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Arm winding #1

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#1 havlicek

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:57 PM

Rather than start a new thread every time I wind an arm, I figure it's better to keep it all in one place. Hopefully others will add to the thread too. To start, here's one I just did. I ordered some unfinished arm blanks from Mura, the stack is spaced so they can be either can or endbell drive:

-wind = 55 turns/#28 awg
-timing = +15 degrees adv
-Overall length = 1.099"
-Diameter = .517"
-Stack = .465"

5528.jpg

-john
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#2 JerseyJohn

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 02:11 PM

As Always, Sweet John. :D
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#3 havlicek

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 03:11 PM

Thanks Joe! I did another #28 (a pair of endbell drives) for Joe Connolly. This one goes like this:

wind - 53 turns #28 awg
Overall length - 1.093"
Stack Diameter - .514"
Stack length - .467"
Current draw - 1.2amps @ 12V
Resistance - .4 ohm

Posted Image

-john
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#4 Horsepower

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 04:50 PM

John, that is an absolute MASTERPIECE of motor architecture! Beautiful! I sure wish I had you as a friend in 1966. :help: Most (or all) of mine either threw the windings :bomb: , or when I learned to use epoxy, melted the comms...... :cray:
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#5 havlicek

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 05:55 PM

John, that is an absolute MASTERPIECE of motor architecture! Beautiful! I sure wish I had you as a friend in 1966. :help: Most (or all) of mine either threw the windings :bomb: , or when I learned to use epoxy, melted the comms...... :cray:

Thanks also Gary...believe me, the arms I did back then didn't look or run as nice as these. My friends didn't care though, we were all happy just to "smoke 'em if you got 'em"...and we did smoke a few :) These #28's are pretty mild winds, they get spicy when you get down to 45 turns or so (.2 ohm or less) and push the timing. These should be a lot more forgiving though and after some break-in should be pretty easy to manage. I'd still like to get a hold of some class h epoxy or better in a clear/amber formula...but have pretty much given up on that.

-john
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#6 Quickerthanyu

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:04 PM

This epoxy your using.. What is it rated up to temperature wise?

Thanks

Josh Bauer
BOOLA RACING


#7 havlicek

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:33 PM

This epoxy your using.. What is it rated up to temperature wise?

Thanks


it's just regular OTC hardware store stuff, rated for 200° F. I try to optimize it by pretty careful over-curing (20+ minutes at 200 and then turn off the oven and let the arm stay in during the cool-down) and by using as little as possible, but it's definitely the weak link in all this. Even the magnet wire is rated at between 350-400° F ( 180-200°C ). Why...can you get me some of the high-temp stuff?

-john
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#8 Horsepower

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 08:41 PM

John- I saw this when snooping around at industrial stuff. Maybe it would be good for the arms. They offer a free sample, and it says class H.
http://efipolymers.t...t...0&forward=1
This is the amber stuff available in pints, 600f! http://www.cotronics...tr/pdf/4460.pdf
One other thing I forgot to mention-I use J.B. Weld (not the quik weld) for armatures I've done and none has ever let go. They claim it will resist up to 500 degrees. :D
Gary Stelter

#9 havlicek

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:39 PM

Yep...I've seen that and many others as well. This particular material is black and requires a long elevated temperature cure...6 hours at 250 or 24 hours at room temp. They also list it as a moderate viscosity which wouldn't be as good at penetrating the coils as a low-vis material. I've done a lot of googling on this from time to time and have found suitable materials and even confirmed that they've been sold to the slotcar motor industry, but only in quantity...and no samples :angry:

-john
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#10 havlicek

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:40 PM

I recently got a hold of some short Mura blanks that came with Kirkwood coms. Ron gave me some ideas about winds for these things as well as uses. I did one up today (a #25awg) and they make one heckuva high-pitched whine! :shok: I have no idea how fast the thing is spinning...but it's fast as...well really fast. I'm told that's the whole idea here...more RPMs but less torque. The arm blank itself is of seemingly really good quality...at least as good or better than the current stuff I've been using. Surprisingly, the thing doesn't seem to get particularly warm...at least running at low voltage for several minutes. The Kirkwood coms are visibly out of round when new and take quite a bit of careful effort to get them trued-up. They sure are beefy though. So here's "shorty #1" :

Posted Image

-john
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#11 Quickerthanyu

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:08 PM

I was actually hoping you had some of that secret good stuff! lol

I'm still hoping to find something that will hold up to 800 degrees or more, but i just havent been able to find anything of the sort.

If you find something, definetlly let me know, I'd love to get my hands on some!

Josh Bauer
BOOLA RACING


#12 havlicek

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:39 PM

I was actually hoping you had some of that secret good stuff! lol

I'm still hoping to find something that will hold up to 800 degrees or more, but i just havent been able to find anything of the sort.

If you find something, definetlly let me know, I'd love to get my hands on some!


Hi Josh,

800 degree or more epoxy is unecessary on the face of it. I know it makes for good advertising and all...but way before you get close to 800 degrees...a whole lot of other stuff will already have failed :) If you don't care too much about looks, you can use JB Weld for that lumpy-grey appearance ;) . If I ever do get some high(er) temperature rated epoxy, I'll be sure to post the source here though. BTW...there are some polyester resins that meet that service spec (class h) as well, but again getting them in small quantities is the problem. Now if we can get together 100 folks we can get $1000 worth of "the good stuff" :laugh2:

-john
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#13 Horsepower

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:00 PM

Hmmm,I thought Duralco™ 4460 low viscosity 600 degree would have been ideal in the trial pints. :scratch_one-s_head: :unknw:
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#14 Quickerthanyu

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:35 PM

well... I'd use it for current G7 racing... Currently Koford boasts of its 800degree epoxy, and that stuff is extremely strong.. Which has given Koford the edge in G7 racing.

JB weld isnt strong enough for G7 arms, its not even strong enough for holding in Cobalt Mags....

Josh Bauer
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#15 havlicek

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 06:35 PM

Hmmm,I thought Duralco™ 4460 low viscosity 600 degree would have been ideal in the trial pints.


I may wind up trying the Duralco, the only problem I see is that the cure time is long and with a low-vis epoxy that might mean baby-sitting the arm and flipping it until it gels enough to not run all over the place which would be difficult. Still...it seems to pretty much fit the bill otherwise.

well... I'd use it for current G7 racing... Currently Koford boasts of its 800degree epoxy, and that stuff is extremely strong.. Which has given Koford the edge in G7 racing.


The Koford material probably has other properties besides the heat rating that make it such a good choice (like the bond strength you mention). 800 degrees is probably way beyond the actual need as far as temperature goes. If a motor ever got that hot...or close...the body would probably melt just from being even fairly close to it. Even pure lead melts at just a little over 600 degrees F.

JB weld isnt strong enough for G7 arms, its not even strong enough for holding in Cobalt Mags....


It's really not the bond strength that's probably a problem with JB Weld. For one is is a "no-sag" formula and that alone makes it a bad choice. On an electrical coil (such as a motor arm), there are plenty of places for the epoxy to get into if it's low-enough viscosity that absolute bond strength for most types would be fine. JB Weld not working on cobalt mags is probably more about it just not being compatible with the magnet material. There are some great epoxies (most) that will not bond well to aluminum also. That's only a guess but if JB Weld has failed in that application, I'd just use what everyone else is using.

-john
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#16 havlicek

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 04:48 PM

I just got in some Duralco 4461 and have high hopes for the stuff (we'll see). I opted for the 4461 over the 4460 even though it's "only" rated for 500°F, because of the much more forgiving and realistic cure schedule. I don't really have the facility to leave an arm baking for 4 hours or so as the Mrs. likes to do things like...cook dinner :laugh2: Still, the 4461 should be just fine...I think. 500°F is nothing to sneeze at as long as all it's other properties fit the bill. Stay tuned.

-john
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#17 Ron Hershman

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 05:30 PM

I just got in some Duralco 4461 and have high hopes for the stuff (we'll see). I opted for the 4461 over the 4460 even though it's "only" rated for 500°F, because of the much more forgiving and realistic cure schedule. I don't really have the facility to leave an arm baking for 4 hours or so as the Mrs. likes to do things like...cook dinner :laugh2: Still, the 4461 should be just fine...I think. 500°F is nothing to sneeze at as long as all it's other properties fit the bill. Stay tuned.

-john


Do not bake your arms in the over you eat out of.... that is very dangerous and I do not recommend it.

Go get yourself a 30 or 40 dollar "toaster" over for doing your arms in and bake them somewhere out side your house... like in the garage, shed or somewhere out of the house.

Epoxy during it's curing gives off toxic fumes and leaves behind lot of other stuff you don't want in your body/system.

I learned the hard way.
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#18 Rick

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 05:31 PM

John. I did some testing a few years ago about racing open motors. They can be raced at 300 degrees for a very short period of time, anything over that is toast and that is an open 24-25 gauge arm, now bring the wire down to 29 gauge or smaller and that 300 degree operating temp is a MUCH much shorter run time.( if the arm can indeed stand it for more than a few seconds) ERGO: 600 degree glue should be more than adaquate. ;)
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#19 Ron Hershman

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 05:42 PM

Depends on the wire your using and the rating of the coating. ML wire class 220 is good for 428 F before it fails or so they claim. Armor poly is good for 392 F Thermaleze wire is only good for 311 F

Double "build" or double coated wire does not double the temp rating. It only double the amount of electrical insulation.

If you epoxy is rated at 500 F and your wire at 311F....... your will have a failure at 312 F as the epoxy does nothing for the coating on the armature.

The epoxy is used to keep the wires from moving.

Temp ratings on epoxy mean nothing..... it the tear, tensile strength you are looking for...the higher...the better. That's the problem in finding good epoxy for Group 7 arms.

800 f epoxy means nothing..... if your motor ever got to 800 F...there would be other major problems before the epoxy let go.

The biggest failure in armatures is the "work up" meaning the steps and processes in epoxing the arm and curing it correctly.

Lots of arm MFG's have great epoxy...they miss something in the work up process that leads to failures.

#20 Rick

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:00 PM

Double "build" or double coated wire does not double the temp rating. It only double the amount of electrical insulation.


I remember people from all over calling me in the 90's for some of those heavy insualtion Int. 15 arms Mura had. :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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#21 havlicek

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:30 PM

Go get yourself a 30 or 40 dollar "toaster" over for doing your arms in and bake them somewhere out side your house... like in the garage, shed or somewhere out of the house.


...already done Ron. I "Amazon'd" a cheapo Proctor Silex for like $35.

John. I did some testing a few years ago about racing open motors. They can be raced at 300 degrees for a very short period of time, anything over that is toast and that is an open 24-25 gauge arm, now bring the wire down to 29 gauge or smaller and that 300 degree operating temp is a MUCH much shorter run time.( if the arm can indeed stand it for more than a few seconds) ERGO: 600 degree glue should be more than adaquate.


10-4 Rick, I tried to make that point earlier myself and as Ron pointed out also...the insulation on the wire itself as well as a whole lotta other stuff will fail long before you get to even 500° F.

...as Ron so well said:

800 f epoxy means nothing..... if your motor ever got to 800 F...there would be other major problems before the epoxy let go.

The biggest failure in armatures is the "work up" meaning the steps and processes in epoxing the arm and curing it correctly.


-john
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#22 havlicek

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:47 PM

Well this Duralco stuff looks to be "the bee's knees". It's significantly less viscous than your normal hardware store stuff and penetrates really well. You can actually see the part you started on run into the windings as you work on the rest of the arm. Also, instead of running down the arm on the outside as the other stuff tends to do, this stuff doesn't present any problems at all since it penetrates the windings and tends to stay put bceause of that as long as you don't put too much on. It's also exceptionally clear, has no odor and even though it requires a lengthy cure time to reach full strength does in fact gel fairly quickly with heat. That means in not too much time you can continue to work on the arm balancing it, final polishing and whatnot. The stuff is expensive, but even the "small trial kit" is enough to do probably several hundred arms...at least :shok:

-john
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#23 Jerk

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 06:31 AM

I wish I had half the know-how of you guys !! Iwould love to learn how to make my own arms..
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#24 havlicek

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 08:17 AM

I wish I had half the know-how of you guys !! Iwould love to learn how to make my own arms..


...me too. When I see the stuff that Rick, Jairus, Gascar/Dennis, Steve O'Keefe etc. does, I just shake my head in wonder. When I started fooling-around with this stuff I built some chassis (mostly steel from saw and scraper blades, but some aluminum/composite stuff too) and painted some bodies that are probably OK at best. Somehow I got re-interested in winding arms like I did when I was a kid...seemed a natural part of this whole "retro" thing. Even though a LOT of people wound their own arms in the old days, factory arms took the whole market and people didn't bother any more. To a certain extent, the factory stuff got so good that people couldn't produce competitive arms at home, but that's no different from chassis. Regular people don't have the tooling to make CNC and laser-cut parts out of exotic materials, but they can make great chassis that perform exceedingly well anyway. After all...1:1 racing involves rules and limitations that define classes and so do slot cars.

So I got involved in the arm thing and have gotten some support and some of the usual..." you can't do that because...blah blah blah". That only made me more determined than ever to do a good job. Even this one (very) small aspect of slot cars has turned into way more effort and expense than I had envisioned...but the arms are really getting there with relatively little equipment and more perseverence than know-how :) These are NOT the arms I wound as a kid, but the thrill is the same. "Know how" comes simply from "doing".

-john
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#25 NJ Racer

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 09:01 AM

What about coating the stack prior to winding, any thoughts?
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#26 havlicek

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 12:58 PM

What about coating the stack prior to winding, any thoughts?



... Steve O'Keefe (who showed me some awesome looking arms he did!) and I both came up with the same basic solution for this...high temperature paint like they use on exhaust pipes and barbeques. I use a brush-formula and do two coats right over the powder coating baking for each coat and I think Steve has used a spray formula. These materials are cheap and easy to get at any auto-parts store or even hardware store. Of course, this epoxy should be great as well but a bit more time consuming. If the arm blank is powder coated in the first place, simply not tugging too hard on the wire will probably work but those sharp corners at both ends of the stack are dangerous for the first layer of windings even with the powder coating.

-john
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#27 Slapshot

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:37 AM

Coating for blanks. I won't tell you what famous arm winder told me this from the old days. For now I will blame "Insert Blank" for this. (No really thats his name).

Ceramic Glazing compond colors for pottery. Liquid paste glaze works best but dry powder will work but takes more effort to apply (pre heat). Heat cure or bake to arm slug at hi-est temp on your oven or nearest to what bottle says. Some are low temp glazes thats the one you want. For Hi temp glaze you may need to additionaly final cure in which you phaze it with a blow torch. Colors usually are different uncured but when fired come out the desired color. Withstands whatever you can throw at it. I have seen them at pottery stores in 1oz bottles in many colors but look around.

I know your going to say this is steel your talking about but it sticks if heated correctly.

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#28 havlicek

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 03:49 PM

Boy Raymond...there's a great idea I never would have thought of. Might be worth a try for sure...thanks!

-john
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#29 Steve Deiters

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 04:16 PM

All this talk about rewinding got me thinking. Anyone remember the "starwinding" technique for rewinding armatures? I remember reading about it in '65 or '66 and giving it a try.

#30 don.siegel

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:14 AM

Yep Steve, that rings a bell! Wasn't that winding each pole, but leaving the wire loose at the end then joining the three loose wires in a "pigtail"? I think I tried it at the time, but don't remember how it performed... Seems that it was good for low-amp tracks...

If Rocky is hanging around, I'm sure he knows about the star wind!

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#31 stoo23

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 07:53 AM

Hey Hi there, ...Nice Work !!

An Older slotter drom Sydney, Oz,..also used to Really enjoy Winding my own arms Many Many years ago.
I remember having One particular #25 that Won me a Few races and was a Lovely arm !!

The Ceramic concept Really works!

Waaay Back when still Running 26d's and Melting Many endbells,..lol,..Who Didn't,..
I was trying and running some pretty Radical Winds and an engineer friend of the Family (who built a static Balance device for me), had a wife into Ceramics and He suggested we try it.

Sure Kept My 25 of 25's running,..Until the endbell Melted !!,..lol,..I remember it Made a Sound like a Bob Green Open !!!,..lol

Some years back though,..I went looking for a suitable Armature Winding 'Glue' as such.

I did a bit of research and actually found a Very High Strength and Hi Liquid Holding Power,..(IE it Remained Gooey When initially Liquid and would Not 'Spin Off'), form of Polyamide Varnish like Resin,..That Required Pre Heating and a Not so dramatic Cure. It Remained Stable till about 412 or 420 from recollection.

I had also Figured that at Temps around the 350 to 400 degree points,..Failure of the Epoxy was Probably the Least of My Worries.

I am Sorry that at the Moment I cannot remember the Name,..But it Did Hold together on the Few arms that I tried it on some Years back.

Getting Good Welds on The Commutator are Probably More of an issue !!,..lol

Now you have made me want to Wind a Few Arms again !!,..

If I can Recall a Brand or Product Name for the Material I found,..I will Post it here.

Star Winds??,..Hmm,..from My Recollection,..they were a complete Waste of time and effort and as far as I am aware came More from Multi Pole motors than the simple 3 spoke ones we use. None that I ever saw run went as Quick OR Quicker than a well wound standard Wind!

Cheers :)
Stewart Amos

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#32 havlicek

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 04:39 PM

This is the first arm I've done in a while using #25awg on a New Mura blank. I've had some difficulty working out a pattern on the Mura blank with #25awg in the past on this blank so I spent some extra time working on that aspect. This is also the first arm I've epoxied using Cotronics Duralco 4461 which is rated for 500° F. This material has really nice working characteristics and seems to really penetrate the windings fully. Anyway, the arm comes in at around .2 ohm and spins like a sonofagun. I'm also down to using 1/32" and 3/64" drill bits for balancing to add a safety factor with these arms since the web profile is thin. Finally, this particular arm was spaced so that there's enough shaft for it to be either can or endbell drive depending on what use for it someone has. It's a "whistler" , I want to say it's a "rocket"...but that one's been taken :)
Posted Image

-john
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#33 Tex

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 10:25 PM

Looks great, John; keep up the good work. I hope to try my hand at rewinding in a year or so.
Richard L. Hofer

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#34 havlicek

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 06:17 AM

Thanks Stuart and Tex. I say go for it!, and if there's anything I can do to help just let me know. Winding can be frustrating as heck, but it can also be a huge kick when you get one done and hear the thing spin. You can get gobs of torque and RPMs out of these things...make them as mild or as wild as you please.

-john
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#35 havlicek

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 05:35 PM

Here's another new Mura blank done-up as a #23 awg...for the not-too-faint-of-heart :-) Epoxy is (again) Cotronics' "Duralco 4461" cured at room temp for 24 hours and then post cured for 15 minutes at a time (x3) at 200°F. The #23's are the only ones I'm afraid to spin-up all the way with no load...they sound scarey :laugh2:

Posted Image

-john
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#36 JerseyJohn

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 06:24 PM

Now thats what I call Horse Power John!!!!!
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John Chas Molnar

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#37 havlicek

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:06 PM

Now thats what I call Horse Power John!!!!!


Hi John,

Yeah...I wouldn't run it for extended periods of time :) , but for blasting around the track a little or maybe slot drags the 23's are pretty crazy. They feel like they want to twist out of your hand when you spin them up. :shok: There's at least a "bit" more safety with these and the Duralco epoxy and the thinner drill bits for balancing, but with this one, I went for the gusto. I also coated the arm with Duralco before winding.

-john
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#38 havlicek

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 05:39 AM

So I started a little "project" a while back cutting-down a Mura "VTC" can. I took the whole endbell part of the can off, the part with the tabs and screw holes for mounting the endbell which shortened the can by a pretty good amount. This made drilling the endbell for the can screws a little difficult since the endbell hardware screws were pretty much right in the way, but I was able to get them in there OK. I think it was Phillipe that said something like this was available from Mura for a while...maybe for 1/32 cars or just chassis where space is a problem. I got a suitable arm wound from some older Mura blanks with short stacks and some Blue Dots in the can and am just waiting for the epoxy to cure. I'm going to balance it and give it a spin after work to see what's what. It all looks good, but who knows how these things will turn out?...not me :)

-john
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#39 havlicek

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 05:37 PM

So I got the arm all done up and it really screams, drawing around 4 amps @ around .2 ohm. The can is a cut-down Mura "VTC" with Mura Blue Dots and the arm is a short stack older Mura drill blank with the thinner laminations (.007") and a Kirkwood com wound with #25 awg, with the wind inspired by Ron Hershman. A normal Mura C can is pictured next to the cut-down one for a sense of scale, with the arm below. 1/32 sidewinder or anglewinder possibilities here. Not long ago, Jairus built a beautiful 1/32 anglewinder that would be about perfect for something like this...I think.

Posted Image

-john
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#40 havlicek

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:47 AM

I have 6 arms here of varying winds, stack lengths and timing (some are pretty mild and some are pretty wild) that folks can have for a small fee (pretty much cost). The reason for this is that I never kept a record of which ones have the high-temp epoxy which I'm using now. Some are useable for either can or endbell drive, some are can drive only. I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but if anyone's interested they can just PM me for details.

-john
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#41 havlicek

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:50 AM

...for those who've asked, here are the arms with my scribble for the specs next to the decidedly amateur photos.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

-john
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#42 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:58 AM

Beautiful job of armature winding there sir. My hats off to you. None of mine I ever did years ago looked that good, and I doubt I could do it today even though I know a lot more than I did. When you say they are Mura blanks, does that mean that Mura supplies blank "unloaded" arms with comms already on them?

Michael Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#43 havlicek

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:43 AM

Beautiful job of armature winding there sir. My hats off to you. None of mine I ever did years ago looked that good, and I doubt I could do it today even though I know a lot more than I did. When you say they are Mura blanks, does that mean that Mura supplies blank "unloaded" arms with comms already on them?

Michael Rigsby


Thank you Michael. I still would like to continue to improve, but have at least gotten to a level of consistency and have figured out some winds I prefer. On the arms, yes... I've been using Mura blank arms and buying their coms separately to be installed for overall arm length and timing. I also have gotten hold of some older Mura blanks from time to time with Kirkwood coms. The older blanks are really nice as well...but I prefer the new Mura comms to the Kirkwoods. Lastly, I've gotten some good advice on sourcing parts and also on some winds from SlotBlog (especially Ron Hershman) that made it possible for me to revisit one of the best aspects of slot cars I remembered from when I was a kid. If you're thinking about maybe doing some winding, go for it!

-john
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#44 Phil Irvin

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:38 PM

:shok:

Back in the 60s when I wound my own. I found that if I measured the length of wire, rather than the number of turns, I came out with a better balance. I had no meters to test the arms resistence so I could not tell if each poll was right on. Back then all I had was static balanceing. One thing I did do was make a ficture to rotate the arms slowley over a 100 wat bulb so as to not let the epoxy gravitate to the low side..I can't remember what kind of epoxy I used but it was used in large coil windings and it had a slight caramel color. My book on what lengths I did is lost in my many moves. I too did a 23 guage on the champion setup with the hi temp red ends that was an amp sucker on the track but was real good on the drag strip with a deep cycle battery.

SPENT A FEW LATE NIGHTS :blink:
PHIL

#45 havlicek

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 06:21 AM

:shok:

Back in the 60s when I wound my own. I found that if I measured the length of wire, rather than the number of turns, I came out with a better balance. I had no meters to test the arms resistence so I could not tell if each poll was right on. Back then all I had was static balanceing. One thing I did do was make a ficture to rotate the arms slowley over a 100 wat bulb so as to not let the epoxy gravitate to the low side..I can't remember what kind of epoxy I used but it was used in large coil windings and it had a slight caramel color. My book on what lengths I did is lost in my many moves. I too did a 23 guage on the champion setup with the hi temp red ends that was an amp sucker on the track but was real good on the drag strip with a deep cycle battery.

SPENT A FEW LATE NIGHTS :blink:
PHIL


Hi Phil,

It's great to talk with another "mad-scientist" winder from back then. My favorites were the Mabuchis and while my friends liked the Russkit and Classic motors, I liked the yellow things that I think (memory is fuzzy) were sold by K&B??? I think they were called "Wildcat" and "Bobcat" or something so someone correct me on that. Of course they were all pretty much the same, but we were all doing some crazy stuff and having great fun.

Here's the thing; we also debated about length of wire versus number of turns as a methodology but then as now I came to a different conclusion altogether. Keeping in mind that whatever method we chose, the last wrap had to end at the commutator tab...the most important thing for me was to practice "patterns". If you chose to go by length of wire and your patterns varied from pole-to-pole, you might wind up ending at the bottom of the stack on your last wrap. Working out "patterns" that you could duplicate from pole-to-pole would assure good consistency as far as length and resistance. Those "patterns" would include things like how many turns for the first, second and third etc. "layers". The number would change from layer to layer and "how far" you went over the previous layer...end before or after the bottom layer's last wind etc. They also would include how and where you would make your "turnbacks" (the method you use to change directions at the end of each layer and start winding back in the opposite direction) and even how you ended at the com tabs (you could simply run over the tab, do a complete "loop" around each tab or cut the wire at each tab and start a new length of wire for the next pole). This got a bit more difficult with double winds...I don't think I ever did any triples (quads anyone?)...as there were more things to consider.

On the epoxy, the stuff that you could simply buy in the hardware store (Elmer's etc.) seemed better than what is normally available now and I remember thinking it had a vaguely "peanut butter-ish" smell to it. It seems now that most commercially-available epoxies (Devcon etc.) are more geared towards easy working and curing rather than strength and heat resistance. I also recall some white and grey-ish epoxies that seemed to have even better properties but I always thought they made the arms ugly as hell. I know it sounds stupid now to even care what color the epoxy is, but I wanted them to look nice anyway :blink: I always baked my arms which causes the epoxy to at first become much less viscous and flow into the winds better...as well as speed-up the cure and increase the hardness of the final cured product, but quickly learned that you need to babysit the arm and flip it every little while to prevent the whole mess from running out one end of the arm :shok:

For balancing, Rick here (R Geo Products) recently made me a one-off balancing block that is wonderful and allows for greater precision and better results than using a wood block or worse yet...a lump of clay to stick the razor blades in :D Of course now we also have things like Kevlar to tie the arm with and even (with a lot of looking around) high-temperature epoxies...not to mention endbells that don't melt on command.

Steve O'Keefe ("arodyn") here has done some beautiful winds he showed me some pictures of...not unlike his amazing chassis builds (see the "puzzle pan" build) and Ron Hershman and others have really good info on wind specifics they're all too willing to share, as opposed to the secrecy my buddies and I practiced back then when one of us stumbled on something that actually worked :-) Pablo and others have also done some winding recently so if you choose to try your hand at it again, there's still plenty of info around and helpful people willing to share it right here on Slotblog. Thanks for sharing your memories about winding!

-john
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#46 Phil Irvin

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 05:10 PM

:rolleyes:

I did a double 32 for 1 track I raced on that had LOUSY power. It ran away & hid from a full track of racers but qualified lousy. Usually had to work my way up. It never ran hot. I ran it so much there I wore the comm out. Never did another. Tha track finnaly went to 2 deep cycle batteries used in golf carts. Then came a few 27 & 28 guage on a Mura .007 lamanition .460 stack with 35 deg. timing.They did good as long as I had the Mura brushes with the pig tail (shunt cast in). I had a unimat 3 jaw lathe to cut comms with....wish they had diamond tip tools back then BUT....I made a jig to mount a Dremel with a FINE stone to grind the stacks. Worm clamps can do wonderfull things....Found a speed control at Grangers to slow the Dremil down. Worked wonders.........

MAN..you opened some old doors. (memories)

61 & called a rookie,
PHIL

#47 havlicek

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 07:27 PM

MAN..you opened some old doors. (memories)


...yeah, I can almost smell the melted plastic :D

-john
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#48 Phil Irvin

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 09:27 PM

:shok:

I ain't got enough fingers & toes to count on.......... :blush:

PHIL I.


#49 havlicek

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 09:02 PM

I just finished a nice #26 awg on an older Mura blank with a Kirkwood com. I have to balance it tomorrow after the epoxy is post-cured in the oven, but this was one of those arms that just looked kinda neat (I think).

Posted Image

-john
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#50 JerseyJohn

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 09:39 PM

I just finished a nice #26 awg on an older Mura blank with a Kirkwood com. I have to balance it tomorrow after the epoxy is post-cured in the oven, but this was one of those arms that just looked kinda neat (I think).

Posted Image

-john

that sure is purdy John
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