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Formula for winding motors, chassis building, gearing?


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#1 brucefl

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 07:19 PM

Help explain:what advance,wire choice/#of winds,type of magnets 2 to 32 mag,air gap,can sellection,chassis design,for each track and power supply amperage/voltage.

 

There are formulas for the gearing,what are all the formulas for scratch building a car to race on different tracks,its not just random,OR IS IT TOP SECRET!!!!!


Bruce Schwartz




#2 Mike Patterson

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 09:31 PM

Bruce, have you tried searching the archives here on Slotblog?


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#3 brucefl

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 09:59 PM

i only remember someone going over gearing and it was in the stratosphere.

 

how to put in the search bar to get results on all the aspects of figuring out what windvto do how much advance,magnets,and how to design the chassis around the track?


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#4 SlotStox#53

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 11:54 PM

I'm pretty sure it's down to design & test/race and then rinse & repeat.

There's no :wizard: formula that you're asking for.. at least I don't think so :laugh2:

If you're racing spec or sealed motors then that's the wind & magnet out of the equation. Spec chassis? Again, that's out .. Or a build one if allowed.

Stiffer chassis for flat tracks and more flex for Kings etc?? At least that's what I vaguely remember reading on here?

#5 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 12:14 AM

Most racing classes have specific rules on legal chassis and motor design and most classes are standardized arm winds and specific number and style of magnets.  Only the flat track 'Eurosport' classes and cobalt groups 27 and 7 in wing cars allow multiple magnet segments.  Reliability and good driving FIRST, then exotic technology.


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#6 brucefl

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:20 AM

OK if building a Emott Era car,the mention of what wind and advance for armature there was,the amperage and voltage was taken into concideration,then they only had blue dot mags,air gap I don't remember what was used,then you had chassis design again since I'm not the engineer here I have no clue and I'm supposing there was the magic sause,such as based on a particular track even if it was a blue king each track varied and movement of the plumber varied and weight cutouts in various area based on the handling of the track and placement of lead,so this is what I'm asking about and gearing to all this is critical for when you start your scratch building.

And with group 7 today too,why use 24 magnets vs 32 magnets and same questions about the motor and gearing etc etc so does everybody understand what I looking for as far as info.,I tried looking in the archives here and it wasn't helping me.

But I remember one of the super knowledgeable old timers here going into gearing and it was so complex like an engineer was explaining,pitch was mentioned and that was easier discussion so there is this level of understanding in scratch building,hopefully you guys won't tell me what Stuart koford tells me,that it's a trade secret and he won't tell because he doesn't want to help the competition.

There's gotta be someone like Mike Steuben or Tonyp perhaps who can enlighten us with their golden drops of wisdom,we're all waiting anxiously from you guys,you guys can open that magical door to the dimension of slot car building that we all are neglecting and this can unleash amazing success and creativity.

And don't tell me it doesn't exist because I know it does I've heard various things from the pro builders in the day,but a 10 year old hearing bits and pieces here and there I couldn't put it together,but now I want to,because random building doesn't help to make you build smart and effective cars,you could spend 10 years learning this.

Hey phillipe must know all this or who to ask.
Bruce Schwartz

#7 Don Weaver

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 10:58 AM

.....because random building doesn't help to make you build smart and effective cars,you could spend 10 years learning this.

 

Which any good builder, winder, painter, driver, etc. has done in order to learn what works for him.  There ain't no short cuts or ready made answers :dash2:


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#8 slotcarone

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 12:49 PM

Bruce I am curious as to why it is so important to know this?
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#9 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 12:57 PM

Ask us very specific questions and we will do our best to share our results.

I could answer your question by writing a very incomplete book and the bottom line would still be "it depends"
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#10 brucefl

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 03:38 PM

Mike now that I'm getting geared up to start building again,so that I can eventually teach others,understanding what seems to have been common knowledge for Bob Emott and Jim green away when they built my cars,I'm in the dark about,and when John Havlicek winds an armature he's constantly talking about comments advancement without explaining it's value,and as I pick and pick I start to see some purpose/value but still I'm clueless.

If you are building not knowing what you are doing is like a waste of time.

Would you want me to put a filling in your tooth just because I can,no would be any bodies answer.

Unless I know why I'm doing each step and what the options are in the build then am I accomplishing anything of value,no.

Well when the gearing formula has been brought it was definitely following a logical path,but understanding the components that make up the formula is necessary for you to first of all plug in the correct info in each side of the formula then you can arrive at a solution to the equation.

1.group 7 (Emott Era and current era)
How/why wire size for armature,why/advance to select for commutator (what effects are given and why the options should be chosen for what track/power supply is being used,let's say modern blue king with optimum power. (Goal should be to drive fastest with control and consistency and to last for the race/maybe for qualifying time as a separate issue,if rules allow changing motor etc between the race and qualifying lap.also magnets and air gap too.

2.chassis designs (Emott Era saw 100s of different designs in the same race.

3.Gear selection. (Top end effect or low end effect wanted and why/how to attain.is driving style a factor along with power supply,glue no glue,tire type quality?

What else can I say,is it a matter of trial and error,and going through all the possible combinations?

But the mathematical number of combinations could be infinite possibly,

Wire size increases current as you go up in size which should increase rpms and speed,but what does commutator advance or retarding do effect tourque?
And Magnet strength increases braking if magnets are increased in their strength or reducing air gap space I believe,as well controllers have variable braking potentiometer,am I correct?

And driving ability and style to is reliant on these combinations too I suppose to not exceed the drivers abilities.

Am I on the right path?

Also some builders said that double winds allowed for better control too supposedly,why exactly if it's true I don't know,so I'd like to separate fact from fiction and be able to build to suit the individual and the individual conditions.

4.how to select a chassis design for the track too,why this get cutout here or there and lead here or there etc etc

I'm sure I can follow some standards commonly used (24s or 24.5s wire size modern group 7,in the day 24s or 27 double).

OK who can verify my minimal knowledge and whether right or wrong and help me tweak my knowlede,add or subtract.

So I hoping callaboratively we can lay down some good parameters for me and others taking this journey.

Thanks.
Bruce Schwartz

#11 MSwiss

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 03:57 PM

Bruce,

 

Everyone's cheering for you to accomplish all the wonderful things you have posted about, but you have to quit worrying about the endless minutia.

 

None of that matters until you get something started on a jig.


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#12 Mattb

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 06:47 PM

The accomplishment is not in doing what somebody did 50 years ago.   The accomplishment is teaching someone very basic understanding of how a dc motor works.   How a chassis runs better with lower weight (COG) and some flexibility.   Just teaching someone how to put together an H&R brass chassis, set it up and successfully mount a body is a great accomplishment.  Teaching somebody with no basic knowledge how to build a car cloned from something in 1970 and how to wind and set up a motor is pretty much impossible.   You have pretty much said you can't do it and have paid and offered to pay for other people to build for you.   To think you can now teach this is kind of silly if you can't do it yourself.
 
I still say if your goal is to teach young people some sense of satisfaction with hands on work and skills you need to get basic cars and just go to the track and teach basics. 
 
Don't try to go to the moon.   It looks like you may never get there anyway.
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#13 brucefl

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 10:49 PM

Matt whether you are right or wrong as to whether i do the physical work or not is neither here nor there,if i want to do the research and compile the knowledge that is 80% of the job,i did build as a 10 year old and wound arms had thorp balance and cut comm,and epoxied,then setup and raced my scratch built cars until bernie from glen oaks stopped us younger scratchbuilders from even racing our cars on his track for the excuse that we would ruin his track.

 

ive purchased all my tools and supplies to do all the work,but want to know what i need to know to build inteligently,and im struggling with some beauracracies where i live inorder to get this project started and setup the infrastructure for a sound operation that will be taken seriously,so through the process of this struggle my therapy is compiling the unwritten instructions,and perhaps somebody needs to write that book.or pamphlets so children can have something to walk them through things,magazines used to do that to some degree,now theres this site,which maybe should have something like this archived for anybody to learn just like you can go to youtube to figure out how to do just about anything except this(although tonyp did a series of d3 chassis building,so maybe someone will step up to the plate and a series of how to  for what i want in my library.

 

if im doing a procedure in dentistry iv always got reference materials to review.

 

so im picking brains until ive got the missing info to compile all the reference material i need and future students need to help them,but this is as important as doing ,that is the research of how to and why to.


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#14 brucefl

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 10:59 PM

Bruce,

Everyone's cheering for you to accomplish all the wonderful things you have posted about, but you have to quit worrying about the endless minutia.

 

None of that matters until you get something started on a jig.

mike i appreciate your kindness eventhough i sound like the ultimate procrastinator.

 

you could probably shed some light on things for the naysayers about how truly long it took you from the dream of setting up a raceway and getting to the point of actually opening up the doors for business(unless you took over an existing busines,but starting from scratch is a pisser,an could take years,and especially if you are managing a different profession full time.(does that clarify things better).


Bruce Schwartz

#15 havlicek

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 06:47 AM

Bruce,

     While I support anything that supports slots and the history of slots, there's an important aspect to all this I think is getting lost.  Back when any now-famous builder, winder, racer was doing this' they did what they did by trial and error.  They had to continually push the limit and find the balance between winning and...er..."smoke" or bent piano wire or both.  The same thing is of course happening right now, albeit more in the "non-sealed-motor" type classes, but still.

     As has been said above, you could spend a long time writing a very thick, and still incomplete book about all the things you're asking, but none of that is necessary.  ***Any car/motor being built to recreate an old classic will almost NEVER be raced in anger.  You don't need the equivalent of a graduate degree in physics to do this stuff, as it's already been done.  So if you want to build "an Emmot" or "Tony P" or the like with a "Steube" or a "Green" supplying the "oomph", you just copy the details as they have been mostly documented right here.  Rick Thigpen, Steve  Okeefe, Pablo, Jairus etc.  have spent a lot of time pointing the way...with pictures and long discussions to boot!  :)  Others have shown pictures of eBay and other vintage finds; it's all here.

     If you want to become expert at building, winding, painting just for your own edification, that's all good...but you just start doing it and failing, then succeeding little by little...there is no other way.  If you want to build and recreate, others have already done the hard work to show you how.  Your builds will never be raced anyway.

***BTW, there's one last detail.  Even when the classic cars/motors WERE raced, any of the old racers will tell you that, what succeeded on one track would often fail on another.  So even the details they "worked out" (chassis, gearing, motor, body etc.) could change on a daily or at least weekly basis!  So, have fun and get to building!


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#16 Pablo

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:17 AM

Reminds me of the old joke about "Is there a God"?

All the world's smartest people got together and built a supercomputer, big as a factory.

Programmed it for 2 years with all the known facts of the planet.

 

Finally the big day comes, and the builders typed in the big question: "Is there a God"?

The giant supercomputer started spinning up in a frenzy of calculations.

 

For 2 days this continued. Finally, the noise stopped. Silence.

A little piece of paper came out. It said "I AM GOD". :)

 

So, along with my joke, EUREKA! I have an answer.

Simple read Slotblog®. All of it.

Then you'll be right where you want :good:


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#17 Mattb

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:25 AM

I'm sure some 10 year old kid will grasp and really get excited about winding an arm and spending hours/days building a motor while his buddies are having fun racing simple style sealed motor slot cars.  For a kid it would be like having to stay in class at recess and write 50 time I won't talk during class.   When the kid looks out the window he sees his friends outside playing.   

 

Take a kid fishing for Bass with artificial bait, Maybe he'll catch a fish maybe he wont.  Take him bluegill fishing with crickets and he may catch 8-10 fish.   What makes the kid want to go fishing again?    Start small and then let his interest lead him.   

 

Get some cars, volunteer to take some scouts/a Sunday school class, your kids neighborhood buddies to the track and begin teaching basic skills.    Burning up bandwidth here hasn't encouraged one kid yet.


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#18 SlotStox#53

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 09:23 AM

Prime example of this is the blogger who runs the HO drag racing series in schools!!

They build their own cars, run them and it gets them involved and appears to be a great success :D

*don't know the name, will have to go looking for some links etc.**

#19 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:16 AM

To break it down simply... 

Race. If you win, your car was right. If you lose, copy what the guy who beat you did. 

If you aren't racing, there's no "right" way to build a car. Or, if you're trying to build a replica of a specific car (as you have so often tormented us with) then there is a right and a wrong way to build that replica but it still comes down to mimicry. 

However, as you've also pointed out, there's insufficient documentation as to that particular car so it's anyone's best guess until further information is presented. 

So, in summary, if you aren't RACING or BUILDING A REPLICA then there is quite literally no wrong way to build.


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#20 brucefl

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:41 PM

I will do the research then print the booklets and enlighten this waisted band with my fine feathered friend Matt.
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#21 brucefl

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 06:19 PM

This proof of my case you guys were holding out you get into the weeds further than I could ever get,just look at this discussion of gearing formulas,this is exactly what I was talking about,and the discussion of arms,motors,chassis,in order to track/race tune/build our cars prior to actually racing on the track and from there you can tweet as needed,even taking into concideration your competitions driving style.

Now what do you think?

It's all politics isn't it,if you don't like someone you guys calm up,its just like hazing isn't it,in the day it was that way because everybody was a potential competitor.It not that way anymore now it's about what helps to reignite the hobby and believe it or not it's more about how to be a good slot car scout,help eachother,healthy competition,what it ultimately boils down to we might be sharing information but it comes down to who's better at his work and always trying to improve at that,and being all you can be,always striving to improve challenging our selves,and trial and error to innovate,but freedom of interaction and give and take is or isn't that better or is it ultimately capitalism where everybody is a potential competition who will steal whatever greedy thing we are trying to get.

No in society this is the crossroads of this mentality,certainly I don't want to give all the lazy people in the world all the secrets to success and encourage them not to figure things out for themselves,but I believe in helping my fellow brothers and sister to help themselves,uplift them,one hand washes the other and together they wash the back.

Otherwise it's every man for themself,and no man is an island.

Enough sayings,you know what I mean,what are your opinions I'd like to hear?

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#22 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:20 AM

So what you're telling us is that a few moments with the search function gives you some answers? 

Look, Bruce, I'll break down my answer even further for you. 

In modern racing there are THREE categories which give you any control over armature winding: Group 7 wing cars, Eurosport flat track racing, and AA funny cars in drag racing. If you're racing in any of those categories, okay, great, but the "Pro Racing Cars & Replicas" section of the vintage cars section isn't the right place to ask about those categories. 

 

If you are discussing gearing, tire height, and armature wind as it is relevant to "Pro Racing Cars & Replicas" then what you're looking for isn't what's advantageous for a particular track but rather what's an accurate replica of what was used by a particular car or rulebook at a particular point in time. As such, you would be looking for an answer to which slot car historians would need much more specific parameters such as what car, what racer, what race, what time frame. 

Now, if you're not participating in Group 7, Eurosport, or AA funny car racing, then the armature wind is no longer in question and it becomes a question of gearing and tire height and THAT then enters a world of new parameters. To give you an example, my personal favorite class is OCC Group 10 which is a 16D class. I generally run a .765" hard tire (JK Wonder or Alpha Medium Wonder depending on track conditions) with 11/38 as my "big track" (anything over 110 feet) gearing and 9/41 as my "short track" (anything under 110 feet) gearing. 

HOWEVER...

 

I have two entirely different motors for short course and long course cars (big diameter arm with high timing in the long course, small arm with mild timing in the short course) and they're in two entirely different chassis AND all of what I am able to choose is dictated by the rules of the category. 

You ask questions without parameters, without the BOUNDARIES that define racing. As such, as I said before, there is no right way to build your theoretical car. 

An F1 engine might make for one fast Touring Car, but it's irrelevant because that makes it no longer able to take part in Touring Car races. Do you finally understand?


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#23 brucefl

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 12:24 PM

senior porter no comprende,got it!

 

I think youre not getting my point,because you say only group 7,Eurosport and AA can have variances,but when John Havlicek winds various non group 7,or Eurosport arms with different timing then either hes wrong or youre wrong,and hes selling these arms,so the other possibiloty is that hes winding a group 12 arm not in spec but just for his customers fun,somits not so cut and dried.

 

Theoretically I can take any class and fiddle with it/tweek it but it wont be legal in races where they run strict rules not allowing for variances in armatures.


Bruce Schwartz

#24 SlotStox#53

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 01:27 PM

Bruce, I don't think you're getting it??

John isn't holding anything back, or doesn't know what he's doing. I'm fairly sure he winds some things neutral?? or only at a fairly conservative 10° or so CCW.. Plus winding to a customers specs then it's down to requirements..

What classes are you wanting this so illusive or important information for? Why so caught up in this seemingly "holy grail" stuff?

Are these kids or yourself winding or building for existing classes/starting your own or just winding & building for the hell of it??

If it's purely for your vintage pro car era kick where you romantically wax lyrical about a certain time why do you need all this fuss? Motors,ratios,chassis design are all well documented and built within these electronic web type pages.

Pick a design, build it yourself, pick a motor spec and either buy one or wind it yourself and Bob's your uncle you have a car you or anyone can be proud of and have a blast running laps :D
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#25 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 02:01 PM

senior porter no comprende,got it!

 

I think youre not getting my point,because you say only group 7,Eurosport and AA can have variances,but when John Havlicek winds various non group 7,or Eurosport arms with different timing then either hes wrong or youre wrong,and hes selling these arms,so the other possibiloty is that hes winding a group 12 arm not in spec but just for his customers fun,somits not so cut and dried.

 

 

John Havlicek winds and rewinds armatures, as I understand, because he is fascinated with the slot car motor and its mechanical potential. He builds motors FOR THE SAKE OF BUILDING MOTORS knowing that his creations are not generally for the purpose of racing. They're free-form experiments in the potential of various motor formats, effectively works of art. 

 

And I have come across Havlicek arms used for racing and guess what, they're spot on for the limits and requirements of the category. 

 

If you want to follow his lead and the lead of others who create for the sake of creating then by all means go for it but understand that there IS NO RIGHT ANSWER when you're doing so because there's no measure, there's no metric as to whether or not it was successful other than if it works. 

Race cars are measured by the clock. In the end, that's the only thing that matters on a race car. 


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