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SVP arm with shrink wrap


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#1 Maximo

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 11:35 AM

Gentlemen,

I bought sometime back, a S.V.P. 16D armature that is wrapped with both copper and silver wire.

What confuses me is that it is "shrink wrapped" around the laminations and I don't know if that is intended to remain intact or should it be removed before operating it?

I have never seen this before and none of the other S.V.P. armatures are built this way.

Thanks in advance.

maximo
 
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#2 zipper

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 12:51 PM

I suppose it's for rust prevention during storage. It would melt when running, about 350°F or less.


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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 03:47 PM

Who would have thought they invented shrink wrapping before Dykem?


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#4 havlicek

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 04:53 AM

I don't know what an S.V.P. arm is, but I guess(?) this is before arm tubes? 

The only thing is, the comm is left totally unprotected, so there goes that theory. Then again, the comm appears to be raw/uncut, so minor damage would be taken care of by truing-up the comm anyway.
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#5 Bill from NH

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 07:57 AM

I never saw one of these arms. Before arm tubes, arms were sold in small foam-lined plastic boxes. Apparently, this arm winder was different.

Max, do you have any history on S.V.P. arms, since some of us on the east coast aren't familiar with them?
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#6 Maximo

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 09:45 AM

From what I know...

S.V P. was a NorCal/Bay Area arm winder that was competitive with Mura. Maybe only during the rein of the Russkit 22/23 as they are short on the bottom end.

I had never heard of them until these arms appeared on eBay. Most of them have worked out okay as I got some that were can bearing drive only. I bought those for my La Cucs.

John: The last motor that you built for me had one of these endbell drive arms. Runs good after your work.

I removed the shrink wrap and assembled the motor and it barely runs. More fine-tuning ahead I suppose!

maXiMo

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SVP 16D B.jpg

SVP 16D A.jpg
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David Ray Siller
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#7 Bill from NH

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:38 AM

Max, thanks for a little history of S.V.P. arms.


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#8 Maximo

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 02:47 PM

Issue resolved!

Thanks to Gene Adams for some great suggestions.

I completely reassembled the motor including changing a brush holder plate that I thought might be to tight on the 36D brush movement.
The problem after reassembly for the umpteenth time was too few amps from my default power supply.
Once I powered up with additional available amps it sing a powerful and wonderful tune!

Thanks a million Gene!

mAxiMo
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#9 havlicek

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 06:04 AM

I'd think you can get significantly better performance (*either smoother, cooler or faster...or all of those) by having the com cut.  It looks as though the arm has a Kirkwood com and many of those were pretty far out of round in their stock form.  Even just the oxidation from time building up can degrade performance.  The second photo makes it look like the arm is a double wind and the com connections were soldered, with some decent advance dialed-in.  If it's *only* a double 30, that would be roughly equivalent to a single 27, even more reason to make sure everything is in tip top condition.  If the motor is going to REALLY be run hard, it would also be a good thing to have the balance checked after cutting the com, and both can be done by the same reconditioning service oftentimes.  Alpha does both...and he does very good work, and I'm sure there are others.  If the motor won't be run much, I guess it doesn't matter much.  If left as-is and the motor is run, *always check for signs of excess heat after the first lap or two.


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#10 Maximo

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 04:00 AM

John,

Thanks for the advice.

I did do some work on the Comm and changed some parts before careful reassembly.
Runs strong now.

mmxaio
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#11 proptop

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 08:43 PM

I wonder if the shrink wrap (clear heat shrink tubing?) was meant to try and contain the windings? If it isn't epoxied, it (the wrap) might have been used to keep it from slinging the wires?


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#12 Maximo

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 10:07 PM

Tom,

I had similar thoughts,...

but then I decided to remove the "wrap" and I discovered it was not epoxied in place and as Zipper cautioned that heat would melt it.

Again I was surprised by the wrap and asked the experts here about this mysterious situation.

maxImo

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#13 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 06:00 AM

I wonder if the shrink wrap (clear heat shrink tubing?) was meant to try and contain the windings? If it isn't epoxied, it (the wrap) might have been used to keep it from slinging the wires?

 

Nah Tom.  Shrink wrap is a relatively thick material by slot car air-gap standards, and would only form "kind of" tightly to the outside of the armature, never the windings inside the crowns.  It's also fairly delicate and not at all heat-resistant.  The stuff will melt if you just look at it with an attitude, let alone subject it to even typical motor running temps.  I'd be surprised if the shrink wrap was even a period thing, and more likely think it has been added years later by whoever was selling the arms, as a weird way of "sort of" protecting the arms.  (*even though it offers not much real protection).  It's not even covering the most exposed parts of the coils at the top and bottom, let alone the com.  Besides, from even the beginning of slots' "paleolithic period", custom winders already knew that the best way to prevent an arm from tossing a winding was to epoxy the coils.  :)


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#14 MSwiss

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 07:28 AM

I'm 98% sure Zipper had it right in post #2.

It's just to prevent rust on the stack.

As far as not protecting the comm from oxidation, I never worried about a fingerprint or anything similar on my personal comms.

If the motor turning 50-180K RPM, and the copper "getting smaller", isn't self-cleaning, I don't know what would be.

Mike Swiss
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#15 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 08:12 AM

I'm 98% sure Zipper had it right in post #2.

It's just to prevent rust on the stack.

As far as not protecting the comm from oxidation, I never worried about a fingerprint or anything similar on my personal comms.

If the motor turning 50-180K RPM, and the copper "getting smaller", isn't self-cleaning, I don't know what would be.

 

Maybe...maybe not a "rust preventative"...or at least that may have been the thought, although leaving the ends open to allow moisture in and then having the shrink wrap on there which would help to keep it on the stack, would probably do more to promote rust than to prevent it.  Still, it *might* have been what the thought was.

As for "protecting the com from oxidation", when I mentioned "protecting the com", I was talking about protecting it from physical bangs/damage.  I also seriously doubt that coms are "self-cleaning" in the practical sense, even with the wear they experience.  Copper oxides are non-conductive, and the combination of oxides and other burnt "stuff" that would combine with them does degrade performance.  Anyway, whether or not coms need to be cleaned (*aside from actually trued) before running even an old (*but unused) one is a whole separate thing, though I still disagree.


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#16 zipper

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 08:20 AM

I'm pretty sure I had a similar arm - just with reddish wire, double wind perhaps #30. Tried it and found it pretty lame. Leftovers from a shop cleaning their desks. I got also some Dynamic arms and Calex, Versitec, Lenz whatever, all from 60's that didn't sell in 1972. And I was the last one to use Zimmerman as everybody had changed to Steube and Pooch.


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#17 MSwiss

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 08:55 AM

 

Maybe...maybe not a "rust preventative"...or at least that may have been the thought, although leaving the ends open to allow moisture in and then having the shrink wrap on there which would help to keep it on the stack, would probably do more to promote rust than to prevent it.  Still, it *might* have been what the thought was.

As for "protecting the com from oxidation", when I mentioned "protecting the com", I was talking about protecting it from physical bangs/damage.  I also seriously doubt that coms are "self-cleaning" in the practical sense, even with the wear they experience.  Copper oxides are non-conductive, and the combination of oxides and other burnt "stuff" that would combine with them does degrade performance.  Anyway, whether or not coms need to be cleaned (*aside from actually trued) before running even an old (*but unused) one is a whole separate thing, though I still disagree.

The surface of the copper is quickly being worn / arced away.

 

How could copper with oxidation on the surface effect performance if it's no longer there?

 

IOW, what used to be there, is no longer there.

 

Maybe the motor is not at peak performance for a few seconds.


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#18 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 09:00 AM

this way:

 

 

 

Copper oxides are non-conductive, and the combination of oxides and other burnt "stuff" that would combine with them does degrade performance

  Like I said, we just disagree.


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#19 tonyp

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 09:16 AM

Im with mike on this one. Light oxidation on the com does no harm as its all ground away by the brushes as soon as you fire up the motor.
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#20 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 09:50 AM

Im with mike on this one. Light oxidation on the com does no harm as its all ground away by the brushes as soon as you fire up the motor.

 

Sure Tony..."light" oxidation might not be a problem at all, although that depends on what "light" is, and 40 or so years means (to me at least) that the com should get work.  My main idea here is that the shrink wrap did nothing to protect the arm from rust (*if that was the thought), or the com from being banged around.  No matter what, I think most anyone would have a light cut done to the com both because the Kirkwoods were pretty far out of round, "and" that would take care of getting rid of any oxidation.

Just to be clear, and to show I'm not trying to be a nit-picker  ;), I was more concentrating on cutting the com because of possible damage and just being out of round.

 

 

 

It looks as though the arm has a Kirkwood com and many of those were pretty far out of round in their stock form.  Even just the oxidation from time building up can degrade performance.

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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 10:50 AM

Of course, being round is important. Being shiny isn't.
 
My point was sending off a trued, non-shiny comm off to Alpha, etc., for a skim, is just shortening the life of the arm, with no performance gain.
 
BTW, that comm, with the spirals around the circumference, looks trued to me.

Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#22 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 11:09 AM

Of course, being round is important.

 

Being shiny isn't.

 

My point was sending off a trued, non-shiny comm, off to Alpha, etc., for a skim, is just shortening the life of the arm, with no performance gain.

 

BTW, that comm, with the spirals around the circumference, looks trued to me.

 

By now Mike, you've gone from trying to make a "side issue" I mentioned into THE issue, to stating the obvious.  I never would have guessed that "shiny" isn't important.  Of course, I'm being sarcastic, but then too...so were you correct?

Since we're into nit-picking, a skim cut isn't going to "significantly" shorten the life of the arm, especially an arm that isn't going to be run much...let alone raced or even run hard, and I'm sure you're well enough aware of that.  You mentioned it though.

If the arm has been cut (*and you must have really good eyes to figure that from the photos supplied), then there's a LOT more than "minor oxidation" on that com...a heckuva lot more.  If you personally would choose to run such an arm without touching the com, that would be fine.  If the com has been cut, the only reason to think it *may* have been is that the awful soldering job done at the com tabs seems to be cut off in a straight line around the base of the com.
------------------------

So, if you're intent on going back and forth here, lets' stick to my points, instead of ones I either didn't make or only mentioned in passing:
------------------------

*Having the com cut on a 40 year old arm that may or may not have been trued in the first place is a good idea, and most anyone who was serious would probably opt to do that for obvious and sound reasons.  You may disagree, and I would say that's fine (*in fact I did).  See how that works?

*The shrink wrap *may* have been done to help stop rust, that's your guess and is as good as anyone's, see how that works too?...but even if that were the case, it was a stupid idea and I still think it was done as general arm-protection, an equally stupid idea and equally a guess.


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#23 jimht

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 12:06 PM

What type "A" personalities?

I don't see any type "A" personalities.

I dare you to prove there are any type "A" personalities posting here.

Last man standing attitude is not a type "A" personality trait.

Type "A" personalities are widely known for reasonable attitudes in a discussion and don't treat discussions as arguments that have to be won or lost.

So, there!


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#24 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 12:43 PM

What type "A" personalities?

I don't see any type "A" personalities.

I dare you to prove there are any type "A" personalities posting here.

Last man standing attitude is not a type "A" personality trait.

Type "A" personalities are widely known for reasonable attitudes in a discussion and don't treat discussions as arguments that have to be won or lost.

So, there!

 

 

Of course, such kinds of non-directed comments can't be figured out (*which is probably the point), so I'll just take it that you mean either me, Mike or both of us.  I've gone way out of my way to answer Mike's (*and Tony's) statements here, and have done so with mostly (*until it got silly) adult replies.  If anything I've said here makes me a "type A" personality, then we have way different definitions. 

On the other hand, do you make it a habit of NOT replying when you're confident of what you said?  If so, what type personality does that make you?

Lastly, you are (of course!) welcome to dispute anything I said, and to have a different opinion...but I said that already.  Does that change my "personality category"?

Look Jim, I'm pretty comfortable with what I know about this stuff.  I've taken the time to learn it well, and prove it here every day.  Does that not qualify me as having a valid opinion?

----------
Given the way things go here, I expect this thread to be closed any minute.  Three, Two, One...


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#25 jimht

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 12:46 PM

No type "A" personalities here.  :laugh2: 


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