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More 4002FK blues


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#1 Bazzie

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:44 PM

This is not just a gripe topic, but perhaps if the manufacturers get common feedback, small adjustments could be made.

The last two batches that came in over the last 6-8 months looked like there were improvements. Brush gear tighter and better aligned, magnets seemed to be a little weaker (). So theres hope

I had a fast one in my lmp, and lately all the motors I bought have been fast ones, very consistent. However, I had 2 fail recently, and when I say fail, I mean gracefully. They just started going slow. Last night it happened again. Before stripping the motor I cleaned it, re-aligned brush gear and reassembled it. Still running slow and drawing only 0.8A, about 2/3 or less than it should be @ 4V. So I checked arm resistance and surely, one pole went open circuit. Fiddled a bit with the windings where they go through the crimped tabs and voila, pole no longer isolated. So perhaps the wires werent cleaned enough before crimping, or perhaps crimping just isnt good enough? Welding will probably add too much to the cost, but Ive had 2 motors from about 2yrs ago that lasted about 11 months. Lately I get about 1-4 months before they fail in some way.

My other issue is with balancing. Ive pulled apart all of my old dead 4002s, (a lot...) and only a few had balance holes drilled, and all including those were way out of balance, really rough, I can balance better between two blades.

Feel free to post some post mortums



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#2 swodem

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:46 PM

PS4007....just sayin’

You get what you pays for


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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:47 PM

Bazzie,
I added "FK" to your title.

I assume that's the motor you are referencing.

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#4 Pablo

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:06 PM

What? You bought batches of $13 Chinese motors and some failed? :laugh2:


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#5 swodem

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:22 PM

OK so how many 4002FK have you bought Bazzie?

C’mon, be honest!


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#6 Bazzie

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 03:49 AM

Haha, all in all over 2 years?
I’d say about 15, about half of those in the first 6 months while i was learning. I bought 2 before the 2016 nats and they lasted 11 months, perhaps a bit more. After that much less, as I said


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#7 havlicek

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 06:09 AM

What? You bought batches of $13 Chinese motors and some failed? :laugh2:

 

 

Yes.  

 

PS4007....just sayin’

You get what you pays for


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One is not "the answer" to the other. :)


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#8 Shiggy

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:21 AM

Bazzie,
I added "FK" to your title.
I assume that's the motor you are referencing.

Or not. There is a non-FK 4002 (used at a track where I race occasionally) and it has similar issues
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#9 Brinkley47

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 10:08 AM

Because the motor is $13, we should expect it to fail?

 

Why does that make sense to anyone?

 

I cant help but laugh at some of the comments.


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#10 Foamy

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 11:31 AM

15 in 2 years? Wow, some buy that many a month. . .


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#11 Jason Holmes

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 02:09 PM

From what I can tell people have been having the Same Problem at BPR with GRP F so they are trying the Phoenix started in the last 3 months pole shorts 

 

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#12 Bazzie

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 04:08 PM

To be fair, I put in a lot of practice laps. Usually once a week outside of races I go practise and check cars. I usually do around 2-300 laps spread over 3 cars or more, and occasionally I do many hundreds of laps - a couple months back I was losing rhythm so I went and did about 800 laps on my f1!!
Still think the 4007 will last a year? I guess time will tell, but from what people say it sounds like it actually may



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#13 havlicek

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 04:54 PM

Because the motor is $13, we should expect it to fail?

 

Why does that make sense to anyone?

 

I cant help but laugh at some of the comments.

 

Glad you get a kick out of all this, but you made up your own translation here.  People don't "expect" a cheap motor to fail, they just shouldn't be surprised that a $13 motor is less reliable *on average* than a $50 motor.  Put another way, if that $50 motor isn't way more reliable at three plus times the price, people should be really upset.


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#14 Brinkley47

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 05:53 PM

 
Glad you get a kick out of all this, but you made up your own translation here.  People don't "expect" a cheap motor to fail, they just shouldn't be surprised that a $13 motor is less reliable *on average* than a $50 motor.  Put another way, if that $50 motor isn't way more reliable at three plus times the price, people should be really upset.

my own translation? Maybe you are reading a different thread? Read above. Start with the post you quoted earlier.
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#15 havlicek

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:15 PM

my own translation? Maybe you are reading a different thread? Read above. Start with the post you quoted earlier.

 

No, I'm reading this thread, and I re-read the post I quoted.  People still don't expect a $13 motor to fail, nor should they.  What they DO expect is for a $50 motor to be more reliable, and very few if any would compare a $50 motor to a $13 motor.


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#16 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 09:25 PM

Regarding.... 

 

 

my own translation? Maybe you are reading a different thread? Read above. Start with the post you quoted earlier.

 

 

... and this...

.

 


What? You bought batches of $13 Chinese motors and some failed? :laugh2:

 

I don't see the word "expected" in there, nor in the OP.

 

More to the point (as I understand it), most reasonable persons are aware that a $13 motor is likely to suffer from more quality control issues than a $60 motor.  This is nothing more than common sense and is (IMO) the point being made.


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#17 Tim Wood

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 08:46 AM

  :dash2: :wacko2:  :laugh2:  :good:  :victory:


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#18 Fast Freddie

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 01:55 PM

John, wasn't the 4007 touted as being comparable, in performance,  to the 4002FK?  Except for the price!  If all that's true then why have a $50 motor racing in the same classes as a $13 motor.  The $13 motor has a few problems that can be fixed to make it more reliable.  The question I have is does the $50 motor have some of the same problems or have they been remedied?  Like unglued EB bushings and magnets so far down in the can that the arm rides on the can bushing spacer.


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#19 Shiggy

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 02:29 PM

John, wasn't the 4007 touted as being comparable, in performance,  to the 4002FK?  Except for the price!  If all that's true then why have a $50 motor racing in the same classes as a $13 motor.  The $13 motor has a few problems that can be fixed to make it more reliable.  The question I have is does the $50 motor have some of the same problems or have they been remedied?  Like unglued EB bushings and magnets so far down in the can that the arm rides on the can bushing spacer.


It is not about being faster, but being more reliable and consistent straight out of the package, which is less expensive in the long run.

So far, my experience with the ps4007 is that they very are consistent in performance from motor to motor and require no tweaking or much break in to have that performance.
I have 5 motors. One has run more than 6000 laps, two more 2000+ laps, the others 600-1000.
All run similar times. No duds.
Break in by running in the cars.
Checked brush hood alignment on two (perfect out of the bag).
Oiled occasionally. No other maintenance.
ZERO issues. The 6000 lap motor runs as well as it did at 200 laps, and no differently than the 2000 or 600 lap motors.

At our track the ps4007 is running along side Hawk 7 motors, which have been our spec motor for 5-ish years.
A good H7 and a ps4007 will run near identical lap times.
But to find one "good" H7 may require trying 5-15 motors. Then that motor may be good for only 3-4 races (maybe 2000 laps).
So far we have not had a bad ps4007 from ~20 motors in use. Plus the racing is closer and more fun.
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#20 Fast Freddie

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:41 AM

Shiggy, I wasn't putting the motor down just questioning the viability of two motors with equal performance where one costs $13 and the other $50.  With both motors in the same setups common problems could still exist, like unglued EB bushings and misaligned/loose magnets, unless the $50 motor has been put through tighter QA.  Most racers also don't mind upgrading the 4002FK to "near" 4007 reliable level with Champion springs and G7 brushes leaving only the arm to chance and now makes it a $20 motor.  It does bring back the good old days of $50 Puppy Dog motors.  By the way are they still around?  What do you think will happen when 4007 compete directly with 4002FK motors and don't win consistently and if they do win consistently are they truly equal in performance? 


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#21 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 01:55 PM

I'm sorry, but what in all of Christendom are you guys doing to your 4002FK's? 
 

Since January of 2016 (have to go by the data I have with my POS system) I've sold 119 of these motors not counting ones included in RTR customer GTP and now GT1 builds. I've watched them run in cars varying in weight from 4.5" Champion Turboflexes to PSE Tripod wing cars. I have yet to have one person come up to my counter complaining that the motors are problematic. 

Nearest comparison? I've sold 202 Retro Hawks in that same time frame and I would hope for the sake of sanity that I don't have to point out the racer dissatisfaction with that particular powerplant. 


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#22 Richard G With

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 02:29 PM

Does anyone here KNOW if the 4007 arms are sent to China for installation, or is the motor assembled here?

I'm sure brush hardware is being modified somewhere to accommodate the larger "American" comm. Is there better quality control in the setup too?

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#23 Bazzie

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:07 PM

I'm sorry, but what in all of Christendom are you guys doing to your 4002FK's? 
 
Since January of 2016 (have to go by the data I have with my POS system) I've sold 119 of these motors not counting ones included in RTR customer GTP and now GT1 builds. I've watched them run in cars varying in weight from 4.5" Champion Turboflexes to PSE Tripod wing cars. I have yet to have one person come up to my counter complaining that the motors are problematic. 

Nearest comparison? I've sold 202 Retro Hawks in that same time frame and I would hope for the sake of sanity that I don't have to point out the racer dissatisfaction with that particular powerplant. 

As I said before, lately they are very consistent in performance, I’ve not found a wide variance, but I’ve had a few seemingly premature failures. They seem to hold up really well and then fail with no warning. Because of our rules I think some people still get comm overlaps, and I think that’s when they light up like a Christmas tree. I’ve had at least 2 of the suddenly slow ones, probably more like the last 4, and I now believe it was all from a pole that went open circuit.

I still hold, I do like the 4002fk motors, cheap, and most of the quirks have easy fixes. Even with the issues, I think they’re still more reliable and consistent than most other sealed motors. The quality in some respects has improved lately, in other respects gone a bit backwards


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#24 Bazzie

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:14 PM

Btw I’m now on motors 5 & 6 (and I’ve had the current 2 for about 2 months now, previous 2 failed about 2 weeks apart) since the nats in September last year, while the previous yr I was still on 1 & 2 by this time, with very similar amounts of practice and racing. We use them on both F1 and LMP.


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#25 swodem

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:19 PM

Current latest PS4002FK appear slightly quicker than last batch but noticeably more frail. We have had quite a few die lately, when for the previous few years they have gone forever
It’s now common again (as we had with Falcon 7) to smell that ominous burning smell during a race, indicating the end for someone....
I would guess a change in supplier(?) when the arm went to a comm-tied version, and maybe coincidentally the ‘cog’ also reduced around the same time.


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