost and how much time would it take to use it on the can endbell and screws.

 

Come on now, how much would it cost to change the dye used in making the endbell and the plating on the hardware and using it only on that motor. How much extra would it cost to use a small drill bit in a hand drill to disable the screws? How much time would it take? I did know so I tested it. I did it in five seconds.

 

John Miller at Pro Slot has an engineering degree. He is a smart guy. I'm am sure a tamper proof motor would not be much of a task for him to figure out.

 

Now its time unhijack and get back to Swedem's thread. And his thoughts on the new Pro Slot motor.

 

Regards,

 

Greg VanPeenen



#19 MSwiss

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 05:22 PM

You are not up to speed on current tech. Laser etched codes on the can, colored end bell and end bell hardware for that motor only. All not sold anywhere but that motor. JB welded can and end bell would have to be destroyed to get them apart.

 

I missed the part about the lasering in your original post.

 

Is there a way to laser something unique?
 

IOW, something someone with another laser can't duplicate.

 

If there is a way, awesome.


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#20 Cheater

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 05:37 PM

GVP,

 

Then I guess the only part of the equation missing is a person willing to put a non-trivial amount of money on the table to make all of what you propose happen.

 

Any volunteers?


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#21 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 08:23 PM

Greg,

 

I have already done the JB Weld and disabled fasteners and I will see if I can find a small steel washer or ring that will press on the motor shaft then friction weld it on. Then I will send it to you and you can see if you can get it apart, LMAO  If I really need to I could probably dye a white Hawk 6 endbell just to prove it can be done. 

 

And for Swiss you IRRA® guys depend on laser etching to tell the many different Hawk Retros apart. I guess someone could match that laser work on an Ink stamped Hawk Retro. I know a guy that has lots of those left. If laser etching is good enough for you guys it's good enough for me. LMAO.

 

Come on people use those heads for something other then hat racks. A tamperproof motor should not be that hard to come up with. Even if we be dealing with the best cheaters in the world.

 

I really don't think the manufacturers would want a tamperproof motor. Racers always seem to need something to blame when they lose. It was the track. or the lane was screwed up. Or the big one the guy who beat me must be cheating because his car was faster then mine. If we made them come up with tamperproof motors then they would be held accountable for their motors not all performing the same. Something a few people and all the manufacturers know is not possible. They just don't want to take the heat.

 

The JK Hawk Retro is the nearest thing to a tamperproof motor that we have and look at the crap that gay has taken over unequal performance. And the fact that some clown calling himself Kenny O is taking them apart and cheating them up. If he can do it so can anybody else. The end cap on those motors should have been welded or epoxied on and the windows in the cans should have been left small. If you can see the comm you can figure out a way to grab it and twist it. When is the last time you saw anybody look at one of those motors close and check where the comm slot was in tech. Really when.      

 

Regards,

 

GVP   


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#22 Samiam

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 01:02 AM

There are already plenty of $12-13 motors that are sealed up(closed can). Hawk Retros, 7s, Falcons, etc. No need for a $50 one.  


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#23 havlicek

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 05:55 AM

How much would JB Weld cost and how much time would it take to use it on the can endbell and screws.

 
I don't know, Greg... but it would definitely cost something, and the point I was trying to make was that the motor already costs a surprisingly lot for what it is. Someone somewhere (presumably not the factory in China) would have to do this to the motors before packaging them. I'm sure there are other better ways to "tamperproof" motors, but the seal tape is a fairly easy cheap and "kind of" effective way to have at it.  
 

Now its time unhijack and get back to Swedem's thread. And his thoughts on the new Pro Slot motor.

 
Agreed, and that was my main reason for posting in the first place.


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#24 Cheater

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 08:13 AM

When is the last time you saw anybody look at one of those motors close and check where the comm slot was in tech.


Funny you should ask. While I wasn't able to see if it was used, at the last Retro race I attended there was a handheld borescope with a very small tip on the table with the other tech tools.

Your points are all well taken, but IRRA® has to work with what 'is,' not with what 'could be.' 

Wonder how many here have, like me, never heard of Mary Kay Ash. But I have heard her saying many times.

"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who implement them are priceless."


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#25 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 12:06 PM

All this because: "A single person was rightly or wrongly perceived as the problem."

 

And what is the problem with this solution?: If the refurb program would have included just Pro Slot and not also include someone who raced in the series the motor was used in. Well, maybe things would have been different.

 

Seems like a lot of effort to prevent one bad apple from cheating, why not just ban the bad apple from refurbishing and racing? Seriously I've seen track owners do this to racers even if they had not done anything other than just not being liked by the track owner, it happened to me, on another occasion three of the AZ Phoenix guys (one was me) were actually assaulted by the track locals and run out after finishing 1-2-3 at one of their races in Tucson. I wanted to call the police but our driver who was actually struck and had his shirt ripped off decided we should just leave as there were more locals than us and the numbers just were not in our favor.

 

Not trying to stir up a lynch mob but has the suspect had a good talking to about taking the fun out of racing? if this post needs PC'ing please do so as I'm just an old Arizonan that grew up in a tough barrio where no one ever heard of PC.

 

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