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The FC280, settling into a rhythm


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 06:37 AM

After a while doing a motor, especially one that requires more work to convert it to a more slot-car appropriate form like the FC280, you start to fall into a method that works.  Being one of the more useful general/industrial/automotive motors (as are the various fk motors) for converting to slots, the FC 280 needs modifying for a proper end bell, some can cutouts, holes to mount the end bell and to mount the motor to a chassis.  The stock can bushing is fine, but there's always the option to add a bearing as well.  

This motor is headed for a paint finish, so I took the extra steps to fill in the various holes with JB Weld and sand those smooth.  The stock armature blank in this case is fine, but some of these have a knurled shaft, so I just stripped the bazillion turns of hair-fine wire, tossed the nylon stack-end insulators, removed three lams and will powder coat it and add a better com.  I'm pretty far into building the setup on this one, and I'm going to raise the "temperature" when I wind the arm.  Reinstalling the magnets in these things after conversion was a little bit of a head-scratcher, but that's been worked out...although I DID do a test-fit just to make sure I don't run into any "UH OH!" moments later on.  :D

Of course, the open end and the bushing end of the can got milled to flatten/true them, and both the top and bottom flats, as well as the radiused sides got the treatment also.  Not because they "needed" that to work, but just onnacounta I'm funny that way.

IMG_2740.JPG IMG_2738.JPG IMG_2739.JPG


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#2 brucefl

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:07 PM

John it seems that koford sells epoxy on their professional side,and since they tout the highest temp epoxy for coating the windings in the industry it sound exciting,the epoxies i saw listed were reasonably priced,but i did not see the super high temp one listed ,so I wrote to stuart to see if he would sell the one he mentions in his catalogue that he uses for his armatures to me,Ill let you know if you are interested,it certainly would be superior to 4601 or whatever # youre using.


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#3 Dallas Racer

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:24 PM

In the mid '80s I wound a couple of RC car arms. There was a motor rewind/repair shop near me. They sold me a glass jar of one-part something and it worked great. It was kind of thick, but when you brushed it on a preheated arm, it immediately thinned and sucked into the windings. After cooking it, the windings were shiny as glass with zero air bubbles. I even put several layers on one, thinking filling the gap would reduce air drag. Stupid idea, but man, that arm was beautiful. Looked like a thick glass coating.

 

It might be worth calling some local motor repair shops. 


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#4 havlicek

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 05:23 AM

Hi Guys,

     I'm not sure about why the sudden ideas about epoxy, but the 4461 I use is as good as it needs to be.  The Koford epoxy is certainly a good material also, but I've been down this road before years ago, and Koford doesn't sell his armature epoxy.

1)  4461 is good to 500F.  For an armature to reach that temp, the commutator would be significantly hotter.  All kinds of other motor parts would have failed long before reaching those temps.

2)  Glass hard is good Phil, but not necessarily what we need for armatures.  Many epoxies, including the regular hardware store stuff like "Devcon" will get that hard.  They will also thin out on a warm armature and run well into the coils, but it's a rare thing for motors to be run as fast and get as warm as slot car motors do.  For example I know for sure that Dremel armatures will smoke at far lower temperatures, and they only top out at 20K RPMs.  :)


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#5 havlicek

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 06:42 AM

So I wanted to use the "anodized" effect paint, and thought the transparency of those might look distracting with the epoxy filler in the can holes, so I darkened it by shooting purple and then overspraying red.  I wound up with a sort of "wine" colored finish that I think looks pretty spiffy.  Here's the setup with the magnets reinstalled and the arm blank in there.  The can also got a bearing in this case.

IMG_2741.JPG


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#6 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 07:36 AM

Correct stu wont sell,but masterbond co. has a single component encapsulating epoxy EP17HT-LO and is reasonably priced and in 3 sizes,and can be bought on amazon as well as through their wensite,and it works up to 650f,thats the highest temp epoxy that i can find on the market that doesnt have a filler like aluminum particles.

 

Jim Greenaway used a single component epoxy and it seems like he would apply it in a vacuum environment.


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#7 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 07:44 AM

Hi Guys,

     I'm not sure about why the sudden ideas about epoxy, but the 4461 I use is as good as it needs to be.  The Koford epoxy is certainly a good material also, but I've been down this road before years ago, and Koford doesn't sell his armature epoxy.

1)  4461 is good to 500F.  For an armature to reach that temp, the commutator would be significantly hotter.  All kinds of other motor parts would have failed long before reaching those temps.

2)  Glass hard is good Phil, but not necessarily what we need for armatures.  Many epoxies, including the regular hardware store stuff like "Devcon" will get that hard.  They will also thin out on a warm armature and run well into the coils, but it's a rare thing for motors to be run as fast and get as warm as slot car motors do.  For example I know for sure that Dremel armatures will smoke at far lower temperatures, and they only top out at 20K RPMs.  :)I believe its less expensive,and no mixing,higher temp 650f,masterbond company.If it works for you,great.Happy winding.


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#8 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 07:47 AM

John are you becoming the modern day Bill Steube sr.master motor man?


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#9 havlicek

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 07:48 AM

Hi Bruce,

     This all really belongs in a separate thread, but like I said, I've been down this road many many times before here and done the homework.  The information about Koford is besides the point, because they don't sell their armature potting epoxy.  The Masterbond material is not applicable, and reading the specifications is always important.  Besides other significant issues, the cure schedule alone makes it a non-starter.  Here's a copy/paste from their website:

"EP17HT-LO is 100% reactive and contains no solvents or diluents. EP17HT-LO bonds well to similar as well as dissimilar substrates such as metal, ceramics, plastics and composites. It resists many chemicals such as acids, bases, salts, fuels, oils and many solvents. Shrinkage upon cure is minimal. It is serviceable from -80°F to +650°F. This system is tan in color. EP17HT-LO retains its exceptional electrical insulation properties, even at higher temperatures. It should be noted, in order to obtain the optimum properties, a post cure of 2-12 hours at 350°F is recommended. As mentioned above, EP17HT-LO meets NASA low outgassing specifications. It is widely used in a variety of applications in the aerospace, oil and chemical processing, optical, optoelectronic and specialty OEM industries."

 

Trust me when I say that I've looked long and hard at all this!  :)


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#10 havlicek

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 07:50 AM

John are you becoming the modern day Bill Steube sr.master motor man?

 

Not even close Bruce.  All I am is a modern day "John Havlicek"  ;)


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#11 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 08:29 AM

Your a humble guy John but thats what makes you special,and in time you will be where Steube was,especially if we can restore a nastalgia group which will let us do like we did in the past where we bought arms and motors from greenaway,steube,kean,etc.etc.chassis from tonyp,emott,etc.etc.and get back to the ma & pa of slotcars


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#12 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 09:50 AM

Your a humble guy John but thats what makes you special,and in time you will be where Steube was,especially if we can restore a nastalgia group which will let us do like we did in the past where we bought arms and motors from greenaway,steube,kean,etc.etc.chassis from tonyp,emott,etc.etc.and get back to the ma & pa of slotcars

 

Call me crazy, but how is this different from buying arms from Koford, Proslot, or Valiko and then using chassis from Horky, Recek, AB Slotsport, and so on?

Eurosport racing exists and is oddly enough wickedly popular. 


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#13 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 10:40 AM

Greenaway,steube,were individuals selling their wares,like John is,its their labor of love just like an artist each winding is painstakingly laid down a little bit of their soul goes into it,most if not all the ones you mentioned are manufacturers they can't afford to keep it as an art it only about business,that's what killed the hobby, (Walmart or ma&pa),the hobby is a hobby because of the semblance of diy,grassroots level to instill in us skills and grow in various ways,and a sort of bartering of talents is still within the realm of diy,if my speciality is chassis and yours motors we find a call abortion to make things work,we can trade/barter or pay each other nothing is for free.obviously some manufacturing is needed for raw supplies but what's happening are monopolies,and we're left with only who's the best driver.go figure.

Example modeling you don't pay someone to put your model together that defeats the purpose of the hobby,now I think you got it with this example.

That's what slot cars were supposed to be beyond the basic car,like bodybuilders professionals take drugs to win and get contracts that's not how it should be,as in and human endeavour,strive to be all you can be with what G d gave you everything else cheats nature.
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#14 Dallas Racer

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 10:57 AM

2)  Glass hard is good Phil, but not necessarily what we need for armatures.  Many epoxies, including the regular hardware store stuff like "Devcon" will get that hard.  They will also thin out on a warm armature and run well into the coils, but it's a rare thing for motors to be run as fast and get as warm as slot car motors do.  For example I know for sure that Dremel armatures will smoke at far lower temperatures, and they only top out at 20K RPMs.  :)

 

John, I don't know how hard it was, it just looked liked glass.

 

And I wasn't implying you needed to do anything differently. Your arms look great!  :good:


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#15 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 11:08 AM

I would absolutely love for you to tell Valiko or Koford that their Eurosport or Open arms aren't works of art. Or any of the topline GT12/Eurosport or even Model Car category racers that their chassis aren't as if not MORE creative than the jail door chassis of yore. 

Times change. Progress happens. To quote Enzo Ferrari on the question of his favorite car, "The next one."


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#16 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 11:15 AM

Amen


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#17 havlicek

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 11:33 AM

Here's the deal the way I see it.  The Steube/Greenaway/Green and other great winders from back in those days got their reputations by making armatures at such a high level when it wasn't "normal".  Those guys (and guys like Koford...I don't mean to leave anyone out of all this) raised the bar and brought slot car armatures and motors to a place it hadn't been before....and those days will never be repeated.  NOW, making arms includes the expectations of a level of quality that is already baked into the cake.  I see armatures all the time that look great to me, and I'm sure that both hand wound and CNC arms today are easily "there" with the old ones, and even better in terms of materials available.  The shafts, lams, powder coat, commutators, epoxy...even the magnet wire itself have all improved significantly.  So, the old winders' work stands out still, because of both the craftsmanship and the innovation involved.  I'm just another Bozo trying to keep up, but it does bear repeating that the actual "winding" part is not the hardest part of making armatures...it's all the "other stuff"!


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#18 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 01:19 PM

But fundamentally its a hobby that we become a part of to create with our own hands inorder to pit our own selves against others all growing in our skill level and building both competitive cars and self esteem and accomplishment on the road to building better individuals and in the case of the adult hobbyist applying our life learned skills and also tweeking our skills.

 

Now if slotcars is to be the elitists activity only,so the few privileged wealthy can compete and afford to hire all the best craftsmen to build and assemble their cars then they might aswell hire the best drivers to race their cars,then its truly like nascar or horse racing,thats great but I wouldnt want to be part of it,like most of us we need to be participants and not just team owners like in 1/1racing,so with this said maybe this is the fork in the road and I would never choose to be just a spectator nor most of us,but weve been delegated this position by the monopolies,In 1/1 racing im happy being a spectator,not slots,so maybe there should be the do somethings creating and proving what they created is competitive and the do nothings who pay others to create everything and just race, in slotcars.


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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 01:25 PM

Bruce,

Your post is wrought with irony.

 

You are the guy who bought a Roy Wong sidewinder, instead of creating one yourself.

 

People will respect you more if you made a poor copy, vs. trying to "inspire" others, to build a great one for you.


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#20 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 01:43 PM

I had one created so I could have an example when I am finally situated to build and inspire others to build,but it was constructed wrong,i created a drawing from memory,so once Fred correnti met Roy and saw the actual chassis then the design was seen and could possibly be recreated by someone who was capable,then the original copy could be used as the ,master,that the story mike in a nutshell,does that shed some better light,Im not a designer like Bob emott and I admit it.Although Ive become a fairly good artist and was able to make a pretty drawing of what I remembered of the chassis,although I had not remembered how Roy designed the motor box in the 1 inch space.


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#21 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 01:44 PM

31945945_10210965215903313_4207174118610

 

This takes talent and artistry to create. 

 

31582482_10151569277979999_2944649270562

 

This takes talent and artistry to create. 

Every time you offer the tremulous claim that craftsmanship, engineering, ingenuity, and all-around mechanical brilliance left this hobby with the passing of the vintage greats I will stand in awe of the categories of racing that still demand such brilliance and LAUGH AT YOU for being so desperately wrong. 


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#22 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 01:45 PM

but fred hasnt chimed in with the details of the motor box design and Roy is not responding to our inquirey for photos atleast so far.


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#23 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 02:01 PM

Justin my point is that its a hobby not a profession although there manufacturers unlike other hobbies the manufacturers mostly give its participants supplies to build it themselves,here the manufactirers have taken over and eliminated a hobbies whole purpose DIY for theirbself serving interests,If you check history with slotcars when it was primarilly DIY the hobby was booming,now its gone the way of the dinosaurs in comparison.

 

And of course theres true artists out there,but in the day everyone was an artist.

 

in a race of 100 cars there was 100 different chassis configurations,usually created by the racer or one of the local builders.

 

but remember today there are few tracks as opposed to 100s of tracks in the day.


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#24 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 02:13 PM

No. In the day everyone was not an artist. Every kid knocking down the walls at his local track with the latest from Cox, Classic, Revell, Strombecker, Russkit, or any of the DOZENS of MANUFACTURERS was not an artist. They were some kid who bought a slot car. 

The number of "artists" to participants in the hobby was one in every few thousand, and guess what? That ratio has not changed now! It's just that there were that many more thousands participating in the hobby that long ago. 

 

Heck, you want to see what sort of creativity is out there now? Look at the explosion of 3D printed chassis from groups like Olifer being produced to cure the handling deficiencies of 1/32nd scale cars. It takes an amazing amount of ability to create something in a CAD program and then turn it into an actual object. 

But then, you're so obsessed with some idler car from the 60's that the builder themselves disregarded BECAUSE IT WAS NOT A WINNING DESIGN that you would never understand that the world left you by.


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#25 brucefl

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 02:22 PM

perhaps its gone the way of plastic models,where we re expected to assemble a basically snap together kit,the ingenuity factor has been eliminated for commercialism,and the Roy Wongs and Bob emotts of the future will never be developed,by means of this hobby(only creatvity is the manufacturers designers,or the old timers like tonyp and a few old timers who dreamt about building in the day and are building now,i can count them on my 2hands,but what about that 10year old who wishes he could become that tonyp and is discouraged because its already done for him(i was that 10year old who started to build chassis for myself until i was discouraged by the track owner because he said he wouldnt let me run my own self built chassis,because he didnt want to damage the track,so what was left to buy the local builders chassis,that was the beginning of the end of runbwhat you brung)

 

dont you agree its about inspiring the youth to be creative and build skills trial and error and through that enjoy the hobby and improve and build confidence and give the a healthy constructive outlet,as well as give us oldsters fun to but not at the expese of it future and the future it give our youth,just like boyscouts,its for developing good character,for the fathers its to give good guidance and role models,an it was that for me,it kept me off the streets and bad influences and the older racers were good role models.


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