31 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

     I put Champion in quotes because who knows for sure (*not me, but maybe the history buffs) that these things are actually Champion?  The can looks very much the same as the one-piece drawn Champion C cans, with the big difference being of course that these are formed, folded and welded...as well as chrome-plated. 

I've done these before, having sourced them from eBay, but lingering doubts remain.  Certainly, these are the same general type and size as the Mura "Green Can" and the other similar ones such as the Trinity cans that differ only in the hole design.  That makes me believe they are from the same period of course, but these are the only cans from back then I've seen that use a 5mm bearing, as opposed to the then-common 6mm ones.  That in itself doesn't mean much, but it is weird.

The end bells that came/come with these certainly look as though they've been molded using the same or at least really similar tooling as those used by Mura...but that doesn't mean anything in itself either.  The actual end bell material seems different from the material used by Mura, and there is no "Mura" molded into the inside.

The end bell hardware does seem to be Champion alright, so I leave all this to other to figure out.  Speaking of end bell hardware, unlike the Mura hardware which is pretty much "plug and play", the Champion stuff, when used on this end bell requires a significant amount of tweaking/fitting to get it all to play well together.

For magnets. I used a pair of what were packaged as "Champion Force Mega Magnets"    Who knows what those were, maybe a Mura product sold under the Champion name.  They are shorter than the old long-form Mura (*and other) magnets, but it seems clear that people did substitute the newer magnets as they became available.  In any case, at least they were "Champion" labeled

***I did the assembly by only getting things to fit and work correctly.  I substituted the end bell bushing which, as opposed to the Mura end bell, was loose fitting, for a 6mm bearing and then "keyed" the bearing in place.  On the can, the only "modification" I did was to enlarge the bushing'bearing hole to accept a 6mm bearing because...it just seemed more fitting.  The result is a setup that's fully up to the task of any reasonable-for-the-period armature.  I think I'm up to that task as well. 

[Bill from NH]

I think the can was made by Mura for Champion. Mine aren't plated.

[Jairus]

I bought one new in 1990.  It had a chrome can just like that.  Do not remember the buss bars looking like that tho.

[John Secchi]

Not sure this is the right thread to post pictures of a three holed can i picked up recently, it's possible it might be by Champion and seem to remember a mention of it some time back but cannot find the posts!
It's a "C" can folded in 0.040" steel so quite heavy, have another example of the same but the sides and front have been machined thinner, any idea?
[oneofwos]

[Bill from NH]

Jairus, those buss bars are the ones Champion sold when they released their 1st C-can endbell in the mid-'70s. These Champion endbells weren't the same quality as the Mura we had been using previously.

 

John Secchi, you have a 2nd generation Champion C-can. The 1st generation was drawn, I thought the 2nd was folded. It was released in the mid-70s when Champion ran out of 1st generation cans. All Champion C-cans came from the factory with 2 slots top & bottom, yours has middle slots added that were popular to do. The 2nd generation C-can also had screw tabs top & bottom to mount the, then new, Champion endbell. Your can tabs have been removed. I own two Champion 2nd generation C-cans. I just checked them both. The one I built into a motor setup has sidewall seams & is folded like yours, the unused one is drawn. These two cans were bought together at the same time with Champion endbells in the mid-'70s & both have the screws tabs.. Now I'm wondering if there could have been a 3rd generation? In addition to adding the third slots, we use to grind or turn the can sides (I turned them.) to be .020' thick.

[havlicek]

I bought one new in 1990.  It had a chrome can just like that.  Do not remember the buss bars looking like that tho.

 

The motor pictured has what looks like a ProSlot end bell Jairus...but it seems to have been secured with pintabs! 

 

Not sure this is the right thread to post pictures of a three holed can i picked up recently, it's possible it might be by Champion and seem to remember a mention of it some time back but cannot find the posts!

It's a "C" can folded in 0.040" steel so quite heavy, have another example of the same but the sides and front have been machined thinner, any idea?

[oneofwos]

 

Hi John...of course it's the right thread!    There were so many can types or at least "variations" back then, it's hard to figure.  Yours sure looks as though it might be a Champion...I think?  (*nice arms by the way).

[John Secchi]

Thanks for the reply gents.

I purchased these item together with quite a bit of other stuff the year before last from a Dutch dealer, he had purchased a hobby store [ Shamrock Modelracing in Maastricht i think] and was selling off all the old pro bits which didn't interest him as he was very much a "plastic" dealer. The arms must have been return items as when i got home and tried to fit one the shaft wouldn't go through the ball race so i checked them all with a vernier and they measured 2.01mm? not so much of a problem as i managed to sand to fit, no idea what winds they might be but my guess is 26 and possible a 25 gauge. All in all not a bad purchase when you consider the above, a card of Mura endbells, a card of Parma #447 elephant ears, a Parma #492 Feather set up, various pans and drop arms and much more for about £30 with todays free fall pound about $40!

[oneofwos] 

[Bill from NH]

John Secchi, in the day, no arm shaft was a slide fit in the GRW motor bearings. I've polished many an arm shaft with mylar-backed Flex-I-Grit sandpaper & a Dremel.

[mreibman]

I have NIP champion endbells & hardware in my parts box at home. Will be glad to post pics here for you. They're vintage mid 90's.

[havlicek]

...and I just ruined a perfect #26 arm for this motor by just not paying attention.  You get comfortable, you start working in "automatic mode", you ruin things.  I got up, turned off the lights and walked away mumbling an assortment of expletives.

[havlicek]

OK...so the replacement arm  is in the oven to speed-cure the epoxy.  Lesson-learned (*until the next time I get complacent), but you can never let your guard down and start acting like "I've done this a bazillion times before, it's EZ", because that's when Mr Murphy comes a-callin'.  

So, from what I'm gathering, the can is a 1990's thing made for Champion by Mura.  The end bell hardware is Champion (*the bussbars are made from a bit  thicker material than the Mura stuff)...and the end bell *might* be Champion, but from an earlier date than the can.  In any case, it's either a Mura end bell made for others to use, or is a direct ripoff of the Mura.

[havlicek]

The arm is done, and again it's as perfect as I can make them.  The wind is 29/26awg and at one or two turns more than I usually do these, it's still four-layer coils, but one turn away from being a "popsickle stick wind"...you know, where you have to shmoosh the wire on there and cram it.    The coils are full front-to-back, which can lead to those arms where the last pole really doesn't want to cooperate (*winders know what I'm talking about), but I tried the pattern first and took some steps while winding to avoid that nonsense.

[havlicek]

This all reminds me of a topic that comes up about modern armatures...hand-winding versus CNC machine winding.  While I feel confident that a good hand wound arm is tough to beat, there is one major way that machine-wound arms are "better".  The tendency of human beings towards complacency and "variation" is completely taken out of the winding process.  I've done groups of arms for people...sometimes 10-12 at a time, and every one of them is slightly different just looking at the winding alone.  If you include the welding, the tying, the epoxying, the powder coating even, there are even more variations from arm-to-arm.  Machines don't get "complacent" either.  Sure, someone...an actual person...has to set them up and run them, but once set up, the arms will come out pretty much the same, arm after arm.  I'm sure that's a simplification, but is most likely true.  As much as the whole process can be automated, and the "human factor" taken out of the equation, the manufacturer will have a "more equal" product.

This all may sound strange coming from someone who works hard at this and even takes pride in what I do, but having just demo'd an armature for this build reminds me of how imperfect we humans are.  We fall for the same traps over and over again.    For sure, there are some winds that I don't think would be easy or maybe even possible to do with a machine doing the work, but for many winds, machines are really good at repetitive tasks.  I like to challenge myself every now and again (*the recent double and triple winds I showed here for the Mura "A" motor are an example), as if *just* trying to wind as well as I can isn't enough.  Truth is, just winding as well as you can is enough of a challenge. 

[proptop]

FWIW I have a few Pro Slot C can motors that I purchased new, in the early 90's that have that same can...might be a Pro Slot product then sold to Champion?

I seem to recall reading something about this back when Ron H. was a slotblog member...back prob. 6-8 years ago...

 

I am wondering, John Secchi, if your Champion can is a sold only in the UK product? It looks very much like tha .040 thick 2 hole cans I have but yours appears to have that 3rd hole in the middle that looks factory punched...? Have never seen a can like that with what looks like a factory punched 3rd / center hole.

 

Going from a somewhat "Iffy" memory, I think the .040 thick 2 hole folded cans were first...then the .030" thick versions...then the thin, drawn versions (Cee can) with the end bell mounting tabs...

[havlicek]

 

 

I am wondering, John Secchi, if your Champion can is a sold only in the UK product? It looks very much like tha .040 thick 2 hole cans I have but yours appears to have that 3rd hole in the middle that looks factory punched...? Have never seen a can like that with what looks like a factory punched 3rd / center hole.

 

For sure.  If the third hole was added, it must have been done by someone who REALLY cared, because it does look "factory".

[zipper]

Yes, but it looks a tiny bit different and isn't perfectly centered. Well, nitpicking...

[havlicek]

Yes, but it looks a tiny bit different and isn't perfectly centered. Well, nitpicking...

 

The paint inside the rim of the center hole looks a bit different, but you can see some of that same "difference" on the two other holes in the pictures.  As for how well it's "centered", all of these earlier C cans have some pretty noticeable variations/differences, even among different production runs of the Muras.  I'm still not sure ...well at least not 100%, but close what these cans are, but even less so with John's (*although I still like his armatures, no matter what!) 

[John Secchi]

Think they are factory done as it looks to me the center holes have been punched out on both the can's i own, one side [ top side] they are both quite accurate but the bottom side on both can's the hole's are not, both are rotated slightly and both look exactly the same! 

[oneofwos]

[havlicek]

Think they are factory done as it looks to me the center holes have been punched out on both the can's i own, one side [ top side] they are both quite accurate but the bottom side on both can's the hole's are not, both are rotated slightly and both look exactly the same! 

[oneofwos]

 

 

If they were punched, as opposed to cut, then it most certainly was a factory job.  You can tell if they were punched because there will be a top and bottom.  The top (*where the punch tool entered the metal) will be slightly concave, the bottom will be slightly convex with a slight ridge around the hole caused by the tool coming through the metal.  It's even possible (!?) that the can was originally punched with two holes, and the third hole added before forming and welding.

[Bill from NH]

Endbell mounting screw holes were not punched on Champion C-can sidewalls, as shown in John's photo. These holes always had to be user-placed & drilled. John, questions about the origin of your can still exist.

[proptop]

Hi Bill...in post #14 I guess I didn't word it the same as it was going on in my head... my internal dialog loses something in translation sometimes...might have something to do with multiple concussions...but I digress.

 

The first part of that post was intended for John H. and his project...I would hazzard a guess that you (John H.) got them from Rob...Trainrenn on epay...correct?

He has them listed as Mura, but I have only ever seen them packaged as Pro Slot or Champion.

 

Oneida Raceway and Hobby is where I did most of my racing during the 90's...another place was Grand Prix in Syracuse...and bought a couple of X-12's and Grp. 20's from ea. manuf. (Pro Slot and Champion) and other than the arm tags, they look identical.

 

I am trying to recall if (IIRC) it was Ron Hershman that might have mentioned that the cans were done in-house or farmed out...Ron worked at Pro Slot for a while back then IIRC...

Not sure if Mura did their own cans or???

[havlicek]

 

The first part of that post was intended for John H. and his project...I would hazzard a guess that you (John H.) got them from Rob...Trainrenn on epay...correct?

He has them listed as Mura, but I have only ever seen them packaged as Pro Slot or Champion.

 

Yes, and I *think* I contacted him to let him know I was sure they weren't Mura...but that I thought they were Champion.  Not that it mattered to me, because they're nice cans.  The 5mm bearing did confuse me though.

 

 

 

Oneida Raceway and Hobby is where I did most of my racing during the 90's...another place was Grand Prix in Syracuse...and bought a couple of X-12's and Grp. 20's from ea. manuf. (Pro Slot and Champion) and other than the arm tags, they look identical.

 

They probably were! 

 

 

 

Not sure if Mura did their own cans or???

 

As far as I know, they always did.  From what I remember, Barney Poynor, who used to post here a lot (*and with whom I had many nice phone conversations) and went to HO scale was in on the last generation of Mura cans and hardware designs, and had tried to get them to go with 5mm bearings as well as some other things.

As an aside, Barney was heavy into I15 and had some really nice magnets and other stuff.  I haven't heard from him for years now, but he was really supportive of my early efforts to get back into winding, and sent me several large bags of assorted stuff that I still use today.

[old & gray]

For reference – this is a mid 70’s (unrestored) motor. I’m reasonably certain of the history of the parts since I was in Russ’ basement when he built it.

The can was a folded 2 hole .040 can. The tabs on the top of the can were cut off. The third hole was punched on a fixture Russ made. The sides were turned down in a lathe. The top and bottom may have been thinned.
The buss bars were Champion and look like the ones on John’s motor.
 

 

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[zipper]

I suppose it's a bit newer than this what I rode 1972, just 2 holes. "Economy" with s25 Rocket without engravings.

[Bill from NH]

Pekka, my fastest car on a king track in the '70s was with an un-engraved Rocket 25 S. i found it much easier to drive than their 24 S of the same era. I made those 3rd slots in the Champion cans by drilling 3/32''(?) holes at the ends of the slot & used an endmill of the same diameter to remove the material between the two holes. Camen didn't use a 3rd slot. They drilled one 1/8" hole centered in between  the factory slots.