Jump to content




Photo

Motor rotation


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 06 February 2019 - 05:58 PM

Larry Shephard posted long time ago a great image that I have hanging on my wall that states that Positive power is always on the right side of the guide shoe!
Bang, that is a solid and so far, I have never messed up.

Now, we need to discuss the definitive statement for motor rotation when it comes to arm timing and arm rewinding.
John Havlicek, please post your opinion when you feel comfortable.
This comes up because a lot of older slot car guys are discussing it on Facebook right now and showing their confusion as well.

I always believed that rotation (CW vs. CCW) was viewed from the can end.  But Rick Thigpen corrected me back in the 2006 or so saying it came by viewing from the endbell.
That fly's in the face of the fact that nearly all second and third generation Mabuchi cans have the arrow stamped on the brass bearing carrier... but never mind that.

Following Rick's statement then, all vintage motors were CCW!  Which explains why, when anglewinders were first developed... the endbell was on the right side of the chassis.  (no brainer)
But... it made sense that when can-drive showed up.... a CW arm made the possibility of a more solid mounting point possible using the can and.... moved the weight more to the rear.
Boom! Mind blown.
But, now... what to do with all those CCW motors already being produced?  Why... make can drive be on the left side of the chassis!  Simple fix.
Champion even marketed a chassis that could mount the motor either way. :shok:

To this day, all Flexi cars are can drive and mounted with the drive to the left making the arm spin CCW and making all but a few vintage arms CCW.
Very rare that any would be CW in my opinion, but explaining why some vintage arms are marked "CW or CCW".

What say you?


Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!





#2 Pablo

Pablo

    Builder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,414 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johnson Bayou, Mississippi Gulf Coast

Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:14 PM

Whenever anyone says CCW or CW, it's useless info unless they specify which end of the motor they are referencing, EB or can. I know H always references from the EB, so when he says one way or the other, I know for sure what he means.

 

As far as arms being marked CW or CCW, I've never seen one. It's easy enough to look at the timing and tell which way it is designed to spin.

 

Doesn't surprize me people on Facebook are confused. The smart kidz are all right here on Slotblog :sun_bespectacled:


Paul Wolcott

#3 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:40 PM

Careful Paul, some of them are slotblog members. :unsure:


Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#4 old & gray

old & gray

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 610 posts
  • Joined: 15-April 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CT

Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:47 PM

I always believed that rotation (CW vs. CCW) was viewed from the can end.  But Rick Thigpen corrected me back in the 2006 or so saying it came by viewing from the endbell.
That fly's in the face of the fact that nearly all second and third generation Mabuchi cans have the arrow stamped on the brass bearing carrier... but never mind that.

Following Rick's statement then, all vintage motors were CCW!  Which explains why, when anglewinders were first developed... the endbell was on the right side of the chassis.  (no brainer)
But... it made sense that when can-drive showed up.... a CW arm made the possibility of a more solid mounting point possible using the can and.... moved the weight more to the rear.
Boom! Mind blown.

 

What say you?

 

 

As I remember rotation direction was always referenced to the endbell side of the motor. Why? Maybe because the early motors had the pinion on the endbell side, maybe because you can’t tell the direction of rotation looking at the can end of an amature.

 

When the anglewinders started, the local armatures were Mura and Cobra which were CCW. The track owner would sell Lenz armatures at a reduced price since they were CW and I had a couple of good motors with these armatures. Time frame for this is 1968 to 1970, and the car I ran in the Parma race in 1970 was CW. Since I was building my own chassis at that time I could build a CW car.


  • Jesse Gonzales likes this
Bob Schlain

#5 Jesse Gonzales

Jesse Gonzales

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 311 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:AZ

Posted 06 February 2019 - 07:45 PM

In the old days it was as said above, endbell view. Lenz armatures were CW while Mura's were CCW when used in an inline it was no big deal. When the anglewinder came out pretty much everyone ran endbell drive until it was believed that by placing the can end on the inside of the donut on a king it would be better. Both directions were fast so it was quite possible to build motors that gave you different gyro effect to suit your track.

 

Jesse Gonzales


  • Pablo likes this

#6 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,140 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 06 February 2019 - 08:19 PM

Whenever anyone says CCW or CW, it's useless info unless they specify which end of the motor they are referencing, EB or can. I know H always references from the EB, so when he says one way or the other, I know for sure what he means.

 

As far as arms being marked CW or CCW, I've never seen one. It's easy enough to look at the timing and tell which way it is designed to 

When mentioning CW & CCW, I too specify whether I'm looking at the endbell end or can end. Less chance of confusion to myself & others that way..

 

Thorpe arms were marked CW & CCW during the early & mid-70s, maybe others did too.. They often wound arms with the same wind timed in either direction. In those days Thorpe placed little plates (phenolic?) between arm stacks before epoxying. On one plate they indicated the wire gauge used, on another CW or CCW. I don't recall Thorpe engraving their stacks for anything, as others did.

 

I always wondered, but never read, why Lenz arms were always timed  CW. I assumed it had something to do with the high speed tracks in the SFB area where they ran Chotis & other thingies. 


  • Jesse Gonzales likes this
Bill Fernald
 
"I'm not short, I'm just down to earth."

#7 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,817 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 06 February 2019 - 08:53 PM

 

 

I always believed that rotation (CW vs. CCW) was viewed from the can end.  But Rick Thigpen corrected me back in the 2006 or so saying it came by viewing from the endbell.
That fly's in the face of the fact that nearly all second and third generation Mabuchi cans have the arrow stamped on the brass bearing carrier... but never mind that.

 

Rick is correct as far as I know Jairus :)...BUT...I've never seen it written down as law, so it's only a convention.  ***Having the convention DOES make for some convenience, or it *would* if everyone followed it, but they don't, and confusion over this is still out there to this day.   Oh and, the FT16/36D motors had the CCW (*as viewed from the EB :) ) arrow on the can end because they were the first motors from Mabuchi that were made with the ability to be can drive and had provision for that mounting...so it doesn't at all fly in the face of anything.  The rest of what you mention is interesting stuff, but...well...not interesting enough to me to have made me research it so I haven't a clue.  :)


John Havlicek

#8 Ramcatlarry

Ramcatlarry

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,273 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Charles, IL 60174

Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:54 PM

Standardization of track wiring is still in progress.  In the 1960s, Positive/right braid was an option that many builders had differing opinions about.  The 1990s brought some sense of conformity to the Positive right braid standard of the Southport Racing Club (England) of the 1950s.

 

In the beginning many slotcar motors were transplanted from trains and boats and other uses.  The first scratchbuilt cars were primarily INLINE mounted motors.  Flipping the crown gear for the best running car was quite common as were neutral timing motors that ran OK either direction.

 

Many HO and other homeset racing sets are still factory wired for the 'wrong' polarity.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... (for now)
race directing around Chicago-land

 

Diode/Omni repair specialist
USRA 2017 member #404
USSCA  member

Host 2006 ISRA/USA Nats
Great Lakes Slot Car Club member
60+ year pin Racing rail/slot cars in America


#9 Zippity

Zippity

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,756 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:19 PM

Here in NZ, most, if not all tracks are powered POSITIVE to the left braid in the direction of travel :)


Ron Thornton

#10 Mark Wampler

Mark Wampler

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,103 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Santa Maria, CA

Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:06 AM

Here in NZ, most, if not all tracks are powered POSITIVE to the left braid in the direction of travel :)

 

I'll have to remember that next time I race in NZ.   Is red, black and white terminals different too?  Just asking :)


You can quote me.

-Mark

#11 Zippity

Zippity

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,756 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 07 February 2019 - 01:37 PM

Green, Purple and Yellow.

 

Just joking :D



#12 Mark Wampler

Mark Wampler

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,103 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Santa Maria, CA

Posted 07 February 2019 - 01:49 PM

Green, Purple and Yellow.

 

Just joking :D

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:   Barney is green and purple.  Good enough !  (Barney is the imaginary dinosaur, a favorite kid's personality)


You can quote me.

-Mark

#13 Dan Miller

Dan Miller

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 118 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 09

Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:44 PM

I just read all of the above comments about what standard armature rotation may be and you guys now have me so confused !!!!!!

 

After 40 years of making armatures, I am quite happy that the damned things turn over and spin around, let alone in whatever direction. When I think back, I have only made my armatures rotate in one direction. Can never remember winding a single one in reverse. In the early years, a few of the armature makers of the day did wind CW and CCW arms. Bob Green at Mura suggested to me that it was determined by looking at the endbell. Many of the early slot motors were judged by the manufacturers by looking at the can end.

 

If the wires attach to a DC motor at one end, where the brushes are, then is that not the end that direction of rotation should be judged by?    

 

.


  • Jesse Gonzales likes this





Electric Dreams Online Shop