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Did K&S change their tubing thickness?


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#1 nzoomed

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 06:56 PM

When I was younger the tube that my father used to use was way thicker than the stuff available now.

Im only assuming it was K&S, but i was only a child when I remember my dad building cars with brass tubing.

For example some old tubing ive got laying around with about 1/8 inside diameter is way more heavy in thickness than some new stuff ive got. It would have to have been like this for at least 20 years.

I will try and find some pieces to get photos of.

 

True "pin tubing" seems to be something thats no longer available either.

The smallest tubing i can get from K&S is part number #8125

I dont call this pin tubing, Not how i remember anyway, ive got some old stuff laying around and its much more narrow in diameter and pins would make a snug fit, this stuff is way looser, and not the same stuff we used to have, im pretty sure the tube thickness is thinner on this stuff too.

 

Any info on this would be great, the thicker walled tubing was much stiffer, but im largely moving to panio wire and more flat chassis now anyway.


Shaun Belcher




#2 havlicek

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 07:14 PM

K&S does have some sizes in both "thick" (*which is what the old stuff was...I think) and thinwall types that I don't remember.  For example, they have a 2.5mm (OD) tubing with .225" wall thickness that makes dandy armature spacers, being just over 2mm ID.  I think you might have to look more carefully now because *maybe* they've added  this thinwall stuff.  Then again, maybe it's always been there and I never noticed.


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#3 A. J. Hoyt

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:34 PM

I have seen the metric sizes of round tubing with a thick and a thin wall.

 

I have never seen thick and thin in the fractional sizes, though it is not out of the realm of possibility that the ID (and, therefore, wall thickness) could have changed over the years or by batch or maybe they use "extrusion" tooling for creating the tubing which, inevitably, wears out. This would tend to make a "tighter" fit (thicker wall) as time passes.

 

It seemed to me that they were staggered in size such that the next size bigger would slide pretty snugly over the next smaller size. It seems to me that the clearance between these sizes has become "looser" on occasion as the decades have passed.

 

I generally assume a .014 wall so 1/8" tube would be .125 OD. Subtract two wall thicknesses (.028) leaves an ID of .097, approximately .003 clearance to the next size, 3/32 (.09375 rounded to .094) and so on. Do the math and see if I am, in fact, correct. Knowing the ID of the tube helps one make decisions of which size piano wire creates X amount of slop to determine the "looseness" for hinges.

 

Also, I still see the wall at about .014 for the smaller sizes of fractional square tubing, square U channel and angle channel as measured with calipers.

 

It's harder to measure wall thickness (neigh, impossible) for the smaller sizes of round tubing with calipers. It would be interesting to see if anyone has tracked the ID of fractional sizes measuring it the "right" way; with inspection gauge pins.

 

Someone pipe up if you have seen any recent changes per the title of this thread.

 

I hope this data dump helps some of the scratch builders.


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#4 nzoomed

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:46 PM

K&S does have some sizes in both "thick" (*which is what the old stuff was...I think) and thinwall types that I don't remember.  For example, they have a 2.5mm (OD) tubing with .225" wall thickness that makes dandy armature spacers, being just over 2mm ID.  I think you might have to look more carefully now because *maybe* they've added  this thinwall stuff.  Then again, maybe it's always been there and I never noticed.

Thats interesting to hear.

Im assuming there is not much demand for both types as our hobby shop we have been to for years only stocks the thin wall stuff.


Shaun Belcher

#5 nzoomed

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:53 PM

I have seen the metric sizes of round tubing with a thick and a thin wall.

 

I have never seen thick and thin in the fractional sizes, though it is not out of the realm of possibility that the ID (and, therefore, wall thickness) could have changed over the years or by batch or maybe they use "extrusion" tooling for creating the tubing which, inevitably, wears out. This would tend to make a "tighter" fit (thicker wall) as time passes.

 

It seemed to me that they were staggered in size such that the next size bigger would slide pretty snugly over the next smaller size. It seems to me that the clearance between these sizes has become "looser" on occasion as the decades have passed.

 

I generally assume a .014 wall so 1/8" tube would be .125 OD. Subtract two wall thicknesses (.028) leaves an ID of .097, approximately .003 clearance to the next size, 3/32 (.09375 rounded to .094) and so on. Do the math and see if I am, in fact, correct. Knowing the ID of the tube helps one make decisions of which size piano wire creates X amount of slop to determine the "looseness" for hinges.

 

Also, I still see the wall at about .014 for the smaller sizes of fractional square tubing, square U channel and angle channel as measured with calipers.

 

It's harder to measure wall thickness (neigh, impossible) for the smaller sizes of round tubing with calipers. It would be interesting to see if anyone has tracked the ID of fractional sizes measuring it the "right" way; with inspection gauge pins.

 

Someone pipe up if you have seen any recent changes per the title of this thread.

 

I hope this data dump helps some of the scratch builders.

Thats interesting to hear. As far as the thin wall stuff goes, your right, my observations were that each size down would fit snug in the next size up.

We would make extendible chassis this way so you could change the wheelbase for different bodies.

 

Im still trying to find some tubing with 3/16 inside diameter for these bearings to fit into:

https://www.ebay.com...872.m2749.l2649

 

The model shop told me they dont have any but will try and get it in. Have no idea on the catalog number.


Shaun Belcher

#6 havlicek

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 05:54 AM

One thing that would help with all this is that (I think?) K&S lists all of it's stuff by O.D. only, so you have to interpret things to roughly figure out the I.D.  With different wall thicknesses available of at least some sizes, it would be neat if they gave the O.D., the I.D. and the wall thickness of tubing.  They do give the wall thickness and I.D.


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#7 slotcarone

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:09 AM

I know the .062 square tubing that I have used on chassis for pin tubes is now coming in a thicker wall size and you can just get a non bent pin in it. I can see the diference just looking at it when I compare the two. The older stuff was great because it was much easier to get the pin started!


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#8 nzoomed

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:19 AM

One thing that would help with all this is that (I think?) K&S lists all of it's stuff by O.D. only, so you have to interpret things to roughly figure out the I.D.  With different wall thicknesses available of at least some sizes, it would be neat if they gave the O.D., the I.D. and the wall thickness of tubing.  They do give the wall thickness and I.D.

Yes i agree.

Another thing that is annoying is that all their tubing is now sold in packets and i had to open a packet to see what tube others would slip inside.

 

Metric and imperial conversions also are annoying, particularly if a bushing is metric!


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#9 Bill from NH

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:36 AM

When working with K&S's thin wall tubing, just remember the I.D. is 1/32" less than the O.D. In this area, I haven't come across the thick-wall tubing yet. Locally, I still get individual 1' lengths at an Ace Hardware.


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#10 havlicek

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:58 AM

 

Yes i agree.

Another thing that is annoying is that all their tubing is now sold in packets and i had to open a packet to see what tube others would slip inside.

 

Metric and imperial conversions also are annoying, particularly if a bushing is metric!

 

I guess the racks that used to be on the counter at tracks and hardware stores are a thing of the past?  Those WERE helpful.

 

 

 

In this area, I haven't come across the thick-wall tubing yet.

 

I *think* what I called the "thickwall" tubing was the stuff we always used, and the "thinwall" tubing is a newer development???  Then again, I haven't built anything in many years now.  Where do you buy K&S for building Bill?


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#11 Pappy

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:52 AM

REH sells bags of scrap or cut-off's of K&S tubing. It's a variety of small pieces in brass, copper, aluminum and some of the pieces look like they might be bronze in all shapes and sizes. You don't know what you're going to get but it does come in handy when building all sorts of things. My guess is a lot of it is off fall from special orders made for private companies and some of it is in metric sizes.

 

Shaun/nzoomed, Regular 7/32 K&S is what everyone uses for those bearings. Most of the motor brackets for Retro racing have a 7/32 hole in them for this tubing.


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#12 old & gray

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 08:56 AM

Interesting I have bought (in the last couple of years) 1/16 OD tube with .032 ID (what I consider normal) and 1/16 OD tube with .047 ID (thin wall).

 

For your reference this chart is what K&S used to say was available:Attached File  K&S sizes.pdf   47.6KB   23 downloads


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#13 Bill from NH

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:35 PM

Where do you buy K&S for building Bill?

 

John, in a nutshell, wherever I can. In no particular order, I use a local Ace Hardware store, they still have the loose racks of 1' lengths of brass, copper, SS, aluminum & 3' lengths of piano wire. In the past, I've also bought at a local train shop, the local raceway, when we had one, Hobby Lobby, one privately owned hobby shop, & on eBay. I still have a partial tube of 1/16" Sullivan piano wire left from my wing car days  in the '70's & early '80s. About 10 yrs. ago I found a K&S rack in the hardware section of a Home Depot store. When I went back another time for a closer look, the rack had been removed.


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#14 don.siegel

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:25 PM

I still find some K&S racks in the smaller hardware stores in the near north suburbs of Chicago when I visit my brother (Skokie and Evanston), but there's fewer and fewer tubes every time I pass. A big Ace hardware in Skokie has a pretty good selection, but all in blisters now; can't remember if they still have the rack. The 3' lengths are loose, but they don't have all the different parts. I also used the hobby shop Tom Thumb's new location, but they didn't have much K&S in the sizes I wanted. 

 

Up to about 10 years ago, I could occasionally find K&S racks when traveling outside of Paris here in France - the first time I saw that, I was totally flabbergasted and bought a bunch of stuff. In fact, I think it was a guy in Brest (toy & hobby shop) who told me K&S were phasing out their tubing... but I see now that he probably meant the loose racks. 

 

Don 

 

PS: I'm an agnostic on the thin-wall vs. thick-wall question: never knew they made two versions! 



#15 JerseyJohn

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 05:34 PM

On the packaging i get from HobbyLinc is says the OD and Wall thickness standard is .014 there thin wall which says as such it .006.thats thin enough if you squeeze it between fingers you will dent it.


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#16 nzoomed

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:05 PM

REH sells bags of scrap or cut-off's of K&S tubing. It's a variety of small pieces in brass, copper, aluminum and some of the pieces look like they might be bronze in all shapes and sizes. You don't know what you're going to get but it does come in handy when building all sorts of things. My guess is a lot of it is fall off from special orders made for private companies and some of it is in metric sizes.

 

Shaun/nzoomed, Regular 7/32 K&S is what everyone uses for those bearings. Most of the motor brackets for Retro racing have a 7/32 hole in them for this tubing.

Thats good to know!

In the past its been basically me going to the hobby store and taking parts with me and fitting them in each tube to see what fits lol!


Shaun Belcher

#17 Don Weaver

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:04 PM

On the packaging i get from HobbyLinc is says the OD and Wall thickness standard is .014 there thin wall which says as such it .006.thats thin enough if you squeeze it between fingers you will dent it.

 

Special Shapes, a Division(?) of K&S offers 3 wall thicknesses: the 0.006 and 0.014 that John mentioned as well as a 0.029 which is probably what the "thick" wall is.

 

Don


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