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Regarding the Chicagoland low CG guide flag


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#1 Taylor Davis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 06:26 PM

First, I want to say that I appreciate Mike Swiss' efforts on new, and innovative solutions to making a better mousetrap, and I think this guide flag can be useful in other areas of the hobby. Such as scale and wing cars.

I say that to say this, I don't feel this guide flag is beneficial to the IRRA® Retro community, because It has the potential to obsolete all other guide flags, and, IMO, does not conform to the mission statement regarding "creating a rule structure that is cost effective to the racers and raceways."

I started this thread due to a couple other complaints from various people in the Retro hobby, and I welcome an open discussion regarding this topic. So what does everyone think?






#2 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 06:35 PM

 IMO, does not conform to the mission statement regarding "creating a rule structure that is cost effective to the racers and raceways."

 

I've had this discussion with a few other people.

 

I don't see this as an item that will catch on in Retro.

 

Regardless, where was the outrage when $9.95 front axles came out, obsoleting 15 cents worth of 3/32" K & S piano wire?

 

How about when we went from $2.25 guides to $5.50 guides that were hard to thread?

 

I have a million things to do here, at the raceway, including finishing a drag strip, so it wouldn't hurt my feelings if the IRRA® banned them, but I would be upset if it was hypocritical.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#3 Taylor Davis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 06:45 PM

Regardless, where was the outrage when 9.95 front axles came out, obsoleting 15 cents worth of 3/32" K & S piano wire?
 
How about when we went from 2.25 guides, to 5.50 guides, that were hard to thread?


No outrage here, just a simple discussion.

#4 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 06:49 PM

So why didn't you complain about $9.95 axles?

If Zud Zartos comes out with a real awesome $225 Retro chassis, with a bunch of fancy bends, that only Zud can easily accomplish, will you start a discussion on banning it?
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#5 Taylor Davis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 06:52 PM

Because they have absolutely no benefit to speed...


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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 06:56 PM

So being 66 X more expensive doesn't  breech "cost effective to the racers".

 

Believe me, I get what you are getting at.

 

I'm just not a fan of hypocrisy.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#7 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 06:58 PM

They only cost a few $...

And you can do it yourself with better effect and strength with a drill bit, lead, and epoxy.
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#8 Pablo

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:03 PM

Show me where the maker of the product targeted it towards IRRA® Racing.

You can't, because he didn't. He didn't even imply it.

 

This is something you made up, Taylor.


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#9 Taylor Davis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:06 PM

Mike, you can name call all you want, you're not going to hurt my feelings, but as a stated before in my first post, I'm not the only one with this opinion. I am simply the one bringing it to light. I just don't see the benefit in the Retro world, that's all.


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#10 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:09 PM

They only cost a few $...

And you can do it yourself with better effect and strength with a drill bit, lead, and epoxy.

 

If you are drilling, right to left, and are having the lead exposed to the side of the slot, I wouldn't count on the car performing the same, or staying intact.

 

When guys used Koford M223 flat head screws in the sides of guide blades, because of the blade wear on new tracks, they came out all the time, and they were countersunk and threaded in.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#11 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:12 PM

Mike, you can name call all you want, your not going to hurt my feelings, but as a stated before in my first post. I'm not the only one with this opinion. I am simply the one bringing it to light. I just don't see the benefit in the Retro world, that's all.

 

A - I didn't call you any names.

 

B - You didn't answer my question about the threaded axles being 66 times the price of what was used before.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#12 Racer36

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:30 PM

First, I want to say that I appreciate Mike Swiss' efforts on new, and innovative solutions to making a better mousetrap, and I think this guide flag can be useful in other areas of the hobby. Such as scale and wing cars.
I say that to say this, I don't feel this guide flag is beneficial to the IRRA® Retro community, because It has the potential to obsolete all other guide flags, and, IMO, does not conform to the mission statement regarding "creating a rule structure that is cost effective to the racers and raceways."
I started this thread due to a couple other complaints from various people in the Retro hobby, and I welcome an open discussion regarding this topic. So what does everyone think?

I think this is an absolutely unnecessary thread and only serves to stir up drama. If you think this guide may hold an unfair advantage, then bring it to the attention of the IRRA BOD. I see no benefit whatsoever to airing this here.
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#13 Taylor Davis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:32 PM

I did, and was advised to post it.

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#14 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:37 PM

Any talk of banning $1,200 Czech controllers?


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#15 Taylor Davis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:39 PM

Actually yea, just not publicly.

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#16 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:53 PM

You can go public. LOL

 

I'm still waiting for some legitimate discussion for allowing an axle 6,600% (66 X) more expensive, but not a guide that's only 21% (1.21 X )  more.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#17 Taylor Davis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:55 PM

I did, there is only a convenience advantage and no potential performance advantage.



#18 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 08:09 PM

So you are for banning future new chassis designs that perform better than existing designs?


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#19 havlicek

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:29 PM

Boy, sometimes I just don't get modern slot racing.  People will (apparently) buy a $40 motor that's just like the $14 motor...but *might* be more reliable (*and some no doubt will buy a bunch of them...there goes that "affordable and equal playing field").  People get all twitchy when the $14 motor doesn't (sometimes) perform like a $100 motor...but will spend hundreds of dollars (or more) on a controller and blast through loads more on tires.  People get all nervous about even the appearance of innovation, even if it *might* make for a better mousetrap.  People pony-up for slow motors that have tape on them so everyone starts out "equal"...then they raise the track voltage to make the slow motors go faster at the expense of reliability and longevity.

Best thing to do would be to either try the guide and see if it drops your lap times consistently or not...maybe use it as inspiration for an even better guide, instead of trying to squash it.


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#20 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:44 PM

First, I want to say that I appreciate Mike Swiss' efforts on new, and innovative solutions to making a better mousetrap, and I think this guide flag can be useful in other areas of the hobby. Such as scale and wing cars.

I say that to say this, I don't feel this guide flag is beneficial to the IRRA® Retro community, because It has the potential to obsolete all other guide flags, and, IMO, does not conform to the mission statement regarding "creating a rule structure that is cost effective to the racers and raceways."

I started this thread due to a couple other complaints from various people in the Retro hobby, and I welcome an open discussion regarding this topic. So what does everyone think?

 

     I am going to ask a lot of the SCRRA racers at Buena Park Raceway tomorrow what they think regarding this. The few I spoke to had mixed feelings as the SCRRA has generally kept the rules to a minimum and pretty much allowed racers the freedom to modify parts such as gear lightening and this is really no different.

     Lately however, a few racers (myself included) have become just a bit tired with all the little motor issues and all the different guides and modifications and a lot of money being spent on all kinds of stuff that becomes obsolete overnight and now having to reposition or change bodies because the guides foul......

 

    I know all this is the nature of racing in just about any form and I really don't know exactly what to do about it in Retro to keep it simple and keep everyone coming back...........

 

    I'll get back to Slotblog ASAP when I have a chance to see what a lot of the BPR racers think!  :)


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#21 Jason Holmes

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:51 PM

Taylor 

 

I have one ? when you did your many hours of testing how mush faster was this Guide Flag over the ones you tested it against and the head to head test of this one and the non brass enhanced Graphite model

 

jason



#22 MSwiss

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:14 PM

SCRRA has generally kept the rules to a minimum and pretty much allowed racers the freedom to modify parts such as gear lightening and this is really no different.

 Bryan,

Yes, this is really no different.

 

Just curious.

 

How much did you pay for the machinery to make the crown gear on the below car?

 

A $40 Harbor Freight lathe and a $20 HFdrill press? :laugh2:

 

post-646-0-05750300-1525303333.jpg


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#23 Jay Guard

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:37 PM

You can go public. LOL

 

I'm still waiting for some legitimate discussion for allowing an axle 6,600% (66 X) more expensive, but not a guide that's only 21% (1.21 X )  more.

 

Quote Taylor Davis:  "I did, there is only a convenience advantage and no potential performance advantage."

 

​There's your answer Mike, there is NO further discussion required.  A 15 cent axle performs EXACTLY as well as a 10 dollar Bartos axle, it's ONLY a issue of convenience NOT performance.  You really need to drop this line of reasoning, it's not applicable.

 

.


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#24 Jay Guard

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:41 PM

I think this is an absolutely unnecessary thread and only serves to stir up drama. If you think this guide may hold an unfair advantage, then bring it to the attention of the IRRA BOD. I see no benefit whatsoever to airing this here.

Trust me, it has been.  BTW, Mike Swiss is a BoD member but he's not he only BoD member aware of this question.


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#25 Jay Guard

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:06 PM

Taylor 

 

I have one ? when you did your many hours of testing how mush faster was this Guide Flag over the ones you tested it against and the head to head test of this one and the non brass enhanced Graphite model

 

jason

Jason:

If the guide is better then it kind of proves the point that everyone will have to have many more of these more expensive guides due to the performance advantage.  This is the problem, things like this are just making Retro racing more expensive just to gain a small performance advantage.

If the guide isn't faster than why allow it as there will be a bunch of racers that go out and buy an expensive guide only to find out it's no advantage.  Seems like the smart thing to do here is to disallow the guide (in Retro Only) and avoid both of the problems.

 

We aren't trying to ban the guide in all forms of racing, just trying to keep the spirit of Retro in place.  I'm sure Flexi and Wing guys will snap these things up as fast as Mike can make them.


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